Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[GhostPoet]

We are in the same frequency here. I totally share your excitement regarding those two dramatic and powerful scenes.

Maybe some people just don't have any romance in their blood and just don't get the scenes? :P

 

[undomiel]

Just wondering....

That's cool. It's all very pertinent to our discussion here, but I think we have to be careful not to assume that the writers of the story are going by the DSM or any other medical model to construct their story line. After all, we're dealing with superpowers here; is it really reasonable to expect the mutants to conform to human diagnoses of mental illness? I think not.

 

[undomiel]

Maybe some people just don't have any romance in their blood and just don't get the scenes? :P

Spoken like a true poet!

 

[JimB]

Maybe some people just don't have any romance in their blood and just don't get the scenes? :P

Probably

 

[pyro9vivacita]

I hated that scene too, and when Wolverine said that he's the only one that can stop her,it's Bull****.

Who else could have stoped her...She killed Proff. X!!!!!(not really)
Wolverine I think was t he best choice because of the healing factor.
Storm....no Why? because she would have died faster than Prof X Then all the Storm fans would be mad.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Who else could have stoped her...She killed Proff. X!!!!!(not really)
Wolverine I think was t he best choice because of the healing factor.
Storm....no Why? because she would have died faster than Prof X Then all the Storm fans would be mad.

thats what I thought... but again they should have slowed the healing part of it down. lol

 

[D-scythe]

It has never been declared that Jean was "schizophrenic". And seeing as you have already pointed out the difference between schizophrenia and mpd, you will agree with me when I correct you to point out that even if Jean was schizophrenic (as you claim) she would not be considered two different people, as in a case of mpd.

Yes, she would not be considered 2 different people, but you cannot use the actions of one personality/aspect of her mental condition to "prove" that Jean as a whole actually loved Logan, or whatever. It's just not logical.

One more thing - even if Jean wasn't schizo, the logic still applies. Obviously she had some sort of mental condition, whether it be schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder or whatever. You simply cannot use one of her "personalities" to justify what Jean thought as a whole person.

You cannot say that he loved all of her, because he didn't know all of her. You are merely speculating. And when you say you are positive he wouldn't be able to kill Jean, you are undermining his love for her, because we know that that is what Jean truly wanted.

Are you kidding? If you really love someone, would you kill them, even if she/he wanted it? I certainly wouldn't be able to - get someone else to do it, but hell, not me.

 

[GhostPoet]

On the healing thing...one thing i've noticed in the trilogy is that it seems Logan's Healing Factor MAY be connected to his adrenaline. When he got tossed out of the windshield of the truck in X1...he seemed fairly calm...his healing was somewhat slow. Later in X1 when he stabs himself to break free and fight Sabertooth he seems to heal very quickly. I don't think it's an inconsistency...I think this version of Wolverine has a healing factor directly connected to his bodies adrenaline.

In the last scene of X3 we see Wolverine walking up to Jean/Phoenix being torn apart a bit. His adrenaline has to be pumping at full strength in that scene.

It's my theory.

 

[ZeroCorpse]

On the healing thing...one thing i've noticed in the trilogy is that it seems Logan's Healing Factor MAY be connected to his adrenaline. When he got tossed out of the windshield of the truck in X1...he seemed fairly calm...his healing was somewhat slow. Later in X1 when he stabs himself to break free and fight Sabertooth he seems to heal very quickly. I don't think it's an inconsistency...I think this version of Wolverine has a healing factor directly connected to his bodies adrenaline.

In the last scene of X3 we see Wolverine walking up to Jean/Phoenix being torn apart a bit. His adrenaline has to be pumping at full strength in that scene.

It's my theory.

It's a pretty sound theory, too. I dig it.

 

[Jan Irisi]

On the healing thing...one thing i've noticed in the trilogy is that it seems Logan's Healing Factor MAY be connected to his adrenaline. When he got tossed out of the windshield of the truck in X1...he seemed fairly calm...his healing was somewhat slow. Later in X1 when he stabs himself to break free and fight Sabertooth he seems to heal very quickly. I don't think it's an inconsistency...I think this version of Wolverine has a healing factor directly connected to his bodies adrenaline.

In the last scene of X3 we see Wolverine walking up to Jean/Phoenix being torn apart a bit. His adrenaline has to be pumping at full strength in that scene.

It's my theory.

Don't forget about his Deathstrike fight too. He was getting skewered something fierce there, but he kept going. He was in pain, but still kept going. I think you may be onto something there.

 

[D-scythe]

In the last scene of X3 we see Wolverine walking up to Jean/Phoenix being torn apart a bit. His adrenaline has to be pumping at full strength in that scene.

Um, not sure I agree his adrenaline would be pumping as he walked up to Jean (i.e. no fight-or-flight triggers, and adrenaline isn't triggered by pain), he seemed pretty determined and, well, if not exactly calm, then he wasn't exactly angry/looking for a fight either.

But it's a sound theory and it definitely has its merits.

 

[GhostPoet]

Um, not sure I agree his adrenaline would be pumping as he walked up to Jean (i.e. no fight-or-flight triggers, and adrenaline isn't triggered by pain), he seemed pretty determined and, well, if not exactly calm, then he wasn't exactly angry/looking for a fight either.

But it's a sound theory and it definitely has its merits.

Yeah, that was something I was thinking about too. But Adrenaline isn't just based off of rage. Full determination can really give the body just as much adrenaline. (that plus his love for jean, which is a lot of adrenaline in itself)

Kind of in the same instance in real life where you hear people do these amazing things...lifting a car off a guy, or lifting something they would normally never be able to lift in order to save someone. Determination is pretty powerful.

 

[D-scythe]

Yeah, that was something I was thinking about too. But Adrenaline isn't just based off of rage. Full determination can really give the body just as much adrenaline. (that plus his love for jean, which is a lot of adrenaline in itself)

Kind of in the same instance in real life where you hear people do these amazing things...lifting a car off a guy, or lifting something they would normally never be able to lift in order to save someone. Determination is pretty powerful.

Yup, you're absolutely right. Many things can trigger adrenaline, either directly or indirectly, so your theory is entirely plausible, and probably better than anything Marvel can come up with anyway

 

[Endeavor]

Just on the subject of Rogue...which Rogue are you using to compare the movie version to? There are plenty of comic versions of Rogue out there.

You keep talking about canon from the cartoon and comics. Which one? There are lots of alternate storylines in the comics...which "canon" are you refering to?

Why can't you just admit that the movies are just another one of the MANY alternate storylines and not based in any one comic series alternate reality?

Are you purposedly ignoring everything I said or did you just get confused with all the other dialogues taking place at the same time? Yes I can in fact admit that the movie(s) are an "alternate reality" as you put it. I've stated very clearly several times now (first to you and later to Fat_One) that I viewed this movie from 3 different viewpoints.

I did mention the previous 2 movies in my post.
I'm looking at X3 from different angles: As a stand alone film, as part of the trilogy (taking into account X1 and X2 continuity) and as part of the broader X-Men franchise (including the cartoons and comics).
For me, this film comes up short in all categories.

Only one of those perspectives makes a comparison to the comics and cartoon's stories (or their versions of said stories). Again, that's just ONE of the mindsets I judged this film by, but not the only one. I can still enjoy a film that deviates from the source material. I wouldn't be a fan of X1 and X2 if that were not the case.
But this particular point which you chose to scrutinize speaks directly to a critique based on the source material. Now that we're on the same page (I hope) let's discuss it further and specifically answer the part of your question that asked 'which version of Rogue' I was referencing. (Please don't even bother answering to this if you're going to go back to the old and tired 'but this is just a movie' and 'you have to accept it's an alternate version' type of comment. That's understood and in this discussion irrelevant since I've made it painfully clear that we're now talking about how X3 measures up when compared to the source material... ok?) Which Rogue version was I comparing it to? Try this: All of them. Yes we've had several interpretations of the character. In the comics she started as a middle aged woman and was quickly retconned into an introverted troubled girl. Throughout the years she blossomed into a strong woman in more than just physical strength, but still a troubled woman who was as much cursed as blessed. We've seen her reinterpreted as Superman with big breasts and as a feisty goth girl. But at her core, Rogue was always the same. Yes she hates her powers, yes she's lonely, yes she's wished things were different but she has never in any of her incarnations been a coward, a sellout or taken the easy way out. This 'cure' scenario has presented itself in the comics many times, in one way or another, even before the Whedon storyline. Rogue has always been tempted, but never gone through with it voluntarily. The issue was handled differently in TAS (the 90s animated series) than in the comics, but in the end Rogue rejected Dr. Adler's cure in Muir Island because she realized that her powers, although troublesome to her, contributed to the greater good. So she made that self sacrifice... She made the Hero's choice... And that's the thing about Rogue, now matter how the story starts, whether she's a villain, a brat or a punk, she always ends up being a Hero. Can you say the same about Rogue in X3, the movie that was supposed to 'close the storyarcs' for all these characters? Now you might argue that X1 and X2 Rogue were also different than the comics and cartoon versions (even though that would be cheating since now you're comparing X3 to the previous movies and we've established that this discussion is specific to the comics and cartoons..). But even in those films you see a slow progression into the Rogue that had to pull through at the end. You see her getting more comfortable with her power by actually actively using it, you see her willing to take on Magneto and showing an inkling of that 'i'm going to kick your ass' personality. But in X3, the movie that's supposed to evolve her story and close her arc, what do you see? She sells out because she wants to be able to touch her boyfriend. That's it.
It's as bad as replacing Cyclops with Wolverine, as bad as turning Phoenix/Jean into a goon and as bad as taking the redemption part away from the Phoenix storyline by making her need a savior... it's that bad.
So yeah, when compared to the source material, this film doesn't pass the grade in my class because not only does it violate the principle of any good reinterpretation (it doesn't keep the core themes intact) but the stories it does tell don't end up being anywhere near half as interesting as the original concepts.
'Nuff Said

 

[Angry Sentinel]

I would give real money for the writers to give me their version of the final scene where Wolverine 'weather's the storm' and makes it close enough to Phoenix to kill her. I want their words on what they intended us to think.., if we were intended to think at all, or was it just about delivering their big emo ending.

 

[undomiel]

Yes, she would not be considered 2 different people, but you cannot use the actions of one personality/aspect of her mental condition to "prove" that Jean as a whole actually loved Logan, or whatever. It's just not logical.

I never said that. You must have misunderstood me.

One more thing - even if Jean wasn't schizo, the logic still applies. Obviously she had some sort of mental condition, whether it be schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder or whatever. You simply cannot use one of her "personalities" to justify what Jean thought as a whole person.

You're still claiming Jean has multiple personalities -- we don't know that.



Are you kidding? If you really love someone, would you kill them, even if she/he wanted it? I certainly wouldn't be able to - get someone else to do it, but hell, not me.

Yes, if the situation warranted it. Jean was capable of killing masses of people -- she had to be stopped. Not killing her would have been the selfish, weak thing to do. To kill her was a tremendous sacrifice.

 

[D-scythe]

Yes, if the situation warranted it. Jean was capable of killing masses of people -- she had to be stopped. Not killing her would have been the selfish, weak thing to do. To kill her was a tremendous sacrifice.

How is not killing her a "selfish, weak thing" to do? Yes, your lover's reasons for killing herself may be entirely sound and rational, and yes, you can agree that she should die, but that doesn't mean you have to execute the action yourself.

 

[undomiel]

I would give real money for the writers to give me their version of the final scene where Wolverine 'weather's the storm' and makes it close enough to Phoenix to kill her. I want their words on what they intended us to think.., if we were intended to think at all, or was it just about delivering their big emo ending.

You might be over-thinking it, but I like your questioning approach -- it's kind of like a detective. Things happen for a reason, and we like to know why.

Actually, I've just been thinking that maybe all this questioning was the intention of the filmmakers -- kind of like what JK Rowling does with Harry Potter. The deeper you go into the story, the more questions are raised, the more interesting it gets. If so, I will give them credit. It's intriguing.

Oh, and one more thing. I don't read comic books, but there are other ways of obtaining source material, and I did discover one very interesting thing in terms of figuring out who Jean Grey/Phoenix really is. Now of course it appears that the movie writers are not drawing from any one storyline in the comics in particular, so this could be a wash, but what I read said that the real Jean Grey is not the Jean that Logan and Storm find by the lake. It said the Phoenix force was able to put the real Jean away in a coma somewhere while Phoenix assumed not only Jean's exact physical form, but also all of her memories and personality traits as well. This is why even Xavier could not tell that she was not the real Jean when they brought her back to the school. The interesting thing is that because Phoenix assumed all of good Jean's personality traits, Phoenix sometimes desires to do what good Jean herself would do in that situation.

Interesting implications, huh?

 

[undomiel]

How is not killing her a "selfish, weak thing" to do? Yes, your lover's reasons for killing herself may be entirely sound and rational, and yes, you can agree that she should die, but that doesn't mean you have to execute the action yourself.

If you're the only person who can, you do.

 

[weatherwitch]

I think my real issue with this ending is the way in which it played out. It went against everything foreshadowed and the heart of the X-Men (the family). Given that Cyclops and Xavier were dead, I can see that the writers were given a limited scenerio in which to work with. It's a nobrainer to use the cashcow Wolverine, and with that being said, I still think the ending could have been more than it was. Much more. On a lot of levels.

 

[weatherwitch]

^^ Before anyone asks, here's how I would like to have seen it given what we had, (meaning no Cyclops or Xavier):

Wolverine does his Everest climb towards her, getting singed as he goes (that was pretty cool visually). When he gets there this is when a few shifts in tone and dialogue could have made a difference. (I'm just tossing this out there--so before you knock my screenwriting, I am not a screenwriter.)

Phoenix: "You would die for them."

Logan (vehemently and with affection for jean): "Yes. And so would you, Jean. They're your family. Remember. Don't let it control you. The professor said that. He loved you like a daughter...we all love you. Read our minds, you can feel it." (ala Endsong)

Jean: "Logan..." Touches his face (or whatever) "Thank you. I'm free." Knocks him away with a tk pulse, soars into the air. Arms spread wide, close up of her eyes going from black to normal. Whispered "Scott..." And BLAMMO, she explodes in a Phoenix firebird effect.

Emotional, holds the tone of the comic where Jean redeems herself, Wolverine still the hero in the movie and Cyclops fans wouldn't feel he was no more than ashes and dust to Jean.

But hey, that may just be me...

 

[liverlips]

None of the films have stuck to the comic chronology, so why be upset over X3's ending? The fact Jean is capable of murdering Scott, the guy she loved, shows how dangerous the Phoenix is. It wouldn't have meant as much if she whacked Wolverine. Logan may know he's not getting into those pants, but he still cares enough about her to risk his life. Besides, a quick, clean stab to the gut is more romantic than Cyke blowing her head off her shoulders.

One more thing; I don't get the gripes about Logan's ability to withstand Jean's attack. Is Logan's super-healing any less believable than Mystique changing into the Statue of Liberty?

 

[weatherwitch]

None of the films have stuck to the comic chronology, so why be upset over X3's ending? The fact Jean is capable of murdering Scott, the guy she loved, shows how dangerous the Phoenix is. It wouldn't have meant as much if she whacked Wolverine. Logan may know he's not getting into those pants, but he still cares enough about her to risk his life. Besides, a quick, clean stab to the gut is more romantic than Cyke blowing her head off her shoulders.

One more thing; I don't get the gripes about Logan's ability to withstand Jean's attack. Is Logan's super-healing any less believable than Mystique changing into the Statue of Liberty?

1. Quick, clean stabs to the gut don't kill you instantly. You suffer. He didn't jerk up to hit her heart, so I'm not sure how romantic that was. And no one wants Cyclops to be the one to kill her. In the comics Jean redeemed herself. She didn't need a big, strong man to save her. That's the point.

2. Uhm, Mystique was able to do that and more in the comics, but since it was a prescident in the film, then her shapeshifting is not that hard to believe. however, Logan took several seconds to heal from being tossed from his trucks window in X1. Not to mention after Rogue sucked him dry he was out of it, and in X2 when he's shot in the head (and the bullet didn't go all that deep, I mean adamantium skull and all) he was down and out for a few minutes. So yes, his instant fix when facing Phoenix is a bit of a stretch...

 

[Jan Irisi]

1. Quick, clean stabs to the gut don't kill you instantly. You suffer. He didn't jerk up to hit her heart, so I'm not sure how romantic that was. And no one wants Cyclops to be the one to kill her. In the comics Jean redeemed herself. She didn't need a big, strong man to save her. That's the point.

2. Uhm, Mystique was able to do that and more in the comics, but since it was a prescident in the film, then her shapeshifting is not that hard to believe. however, Logan took several seconds to heal from being tossed from his trucks window in X1. Not to mention after Rogue sucked him dry he was out of it, and in X2 when he's shot in the head (and the bullet didn't go all that deep, I mean adamantium skull and all) he was down and out for a few minutes. So yes, his instant fix when facing Phoenix is a bit of a stretch...

Did you see the conversation about a possible reason why Logan healed so fast? It's on the previous pages I believe, and certainly a plausible explanation.

 

[weatherwitch]

Did you see the conversation about a possible reason why Logan healed so fast? It's on the previous pages I believe, and certainly a plausible explanation.

Was it explained in the films? I'll go read a few pages back, but if it's just some random "well it coulda been..." crap, then I'm all set.