Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Dark Raven]

Right. A story about discriminated minorities which were based on the Civil rights era of the 60s, SHOULD have more minorities in the movie. The Fox X-Men movies did have a problem with diversity and they even white washed certain roles like Sunspot and Cecilia Reyes. The X-Men absolutely should be more diverse ala Spider-Man Homecoming.

F4? Change for the sake of change with no real reason for the changes

Just you wait and see. The F4 will be made up of different ethnicities while the X-Men will be all white.

 

[Marvel united]

The X-Men are more science fiction than an allegory only for the US civil rights movement. Only 1 in 8 American mutants should be black, and 1 in 20 Asian.
The really underrepresented demographic is Latino, especially if Xavier recruits from Mexico/South America and not just the 1 in 7 or so Americans who'd be Latino.

Uh, the main source of inspiration for the X-Men was the Civil rights era and MLK and Malcom X which Charles Xavier and Erik Lehnsherr were directly based on. Charles' philosophy is a world where mutants and humans can live together in peace exactly like MLK.

https://www.nuskool.com/learn/lesso...-civil-rights-movement-and-the-x-men-origins/

A story that is meant to be a metaphor for real life racism, bigotry, homophobia, discrimination etc should have people of color and other minorities represented. This isn't about real life statistics - the X-Men and mutants are a direct allegory to the struggle we go through as people of color and the LGTBQ community. An adaptation in 2018-2022 should reflect actual minorities. Not saying everybody should change (Scott, Jean, Logan, Kitty, Bobby [Because he's gay so he's already a minority]) but the majority of the cast should be multi-racial imo.

 

[MasterCat]

I don't accept that the demographics of mutants should be unrealistic because the X-Men are only an allegory for LGBTs of Color. What, are white people an inferior race that only rarely have the X-gene?

 

[Crimz]

The FF don't need to be a minority allegory like the X-Men for the characters to be diverse.

There does not need to be a reason for them to be a different race from the comics, the fact that it is an interpretation is good enough reason alone.

 

[Dark Raven]

The FF don't need to be a minority allegory like the X-Men for the characters to be diverse.

There does not need to be a reason for them to be a different race from the comics, the fact that it is an interpretation is good enough reason alone.

In other words, diversity for diversity's sake? And not because someone is the best suited for the role out of all the actors.

 

[InCali]

WRT changing race in the CBMs, it doesn't matter that much as long as the characters are done well. That being said, I think there are characters (F4 being an example) where we should generally stay with how they were portrayed in the comics. The real problem is that back in the 60s, ALL the heroes were white folk and the only people of color were stereotyped villains.

I remember the introduction of Black Panther (I have the F4 comic book) and thought he was an awesome character (though I thought his skin color looked weird in the comic). The real problem is, IMO, in the character creation angle.

 

[Iceman]

Things are going to get pretty good around here if we do finally get the F4 film we've been waiting for on the 4th attempt.

 

[Crimz]

In other words, diversity for diversity's sake? And not because someone is the best suited for the role out of all the actors.

And where did I say that?...

 

[Detective Conan]

Yes, really. Most of the ones I read in 2015 had mentioned the controversy over Jordan and the relationship between Johnny and Sue. No, not a knock. But it was mentioned which is a testament to how widespread it was.

lol, what? What are you even trying to say here? Unless the reviewers criticized the casting of a black actor and had a problem with it(which no sane minded reviewer would do) it's rather hard to see your point here.

As if the internet doesn't matter and is some niche thing? Of course the general audiences generally won't care, they don't care about comic accuracy and I'm sure many didn't care about Doom being a crash test dummy. They noticed, though, that's for sure. I'm sure many knew what Johnny Storm looked like prior. But the point is - F4 had bad press from the start because of these changes - Johnny's race swap included. It contributed to the downfall of the film with all of the negative press it had online. The internet matters.

Of course it matters, but not when it comes to casting/creative decisions. Filmmakers shouldn't be afraid of fan backlash when it comes to casting decisions whether it be race-swapping or whatever. A lot of people on the internet were outraged when Heath Ledger was cast as the Joker should Nolan had appease them and capitulated by casting another actor?
And what contributed to the downfall of the film had very little to do with the race-swapping controversy. It played no significant role. The lackluster marketing/bad reviews/ bad word-of-mouth did.

And the main thing Zendaya was asked about in dozens of interviews is whether she was MJ or not..

Despite the controversy Zendaya's performance was one of the most praised aspects of Homecoming and Homecoming is the second most successful Spider-Man film.

And do you think people would be okay with Superman getting swapped? Superman like the F4's image is instilled within the public consciousness. You use Superman as an analogy but the backlash to a race swap on him would be even worse. Spider-Man being more popular doesn't matter.

As I've said the FF are well-known not well-liked thanks to the abysmal media portrayals. You seemed to be erroneously conflating being well-known to being well-liked. The mainstream audience doesn't put the FF on a extremely high pedestal. The FF is not popular enough for the mainstream(which will comprise of the majority of the MCU FF's box office) to hold their race from the comics sacrosanct. The mainstream audience only cares about a good film or whether the film works for them or not.

Children/small kids have nothing to do with my point. They aren't the ones who are going to be outraged, they aren't the ones who are going to start the controversy. People/adults are the ones who are going to be annoyed for a completely unnecessary change to these characters.

Not really. Especially if they're only vaguely familiar with the characters, and are not fans. The vast majority of the population are not big FF fans and likely be indifferent towards those characters being race-swapped. They only want a good movie.

The people who DO care will make it a problem. The F4 isn't tarnished enough for most people to have forgotten what they are suppose to look like.

They likely will be in the minority and won't accomplish much. They will be very loud online but very quiet in life.

This argument makes zero sense. There are Thousands of white actors out there in Hollywood, why would nobody white be a good fit for The F4? There are going to hundreds of actors auditioning for these parts. By definition of the actual word - The "best actor" for the job would check ALL of a character's traits including not just their personality traits but their physical traits as well.

Of course any white actor could be a good fit for the F4 but my point is that what if there's a person of color who could best embody the spirit of the character better than any actor white actor? Then Marvel should cast them comic book accuracy be damned. Try to be a bit more open-minded.

So what is the point, then? Why change the F4? "Because somebody who isn't white might be the best choice" out of the hundreds of white actors auditioning, none of them are a good fit? No way, man. So again, why race swap the F4 if it doesn't matter? it's change for the sake of change. Simple as that.

The point is that casting non-white actors for the FF won't be a deal breaker if they can capture the spirit of the characters.
Keep in mind: I'm not saying they should change the FF for the sake of diversity. That would be tokenism, and I would be against that but what I am saying is they should find the best actor for the part regardless of race. If the movie is good then most people will not care. Simple as that.

 

[MasterCat]

WRT changing race in the CBMs, it doesn't matter that much as long as the characters are done well. That being said, I think there are characters (F4 being an example) where we should generally stay with how they were portrayed in the comics. The real problem is that back in the 60s, ALL the heroes were white folk and the only people of color were stereotyped villains.

The cinematic Avengers have gotten to this point:
European descent: Original 6, Bucky, Ant-Man & Wasp, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man
African descent: Black Panther & anyone else from his movie you count as a superhero, War Machine, Falcon, Goliath
Chinese: I guess Wong's on the IW poster?
Rest of world: nobody
We're also up to 3 black villains (counting Ghost) and several supporting characters have been blackwashed. They've over-corrected on black people and should move on.

 

[Dark Raven]

And where did I say that?...

In your last post

The FF don't need to be a minority allegory like the X-Men for the characters to be diverse.

There does not need to be a reason for them to be a different race from the comics, the fact that it is an interpretation is good enough reason alone.

That's what it implied. No reason for the change but just an interpretation. So no reason for the diversity but simply for diversity's sake.

 

[Marvel united]

I don't accept that the demographics of mutants should be unrealistic because the X-Men are only an allegory for LGBTs of Color. What, are white people an inferior race that only rarely have the X-gene?

Well first of all, this isn't real life. What "real racial statistics" of mutants would be in real life is irrelevant to a CBM telling a story about persecuted minorities that is meant to be a direct parallel to what happens to actual minorities in America.

I'm not saying white people wouldn't have the X-gene (obviously not, considering I don't want Scott and Jean to change) but what I am saying is that straight white ppl (i'm not talking about LGTBQ white ppl) should not be a stand-in for real minorities in a movie that is based on the struggle that real life oppressed groups actually go through. Because in America, they are not minorities nor are they persecuted (for the most part). The argument for a racially diverse X-Men cast is one that I wholeheartedly agree with because it makes perfect sense.

 

[MasterCat]

I'm not saying white people wouldn't have the X-gene (obviously not, considering I don't want Scott and Jean to change) but what I am saying is that straight white ppl (i'm not talking about LGTBQ white ppl) should not be a stand-in for real minorities in a movie that is based on the struggle that real life oppressed groups actually go through.

I really can't tell what you're saying. In the same sentence it sounds like you don't want Scott and Jean to stop being straight white people and that there shouldn't be any straight white X-Men as "a stand-in for real minorities."

 

[Marvel united]

I really can't tell what you're saying. In the same sentence it sounds like you don't want Scott and Jean to stop being straight white people and that there shouldn't be any straight white X-Men as "a stand-in for real minorities."

What I'm saying is that the MAJORITY of the cast should not be straight and white. Scott, Jean and Logan (if he's in it) are not the majority of the cast. They are 3 characters in an ensemble that could be made up of around 14 or 20 characters/mutants which should mainly consist of people of color and LGTBQ mutants (I.e Iceman, Mystique possibly Angel etc)

TLDR - Most of the mutants should be minorities. That doesn't mean straight white people can't be mutants only that the majority of mutants should not be straight and white. Key word: Majority.

 

[Crimz]

In your last post



That's what it implied. No reason for the change but just an interpretation. So no reason for the diversity but simply for diversity's sake.

... No it didn't. It says that there is no need for a "story reason" for a change in race. Race changes affect nothing in terms of the characters personality (the actual important aspect) therefore no reason is necessary. It's an interpretation so things can and will change. No where did I say or imply that there should be diversity for diversity's sake. You misinterpreted it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'm fine with the idea of some possible changes, but I can't comment on a generic 'diverse' actor without knowing who we're talking about.

I've seen Denzel Washington's name come up for Reed and I think he would be terrible.

Not because he's black, but because he's way too old and his personality/demeaner doesn't work for me.

Idris Elba or Miles Teller for Reed? Idris Elba, please (I know, I know, he's already a Marvel character, but that helps illustrate a point: race is only one of 100 variables that have to be considered when making a choice like this and I don't understand why it seems to jump to the top of those 100 variables for some people).

Oscar Isaac or Idris Elba? I'd probably go with Oscar Isaac, partly because his age is a little closer to what I want at this point... though even he may be a little too old for a film that probably won't start production for several years.

Talking about race without discussing specific names seems like a futile exercise to me.

In fact, I remember someone talking about Oscar Isaac being a pick for 'diversity', and that seemed odd to me. As far as I'm concerned, he has the personality to play Reed and he looks like Reed. I don't know Isaac's ethnic heritage and I don't know Reed Richard's ethnic heritage.

 

[MasterCat]

"Reed Richards son of Nathaniel Richards" is pretty easy to call as Anglo, at least on his father's side.

 

[Crimz]

I'm fine with the idea of some possible changes, but I can't comment on a generic 'diverse' actor without knowing who we're talking about.

I've seen Denzel Washington's name come up for Reed and I think he would be terrible.

Not because he's black, but because he's way too old and his personality/demeaner doesn't work for me.

Idris Elba or Miles Teller for Reed? Idris Elba, please (I know, I know, he's already a Marvel character, but that helps illustrate a point: race is only one of 100 variables that have to be considered when making a choice like this and I don't understand why it seems to jump to the top of those 100 variables for some people).

Oscar Isaac or Idris Elba? I'd probably go with Oscar Isaac, partly because his age is a little closer to what I want at this point... though even he may be a little too old for a film that probably won't start production for several years.

Talking about race without discussing specific names seems like a futile exercise to me.

In fact, I remember someone talking about Oscar Isaac being a pick for 'diversity', and that seemed odd to me. As far as I'm concerned, he has the personality to play Reed and he looks like Reed. I don't know Isaac's ethnic heritage and I don't know Reed Richard's ethnic heritage.

Reed is definitely a Wasp while Isaac is Latino. That would be considered a change. Oscar Isaac is my top choice for Reed and he'd kill the role.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Reed is definitely a Wasp .

Based on what? I don’t recall any discussion of his ethnic heritage, church attendance etc. in the comics. We might presume this, but I would presume someone with the last name Isaac is Jewish.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Stan Lee - A white guy with a name like that has to be a WASP.

 

[Detective Conan]

Based on what? I don’t recall any discussion of his ethnic heritage, church attendance etc. in the comics. We might presume this, but I would presume someone with the last name Isaac is Jewish.

The last name 'Richards' seems to indicate this, I think.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

The last name 'Richards' seems to indicate this, I think.

So... maybe... that tells us something about the background of his paternal grandfather ... if that paternal grandfather didn’t change his name like Stan Lee did. What about his paternal grandmother? What anout his maternal grandfather? What about his maternal grandmother?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Reed’s brother:

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/trinidad-and-tobago/jereem-richards-263495

 

[Crimz]

Based on what? I don’t recall any discussion of his ethnic heritage, church attendance etc. in the comics. We might presume this, but I would presume someone with the last name Isaac is Jewish.

In comics he's always been portrayed as a WASP. I'm not sure what point your trying to say.

 

[Xeno]

Based on what? I don’t recall any discussion of his ethnic heritage, church attendance etc. in the comics. We might presume this, but I would presume someone with the last name Isaac is Jewish.

Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada is of Cuban-Guatemalan heritage. He was raised as an evangelical Protestant. Isaac is a damn good actor and Marvel would be lucky to cast him in any role, including Reed Richards. I honestly can't see anyone saying, "Wait, his mom is Guatemalan, he can't play Mister Fantastic!"