Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Marvel united]

What should be the team’s ideal age? And older team (ages 30-40)? A younger team (ages 16-25)

A mix between both. Johnny should be around 16-19 years old while Sue late 20s to early 30s and Reed/Ben are mid 30s to early 40s

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

A mix between both. Johnny should be around 16-19 years old while Sue late 20s to early 30s and Reed/Ben are mid 30s to early 40s

I think Sue could be a bit older, to be in the same general range as Reed and Ben if just a few years younger. Johnny... I really hope he's played by an honest to god teenager or an under 21 actor that looks convincingly like a teen and who will be presented as so.

 

[Xeno]

I think Sue could be a bit older, to be in the same general range as Reed and Ben if just a few years younger. Johnny... I really hope he's played by an honest to god teenager or an under 21 actor that looks convincingly like a teen and who will be presented as so.

I would prefer that Johnny is in his early 20s, maybe fresh out of college, when the franchise starts. A lot of fans want him to be Peter Parker's age to preserve their relationship from the comics, but that would pose a problem in terms of making his inclusion in the space trip/incident plausible. Fant4stic had that same problem when it came to finding a good reason for Ben to go along with Reed and the others (minus Sue, stupidly). It would be rather ridiculous to fall back on the "unqualified girlfriend and her kid brother tag along with the men just because" explanation from the comics, imo.

 

[Iceman]

I would prefer that Johnny is in his early 20s, maybe fresh out of college, when the franchise starts. A lot of fans want him to be Peter Parker's age to preserve their relationship from the comics, but that would pose a problem in terms of making his inclusion in the space trip/incident plausible. Fant4stic had that same problem when it came to finding a good reason for Ben to go along with Reed and the others (minus Sue, stupidly). It would be rather ridiculous to fall back on the "unqualified girlfriend and her kid brother tag along with the men just because" explanation from the comics, imo.

That would be my preference too.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I would prefer that Johnny is in his early 20s, maybe fresh out of college, when the franchise starts. A lot of fans want him to be Peter Parker's age to preserve their relationship from the comics, but that would pose a problem in terms of making his inclusion in the space trip/incident plausible. Fant4stic had that same problem when it came to finding a good reason for Ben to go along with Reed and the others (minus Sue, stupidly). It would be rather ridiculous to fall back on the "unqualified girlfriend and her kid brother tag along with the men just because" explanation from the comics, imo.

See... I think this is where the other adaptations have already tread though. Making Sue a scientist or aging Johnny up and giving him some kind of "job" to justify his inclusion. I get why it's done but I think it's not necessary, and again, it's been attempted three times already.

For myself I don't really care if Johnny and Peter are on screen friends. For Johnny's character I think it makes sense for him to be a teen because having him be so impetuous etc. as a full fledged adult is what's more incredulous to me. By making him a kid suddenly all the usual stuff done with him in adaptations makes sense. He's a kid who has a limited amount of tools in his tool box. Him acting out or being unaware doesn't then make him seem like an idiot. It just means he's inexperienced. God love Evans as a performer but the problem I had with his Johnny was he supposedly was a pilot/astronaut himself and... Did he really come off that way?

None of us knows how they are going to do the space flight in the MCU but I do think you can have a "just cuz" rationale. I think that you can simply have Reed acting as an Elon Musk type. He designs and builds what he hopes will be a low cost reusable launch vehicle for sub orbital transport. Tie it into the real world X Prize or come up with a fictional equivalent. Famous scientist Reed Richards builds his own "space ship" and to prove it's safety and show his own confidence in his work he and his hand picked test pilot are not the only ones going up on it's test flight but he's taking along his incredibly photogenic fiancee and her kid brother. I don't know... That works for me.

 

[Marvel united]

See... I think this is where the other adaptations have already tread though. Making Sue a scientist or aging Johnny up and giving him some kind of "job" to justify his inclusion. I get why it's done but I think it's not necessary, and again, it's been attempted three times already.

For myself I don't really care if Johnny and Peter are on screen friends. For Johnny's character I think it makes sense for him to be a teen because having him be so impetuous etc. as a full fledged adult is what's more incredulous to me. By making him a kid suddenly all the usual stuff done with him in adaptations makes sense. He's a kid who has a limited amount of tools in his tool box. Him acting out or being unaware doesn't then make him seem like an idiot. It just means he's inexperienced. God love Evans as a performer but the problem I had with his Johnny was he supposedly was a pilot/astronaut himself and... Did he really come off that way?

None of us knows how they are going to do the space flight in the MCU but I do think you can have a "just cuz" rationale. I think that you can simply have Reed acting as an Elon Musk type. He designs and builds what he hopes will be a low cost reusable launch vehicle for sub orbital transport. Tie it into the real world X Prize or come up with a fictional equivalent. Famous scientist Reed Richards builds his own "space ship" and to prove it's safety and show his own confidence in his work he and his hand picked test pilot are not the only ones going up on it's test flight but he's taking along his incredibly photogenic fiancee and her kid brother. I don't know... That works for me.

Well said

 

[Xeno]

See... I think this is where the other adaptations have already tread though. Making Sue a scientist or aging Johnny up and giving him some kind of "job" to justify his inclusion. I get why it's done but I think it's not necessary, and again, it's been attempted three times already.

For myself I don't really care if Johnny and Peter are on screen friends. For Johnny's character I think it makes sense for him to be a teen because having him be so impetuous etc. as a full fledged adult is what's more incredulous to me. By making him a kid suddenly all the usual stuff done with him in adaptations makes sense. He's a kid who has a limited amount of tools in his tool box. Him acting out or being unaware doesn't then make him seem like an idiot. It just means he's inexperienced. God love Evans as a performer but the problem I had with his Johnny was he supposedly was a pilot/astronaut himself and... Did he really come off that way?

None of us knows how they are going to do the space flight in the MCU but I do think you can have a "just cuz" rationale. I think that you can simply have Reed acting as an Elon Musk type. He designs and builds what he hopes will be a low cost reusable launch vehicle for sub orbital transport. Tie it into the real world X Prize or come up with a fictional equivalent. Famous scientist Reed Richards builds his own "space ship" and to prove it's safety and show his own confidence in his work he and his hand picked test pilot are not the only ones going up on it's test flight but he's taking along his incredibly photogenic fiancee and her kid brother. I don't know... That works for me.

Sue being included solely because of her relationship with Reed and her pretty face would be incredibly problematic. As bad as the previous versions of the FF were one of the few things they got right was modernizing Sue and Johnny's roles. The FF comic was a product of its time, when women were expected to be merely ornamental and "kid sidekicks" were popular reader surrogates. But what was acceptable then would rightly cause disdain today.

Reducing the Storm siblings to space tourists rather than letting them be accomplished in their own right would position the FF as a franchise planted firmly in the outdated traditions of a happily bygone era. The story should be about a team of scientist-adventurers pioneering an idealistic, futuristic world, not clinging to the entrenched inequities of the past.

 

[Iceman]

The previous attempts were either seen by hardly anyone (Fant4stic) or old and not seen by many. I think they should just do F4 in the best way possible regardless of if some of those elements have been done before.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Sue being included solely because of her relationship with Reed and her pretty face would be incredibly problematic. As bad as the previous versions of the FF were one of the few things they got right was modernizing Sue and Johnny's roles. The FF comic was a product of its time, when women were expected to be merely ornamental and "kid sidekicks" were popular reader surrogates. But what was acceptable then would rightly cause disdain today.

Reducing the Storm siblings to space tourists rather than letting them be accomplished in their own right would position the FF as a franchise planted firmly in the outdated traditions of a happily bygone era. The story should be about a team of scientist-adventurers pioneering an idealistic, futuristic world, not clinging to the entrenched inequities of the past.

Is the only way a person can be "useful" in a super hero story is if they are a professional scientist? Is Sue's or Johnny only capable of being contributors to the team if they are exactly like Reed or Ben, scientists or pilots? Why can't Sue have a career other than being in the sciences? Why can't Johnny just be an average teen? Is that really some slap in the face of, well, anyone? I'm sorry but I don't think just because Sue and Johnny aren't full fledged astronauts that it makes it some statement about inequality whatsoever, especially given how both of the Storms in terms of super powers outclass both Reed and Ben in terms of raw power.

Personally I think Sue should have a role as someone involved with public relations. My previous posts on the subject are all about how her role in the team and the FF as an organization based out of their HQ is about how she juggles it all. That's far from thinking that she's "just a pretty face". I've said my piece on how Johnny being a capricious hot head doesn't jibe with him having some "Job" that naturally includes him in the world of aeronautics or space exploration. Again... Even Evans couldn 't make that work.

 

[Silvermoth]

I guarantee sue will be a STEM major. Marvel have an agreement to promote more women in STEM and they won’t want to pass up the opportunity. There could be a PR person type role but I would put money on it not being Sue

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I guarantee sue will be a STEM major. Marvel have an agreement to promote more women in STEM and they won’t want to pass up the opportunity. There could be a PR person type role but I would put money on it not being Sue

I feel that would just be... Boring. The idea should be that Sue and Reed are different in many fundamental ways, the biggest being that he's a super genius and Sue is not. That doesn't make her dumb. I mean... Compared to Reed, Tony Stark is dumb. It puts a lot of cold water on issues, dramatic and otherwise in the relationship if Reed is a super genius scientist and Sue is... a slightly less than genius scientist in my opinion. Where's the contrast? And as mentioned... They've done that already and it didn't seem to yield much of anything.

I just don't find everyone on the FF being a slightly less brilliant scientist as compared to Reed to be all that compelling, I guess. While, sure, on the face of it they can all be scientists and have differing personalities it's just that much more stark of a comparison if they aren't all academics of some kind.

 

[Crimz]

Johnny's the engineer. That's what he is good at in the comics and giving him that role in the films would be a legitimate reason why he's on the flight.

Sue's reason definitely needs to change as it was a product of the 60s. Her Invisible Girl days were quite frankly terrible and are still felt in the books to this day in the way she's treated. I welcome the changes that will inevitably happen in the film.

But instead of her co-opting Reed's role of the scientist I'd have her be a doctor. It legitimizes her role on the crew, it still separates her from Reed, and it suits her personality.

 

[Marvel united]

I think Sue could be a bit older, to be in the same general range as Reed and Ben if just a few years younger. Johnny... I really hope he's played by an honest to god teenager or an under 21 actor that looks convincingly like a teen and who will be presented as so.

I'd prefer Sue to be at least 6 years younger than Reed. He is traditionally portrayed as much older than her. And while I don't think the age difference has to be as extreme as the comics, I wouldn't want Sue in her late 30s to early 40s like Reed and Ben.

Johnny I don't think has to be played by an actual teenager but I definitely want someone in their late teens to early 20s ala Tom Holland. I think it brings a new dynamic to the team when one of the members is still a teenager like the comics. And both Evans and Jordan's version were aged up for the movie, so Marvel going the comic accurate age for Johnny would be fresh.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Johnny's the engineer. That's what he is good at in the comics and giving him that role in the films would be a legitimate reason why he's on the flight.

Sue's reason definitely needs to change as it was a product of the 60s. Her Invisible Girl days were quite frankly terrible and are still felt in the books to this day in the way she's treated. I welcome the changes that will inevitably happen in the film.

But instead of her co-opting Reed's role of the scientist I'd have her be a doctor. It legitimizes her role on the crew, it still separates her from Reed, and it suits her personality.

Once again though... If Johnny is an engineer that is capable of working on Reed's designs and is doing so at the age of, what... 22, 24? Well... Then he's a prodigy too. And again... Someone that made it through the high level academic world to be able to understand Reed's work at such a young age should be a disciplined and precise individual... That's just not Johnny to me and gets back to the problem with how the Story films did Johnny where I had an easier time believing in his super powers than that such a goofy, immature, dunder head was an astronaut. It just makes it when the inevitable moment (and YOU KNOW it will happen) when Reed explains something and Johnny doesn't get it make no sense. While I think the vibe of say, STAR TREK: TNG is what a FF film should go for, aping it in terms of set up, I.E. everyone is a brainy and disciplined academic with a grad school level intellect just doesn't jibe with the way the FF have been for decades, at least to me. Ben as an Air Force guy would have a modern Air Force pilot's grasp of plenty of science and engineering that relates to aeronautics. Fine. But Johnny now is an engineer? Not just a dude that likes cars but he's working on Reed's designs? Sue is a medical doctor? It feels off to me, and more to the point... It just re-treads aspects we've already gotten on screen in less than successful attempts.

 

[Crimz]

Once again though... If Johnny is an engineer that is capable of working on Reed's designs and is doing so at the age of, what... 22, 24? Well... Then he's a prodigy too. And again... Someone that made it through the high level academic world to be able to understand Reed's work at such a young age should be a disciplined and precise individual... That's just not Johnny to me and gets back to the problem with how the Story films did Johnny where I had an easier time believing in his super powers than that such a goofy, immature, dunder head was an astronaut. It just makes it when the inevitable moment (and YOU KNOW it will happen) when Reed explains something and Johnny doesn't get it make no sense. While I think the vibe of say, STAR TREK: TNG is what a FF film should go for, aping it in terms of set up, I.E. everyone is a brainy and disciplined academic with a grad school level intellect just doesn't jibe with the way the FF have been for decades, at least to me. Ben as an Air Force guy would have a modern Air Force pilot's grasp of plenty of science and engineering that relates to aeronautics. Fine. But Johnny now is an engineer? Not just a dude that likes cars but he's working on Reed's designs? Sue is a medical doctor? It feels off to me, and more to the point... It just re-treads aspects we've already gotten on screen in less than successful attempts.

Johnny Storm is a talented engineer. That is a part of his character, his problem is that he doesn't apply himself alot of the time which can be attributed to his immaturity. He doesn't understand a lot of what Reed says, but that doesn't take away from his talent with machines. That's who Johnny is.

Sue being a doctor is not a retread of the Fox films and it is a great way to modernize the character (something that is definitely needed). The films would never have Sue be just Reed's girlfriend like in the 60s and will likely give her a role. I believe that a medical one is the best fit for the character plus it's what's missing from their space crew.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Part of what made the original FF interesting was the diversity of the characters. If they're all technically skilled, it will lose something. And there's no need to make them engineers or scientists to be on the flight. Reed is making a spaceship that is so safe and easy to operate that anyone can fly on it and he's demonstrating that by taking his girlfriend and her brother along on the flight. Would any of us be surprised if Elon Musk did something like that 5-10 years from now? It's not a stretch at all in today's world.

And the key is, if we can keep this a team of "real people", it will make their adventures work much better. When they encounter wild, crazy things in Subterranea or the Negative Zone or on other planets, they'll react as regular people - not scientists - and the audience of regular people will be right there with them and able to relate.

 

[David H.]

I just can’t relate to Tony Stark. He’s too smart.

 

[Crimz]

Part of what made the original FF interesting was the diversity of the characters. If they're all technically skilled, it will lose something. And there's no need to make them engineers or scientists to be on the flight. Reed is making a spaceship that is so safe and easy to operate that anyone can fly on it and he's demonstrating that by taking his girlfriend and her brother along on the flight. Would any of us be surprised if Elon Musk did something like that 5-10 years from now? It's not a stretch at all in today's world.

And the key is, if we can keep this a team of "real people", it will make their adventures work much better. When they encounter wild, crazy things in Subterranea or the Negative Zone or on other planets, they'll react as regular people - not scientists - and the audience of regular people will be right there with them and able to relate.

Doctors, engineers, and pilots are regular people. Those are everyday jobs that happen to be useful for expeditions the FF usually go on. Reed would still stand out being the genius scientist and others would not lose relatability at all. Ben is also an astronaut, which isn't a typical job, yet he is arguably the most relatable of the team.

Also, Johnny being the teams engineer that helps Reed sometimes isn't a change. I've provided panels that show it's been canon since Lee/Kirby's original run, back when Johnny was a teenager. He's only gotten better at it as times gone on.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Doctors, engineers, and pilots are regular people. Those are everyday jobs that happen to be useful for expeditions the FF usually go on. Reed would still stand out being the genius scientist and others would not lose relatability at all. Ben is also an astronaut, which isn't a typical job, yet he is arguably the most relatable of the team.

Also, Johnny being the teams engineer that helps Reed sometimes isn't a change. I've provided panels that show it's been canon since Lee/Kirby's original run, back when Johnny was a teenager. He's only gotten better at it as times gone on.

Just seems kind of boring, cliche’ and familiar to me. We saw upgraded, more technically knowledgeable Johnny and Sue in all the Fox films. I’d like to see something closer to the original at this point.

 

[Crimz]

Just seems kind of boring, cliche’ and familiar to me. We saw upgraded, more technically knowledgeable Johnny and Sue in all the Fox films. I’d like to see something closer to the original at this point.

When you look back on it, the times they gave Sue and Johnny a role it was only lip service. No one even remembers what they did it was so badly written and underused.

In the 05/07 films Johnny was a pilot just like Ben. That was a mistake as it takes away from Ben and in the end he nothing was done with that aspect Johnny's character. No one remembers him being a pilot and there was no mention or even a show of skills after the crash.

Sue was meant to be a scientist like Reed and that was a mistake similar to the above. She ends up being completely useless and the only way they convey her being smart is giving her glasses...

The 15 film was meant to be more science focused. This time they took Johnny's role of mechanic and honestly that aspect of the film worked. He had a reason to join the expedition and contributed to the team. He just had no personality or any redeeming qualities.... Like everyone else in the movie.

Sue was a pattern recognition specialist or something. It was useless and was just used to find Reed. She wasn't even involved in the transport that gave them their powers. This is an example of how not to do things, as she ended up being just as useless as Alba's Sue. Maybe moreso.

Ben had no role and had no reason to be there. People have even said that he shouldn't have been involved and that would be the case if the MCU film makes Sue and Johnny have no role.

None of the issues with the films were that they elevated Sue and Johnny to having roles and reasons to being on the first expedition. The issues were bad writing, which all of the Fox FF films were littered with. The MCU giving them the roles they deserve would not be an issue at all.

And honestly, the original was terrible for Johnny and particularly Sue. They at least gave Johnny a role later on in that run with him being the mechanic/engineer that helps out Reed. Sue stayed being just Reed's girlfriend.

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

All they need to do is make Johnny a stowaway on-board the rocket that sees the four gain their powers from the cosmic rays. No need to give him a skill that means he's meant to be there. He's a rebellious character anyway, so it would be in-character for him to stow away.

 

[Xeno]

I just can’t relate to Tony Stark Reed Richards. He’s too smart.

FTFY

 

[Iceman]

I guarantee sue will be a STEM major. Marvel have an agreement to promote more women in STEM and they won’t want to pass up the opportunity. There could be a PR person type role but I would put money on it not being Sue

Oh I didn't know that. Seems like a no-brainer in that case.

 

[Silvermoth]

I feel that would just be... Boring. The idea should be that Sue and Reed are different in many fundamental ways, the biggest being that he's a super genius and Sue is not. That doesn't make her dumb. I mean... Compared to Reed, Tony Stark is dumb. It puts a lot of cold water on issues, dramatic and otherwise in the relationship if Reed is a super genius scientist and Sue is... a slightly less than genius scientist in my opinion. Where's the contrast? And as mentioned... They've done that already and it didn't seem to yield much of anything.

I just don't find everyone on the FF being a slightly less brilliant scientist as compared to Reed to be all that compelling, I guess. While, sure, on the face of it they can all be scientists and have differing personalities it's just that much more stark of a comparison if they aren't all academics of some kind.

There’s still Ben to show the average person versus reed. I don’t think it’s boring. It would definitely be more boring if he was this amazing intellect and her only job was pointing at stuff and saying “what’s that?”

Oh I didn't know that. Seems like a no-brainer in that case.

Yeah, and really it’s worked well. Its why Wasp I was a science major instead of a costume designer and why Jane was a kickass scientist instead of just a doe eyed fawn (until Thor the dark world)

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

There’s still Ben to show the average person versus reed. I don’t think it’s boring. It would definitely be more boring if he was this amazing intellect and her only job was pointing at stuff and saying “what’s that?”

Except in a modern context... Ben wouldn't be "average". A modern American Air Force pilot isn't some cliche' from a 1940's/1950's movie. We are talking about people that have to have as part of their job, a more than layman's understanding of aeronautics, engineering, physics and even computer sciences. That's not to say a modern Ben should be able to follow all of Reed's thinking on cutting edge astrophysics or Quantum theories etc. but he's not gonna be the "average" person either.

Look I just think that having everyone on the FF with an academic background of some kind has been tried before already and it's not yielded much, plus it's not necessary. They all bring important character aspects without having them all simply be "less smart geniuses than Reed" type characters in my view. I don't think it's some kind of slap in the face of Sue, or women in general if she's not a scientist. That in no way means she's "dumb". She's just... not a scientist. If anything writing her as still essential and useful despite her not being a career academic or doctor of some sort can be inspiring in it's own way. Let's look at the MCU to date... Who's actually got a background of not being in the sciences or the military/covert ops that's from the Earth based side of the Marvel U.?

Iron Man- Scientific genius
Cap- Military war hero
Banner- Scientific genius
Thor- Asgardian Space God
Black Widow- Covert Ops
Hawkey- Covert Ops/Military
War Machine- Military
Falcon- Military
Black Panther- Scientific Genius
Dr. Strange- World recognized Neurosurgeon
Peter Parker- Enrolled at school for scientifically gifted students
Nick Fury- Military/Covert Ops
Winter Soldier- Military/Covert Ops
Scott Lang- Engineer
Hope Pym- Scientific genius

Who's the odd man out on that list? The SPACE GOD.

Fine... The GOTG and Wanda are not all scientists or military and while Vision is neither as well... He's a freaking android. So far Wanda is the sole truly "average" human being. If there is a perspective lacking in the MCU it's that of someone who is not either attached to the military or the world of science in some fashion. Even Capt. Marvel is going to be an elite educated graduate of the Air Force Academy. Maybe Sue and Johnny not being written as science majors of some kind is actually refreshing and could yield more in terms of interactions than if they are just, again... Slightly less genius than their genius team leader type characters.

I will also add this... You don't have to worry about writing your characters as making decisions that aren't "smart" if you don't give them pedigrees where they should be informed on some subject but then act diametrically opposite of what you are selling them as. I've talked about how Johnny in the Story films in no way sounds or acts as someone that was an astronaut would. An even better example is the first Jurassic Park sequel. Julianne Moore is supposedly and expert on hunting animals. We're told again and again how brilliant a naturalist she is... Yet when it's pointed out that she's walking into raptor territory with the blood of a wounded dinosaur on her clothing she shrugs it off... That's just stupid writing and does her character no favors. Again... Sue isn't automatically "dumb" just because as a character she doesn't have a PhD. She and Johnny bring other things to the table in the team dynamic that Fantasy super genius Reed and gruff yet bold test pilot Ben don't. If the script handles Sue and Johnny well in terms of who they are as characters and how they interact with the other two then there's little need to rationalize their inclusion in the story by giving them roles that traditionally in the comics have never been necessary and in no way puncture the suspension of disbelief.