Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[FaT_tONle]

Jean never had any REAL control did she? Besides for a moment of lucidness here or there, we've already established that Jean had no real control through most of the movie. But we are speculating that she had some influence, at least enough to bog up the works for Wolverine, right? And why does she have this influence in the lab and at the end for Wolverine... and not for Cyclops, who X2, supposedly clearly illustrates that Jean chooses Scott? Wouldn't you have MORE influence for the man you love than just a guy you want to have sex with?

Look... everyone agrees this scene was incomplete... we can only speculate... we can whine all day about why this wasn't shown or why that wasn't shown but w/e... they ****ed it up... so we speculate ofcoarse... we all have our opinions but I think the reason it was left out was just to foreshadow the true powers of the Pheonix... I'm sorry Cyke fans and true Xmen fans were ****ed over...

 

[Jan Irisi]

Jean never had any REAL control did she? Besides for a moment of lucidness here or there, we've already established that Jean had no real control through most of the movie. But we are speculating that she had some influence, at least enough to bog up the works for Wolverine, right? And why does she have this influence in the lab and at the end for Wolverine... and not for Cyclops, who X2, supposedly clearly illustrates that Jean chooses Scott? Wouldn't you have MORE influence for the man you love than just a guy you want to have sex with?

The problem is..."Good" Jean apparently little control. "Bad" Jean didn't want Wolverine dead. She just wanted him period. "Good" Jean seemingly did not have enough control over "Bad" Jean to keep her from frying Scott, but was still able to reach out to Wolverine, who "Bad" Jean had no intention of killing in the first place.

*reads above....implodes*

 

[undomiel]

Wolverine = Lust = Pheonix

Cyclops = Love = Jean Grey

I hardly feel like arguing this point anymore. Those of you who read my posts know I don't believe it. I've come to view it as an artificial construct of those who prefer to idealize the Jean/Scott relationship.

 

[FaT_tONle]

The problem is..."Good" Jean apparently little control. "Bad" Jean didn't want Wolverine dead. She just wanted him period. "Good" Jean seemingly did not have enough control over "Bad" Jean to keep her from frying Scott, but was still able to reach out to Wolverine, who "Bad" Jean had no intention of killing in the first place.

*reads above....implodes*

again the explanation for this and any other theory out there is incomplete... the explanation is not presented in the movies... we can dig out evidence in this film or the previous two but it will remain unclear... just one of those things that will always be talked about...

 

[Endeavor]

... but really... you honestly think that??? I'm appauled...

Yes I do:
1-It was incoherent in and of itself(Xavier stressing that Jean must control it herself only to have that ignored in the end, the Cure eliminating th mutant threat but not really, etc.)
2-It lacked logical progression of world events when held in comparison with X2 (the Dark Cerebro incident was completely ignored as if it had no effect on human-mutant relations... IE: It makes no sense to have a more tolerant administration and have a relatively calmer atmosphere for mutants when month before a mutant incident had claimed probably thousands of lives)
3- This one I don't even have to explain but since you asked it fails when comparing it to the franchise as a whole because it completely missed several key issues involved in this storyline, a big one being the redemption of Jean Grey by showing that her soul and good nature were ultimately stronger than the god-like powers at her dispossal.

So yeah, I honestly believe it failed in all categories (and you just got the mega-short-stupedly-simplified explanation).

 

[D-scythe]

Yes!!! Now you're talkin'! Allow me to encourage you to elaborate, if you don't mind.

Elaborate on what? It was simply an opinion, not a fact. I can state mine too - look - "I think Logan was so overblown in this movie that even though I like him as an X-character he should burn in hell for what he did to a Phoenix story." Doesn't make it valid, does it? You want me to elaborate more on that too?

Anyway, all your pro-Logan/Jean talk is stupid. Jean was schizophrenic - to use Phoenix, whom is clearly an aspect of her schizophrenic condition that have manifested, as "proof" that Jean really wanted to be Logan is scientifically the dumbest thing to say possible.

There, I said it. To say Phoenix is proof of Jean's love for Logan when it is clearly an aspect of Jean's schizophrenia is the most ILLOGICAL thing one can say.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

The Phoenix side was controlling her most of the movie...you said it yourself. That side is all lust, anger, and control. So, she went after Wolverine. I believe she would have tried to kill Logan in the Medical Bay if he had not stopped their make out session. Scott cannot heal either like Logan can. So a Phoenix kiss to Scott can be a lot more fatal than one to Wolverine.

That is exactily what my post suggest, but you missed most of this conversation where we established that I also believe Jean was manipulating things under the surface, through the WHOLE movie... if so why did she not manipulate for Cyclops?
I question your medical bay scenario... tried to kill?? why would she have to try to kill him. I believe the only thing that stopped her from killing him, was that he WAS getting to the other Jean, which is exactly the way it seemed to be depicted.

That makes me wonder too Did Scott eyeblast the b**** and send them both backwards a good ways(Scott into the forest and Jean down the shore)?

Dang it, I was saving this for later, I wanted to finish this convo first... but that is exactly what I think happened.

 

[D-scythe]

I hardly feel like arguing this point anymore. Those of you who read my posts know I don't believe it. I've come to view it as an artificial construct of those who prefer to idealize the Jean/Scott relationship.

Nope, the only "artificial construct" is Jean/Logan. Just because schizo Jean came onto Logan doesn't mean normal Jean loves Logan. But thanks for trying to sound smart though.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Nope, the only "artificial construct" is Jean/Logan. Just because schizo Jean came onto Logan doesn't mean normal Jean loves Logan. But thanks for trying to sound smart though.

Please stop with the insults. Please? It just isn't needed.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Look... everyone agrees this scene was incomplete... we can only speculate... we can whine all day about why this wasn't shown or why that wasn't shown but w/e... they ****ed it up... so we speculate ofcoarse... we all have our opinions but I think the reason it was left out was just to foreshadow the true powers of the Pheonix... I'm sorry Cyke fans and true Xmen fans were ****ed over...

whoa...I'm not whining, I'm replaying the logic, because I'm actually trying to go somewhere with this. But since you bring it up, if I were going to whine, then it would be at how crappy a thing to do to leave such and important concept 'incomplete' in the movie.

The problem is..."Good" Jean apparently little control. "Bad" Jean didn't want Wolverine dead. She just wanted him period. "Good" Jean seemingly did not have enough control over "Bad" Jean to keep her from frying Scott, but was still able to reach out to Wolverine, who "Bad" Jean had no intention of killing in the first place.

*reads above....implodes*

So then we're back to the two things:

-Good Jean wants Wolverine to help her by stopping the madness. Bad Jean either doesn't care or is 'hot' for him and this is why she doesn't make him go BYE BYE!

- Cyclops only had Good Jean to which had no real control. Bad Jean wants to Vaporize him... because of what again? She wants to get rid of her old life? But She still wants Wolverine? She's still wearing her old tampon?

 

[FaT_tONle]

Yes I do:
1-It was incoherent in and of itself(Xavier stressing that Jean must control it herself only to have that ignored in the end, the Cure eliminating th mutant threat but not really, etc.)
2-It lacked logical progression of world events when held in comparison with X2 (the Dark Cerebro incident was completely ignored as if it had no effect on human-mutant relations... IE: It makes no sense to have a more tolerant administration and have a relatively calmer atmosphere for mutants when month before a mutant incident had claimed probably thousands of lives)
3- This one I don't even have to explain but since you asked it fails when comparing it to the franchise as a whole because it completely missed several key issues involved in this storyline, a big one being the redemption of Jean Grey by showing that her soul and good nature were ultimately stronger than the god-like powers at her dispossal.

So yeah, I honestly believe it failed in all categories (and you just got the mega-short-stupedly-simplified explanation).

2. Xavier's message to the President... which also involved evidence... suggested that Stryker was responsible for the attack and that the Brotherhood continued it... that's why the new Preseident focuses their primary threat on Magneto and his brotherhood... kinda like the war on terrorism... we only target a select few instead of just hating everyone in that region entirely...

1/3 go together... the redemtion element was missing... but very subtle... Jean eventually subdues the Pheonix's powers just enough for Logan to finish her off... it's there but don't tell me it was completely left out

 

[undomiel]

I agree with you, I think this is exactly the thought process the writer's intended. That's why I asked earlier do you all think that Phoenix (bad Jean) was just sooo enamored by Wolverine and that it was all her persona that kept the her from vaporizing him initially.

Good Jean, although not seen alot, was back there pulling the strings. Phoenix was driving but she was still being manipulated by the Jean Grey we all know and love. But if this is all true, and it is Jean who is somehow keeping Phoenix in check... then here is my biggest problem with this... WHY KILL SCOTT?

I like this idea! One thing's for sure -- we have to understand the writers' intentions and how they are conceiving the relationship between Jean and Dark Phoenix. Is it one nature, two essences, or is it one essence with two natures, etc.? It's almost like the Council of Nicaea! It's really hard to interpret anything else without knowing that, but I'm not sure we can know until the writers themselves explain it. So we're all just kind of speculating to some degree.

But to answer your question, well, I almost hate to say it (almost ), but I think it suggests that her (good Jean's) love for Wolverine was deeper than her love for Scott. Not that she didn't try to hold Phoenix back from killing Scott, but that she must have summoned an even more massive effort to spare Wolverine, that is, if this line of reasoning is correct to begin with.

 

[D-scythe]

Please stop with the insults. Please? It just isn't needed.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone. What's a good discussion without some bite to it?

 

[Lil_Flip246]

I enjoyed it. But I would've preferred Cyclops vs. Jean even though I'm not a fan of Cyclops. I'd rather have any1 but the STAR WOLVERINE!!

 

[Jan Irisi]

- Cyclops only had Good Jean to which had no real control. Bad Jean wants to Vaporize him... because of what again? She wants to get rid of her old life? But She still wants Wolverine? She's still wearing her old tampon?

Bad Jean is pissed about the control she had been put under. Scott, Storm or anyone from the supposed "happy life" at the mansion was just an extension of that control. She probably would have zapped anyone who was associated with that life. Wolverine on the other hand does not really represent that former "controlled" life. He is the outsider, the animal. Wild and unrestrained. She "Bad" Jean) sees anything that can be associated with her "controlled" life to be a threat. She does not associate Logan as being a threat to her.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Nope, the only "artificial construct" is Jean/Logan. Just because schizo Jean came onto Logan doesn't mean normal Jean loves Logan. But thanks for trying to sound smart though.

Hence, she didn't say "I love you" back. Whew. She might have imagined in her mind Scott's voice saying the exact words"I love you", which if he was there infront of her, he would say it cause he means it.

...

Question...Some posters in this forum thought of this...do some of you think that the real Jean is still down there at the bottom of Alkali Lake? Just curious. thats all.

...

I honestly have no idea what else to say... -sighs- I wish Jean's relationship with Scott was more explored and expanded and more so with Logan but come on atleast balance them out. Make it consistant in terms of the time span over the course of the films and in between. y'know...? ... -shrugs- just my thoughts.

 

[FaT_tONle]

-Good Jean wants Wolverine to help her by stopping the madness. Bad Jean either doesn't care or is 'hot' for him and this is why she doesn't make him go BYE BYE!

- Cyclops only had Good Jean to which had no real control. Bad Jean wants to Vaporize him... because of what again? She wants to get rid of her old life? But She still wants Wolverine? She's still wearing her old tampon?

Yeah these are pretty much the main questions... now the only thing that remains is will we ever get an answer??? I think good Jean wants wolvy to stop her madness... and maybe it is as simple as that... Pheonix wants to rid away everything about old Jean... but then why didn't she pull the trigger on Logan... maybe Jean exerted more control... maybe Pheonix just said it wasn't worth it... who knows... we probably will never know...

 

[undomiel]

Elaborate on what? It was simply an opinion, not a fact. I can state mine too - look - "I think Logan was so overblown in this movie that even though I like him as an X-character he should burn in hell for what he did to a Phoenix story." Doesn't make it valid, does it? You want me to elaborate more on that too?

Anyway, all your pro-Logan/Jean talk is stupid. Jean was schizophrenic - to use Phoenix, whom is clearly an aspect of her schizophrenic condition that have manifested, as "proof" that Jean really wanted to be Logan is scientifically the dumbest thing to say possible.

There, I said it. To say Phoenix is proof of Jean's love for Logan when it is clearly an aspect of Jean's schizophrenia is the most ILLOGICAL thing one can say.

Ummm...that's not what I was saying. And I wasn't asking for you to elaborate -- I was asking for GhostPoet to elaborate on his/her opinion. Please don't bash. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Bad Jean is pissed about the control she had been put under. Scott, Storm or anyone from the supposed "happy life" at the mansion was just an extension of that control. She probably would have zapped anyone who was associated with that life. Wolverine on the other hand does not really represent that former "controlled" life. He is the outsider, the animal. Wild and unrestrained. She "Bad" Jean) sees anything that can be associated with her "controlled" life to be a threat. She does not associate Logan as being a threat to her.

That's the logical explanantion... instead of asking why didn't she kill Logan? we should ask... why would she kill Logan??? Just b/c she killed everyone else isn't a good enough explanation to me

 

[undomiel]

Bad Jean is pissed about the control she had been put under. Scott, Storm or anyone from the supposed "happy life" at the mansion was just an extension of that control. She probably would have zapped anyone who was associated with that life. Wolverine on the other hand does not really represent that former "controlled" life. He is the outsider, the animal. Wild and unrestrained. She "Bad" Jean) sees anything that can be associated with her "controlled" life to be a threat. She does not associate Logan as being a threat to her.

Yes, that's kind of what I've been trying to say...

 

[undomiel]

Hence, she didn't say "I love you" back. Whew. She might have imagined in her mind Scott's voice saying the exact words"I love you", which if he was there infront of her, he would say it cause he means it.

...

Question...Some posters in this forum thought of this...do some of you think that the real Jean is still down there at the bottom of Alkali Lake? Just curious. thats all.

...

I honestly have no idea what else to say... -sighs- I wish Jean's relationship with Scott was more explored and expanded and more so with Logan but come on atleast balance them out. Make it consistant in terms of the time span over the course of the films and in between. y'know...? ... -shrugs- just my thoughts.

You hit on a very interesting topic. Yes, I think it's possible that the real Jean Grey might be stashed somewhere else, bottom of the lake or a cave somewhere...but, yes, I'd say it's a distinct possibility.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Do people really think it's possible to bring back these characters again... how could anyone take that seriously... Jean is dead... Cyke is dead... I'm not one to say bring em back just to make it comic book accurate... what's done is done... we should just move on from here with these two and focus on why this happened instead of wishing it were different

 

[The Last Meatbag]

Should have been Cyclops but nooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Kinberg said, not all fates are what they seem...or something like that. ...

In the words of Jean: I don't know...

 

[FaT_tONle]

THese writers ****ed a lot it up so I frankly have lost all faith in them... but there is absolutely no way you can legitimately include these two back into a script... no sinister cloning Cyke or Hellfire club ressurecting Jean... maybe the pheonix alone... but not Jean...