Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Willie Lumpkin]

. You buy into him as a villain. This would have been genius if Killian was up to task. Sadly, his backstory was weak and he was bland. If they had given us a character as interesting as Obediah Stane was in IM1 in Killian's role, the Mandarin twist would have 100% worked.

Yeah, sure, if there had been an even more intimidating bad-guy behind the scenes, that would have worked. And Killian could have even been that bad guy if it had been better written. But the way it actually played out, I found myself losing interest in the second act and by the final battle scene, I had become oblivious and just wanted it to end already. One of only two Marvel films (Thor Dark World being the other), that didn't leave me wanting more by the end.

 

[Endeavor]

Even if the Mandarin weren't Iron Man's arch enemy, the fact that they set him up as an extremely formidable foe in the first part of the movie, and then suddenly turned him into a ridiculous buffoon of an actor was bad. It took people out of the movie and turned it into a spoof...

Black had a lack of respect and showed disdain for the character.
To me this means he either shouldn't have been the director, or the character shouldn't have been used in the movie at all.
I know Perlmutter and his edicts had an effect on the end result as well, but I think a lot of it is on Black.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Honestly, I don't blame it on Black's disdain for the character entirely. I honestly think Marvel's edict from day 1 with the Mandarin was completely change him because they wanted to avoid being labeled as racist. Which to be fair, especially early on the Mandarin was racist. I would agree updates needed made. Black maybe took it too far, no argument there. But Marvel were ready to approve almost any changes to the Mandarin that someone came up with. I don't think he had to twist their arm on anything except the part about the female villain (which was dumb Perlmutter crap), but I doubt he got any push back on the Mandarin being fake twist.

 

[Detective Conan]

It’s a little bit like when they changed Khan’s ethnicity from an brown actor to just another white guy for Into Darkness just to be more ‘politically correct’ since the filmmakers feared the backlash of portraying brown character as a villain especially in the context of the film in which he’s supposed to be a terroist.

 

[Dark Raven]

Black had a lack of respect and showed disdain for the character.
To me this means he either shouldn't have been the director, or the character shouldn't have been used in the movie at all.
I know Perlmutter and his edicts had an effect on the end result as well, but I think a lot of it is on Black.

Marvel have gone with some questionable choices at certain times. Scott Buck comes to mind. He couldn't find any way to make the more mystical elements of Iron Fist work in season 1, so he turned it into a boardroom borefest and didn't allow him to have the costume. He worked his magic on the Inhumans as well.

If you don't have the imagination for it or hate a character, then definitely you shouldn't be working on it.

Honestly, I don't blame it on Black's disdain for the character entirely. I honestly think Marvel's edict from day 1 with the Mandarin was completely change him because they wanted to avoid being labeled as racist. Which to be fair, especially early on the Mandarin was racist. I would agree updates needed made. Black maybe took it too far, no argument there. But Marvel were ready to approve almost any changes to the Mandarin that someone came up with. I don't think he had to twist their arm on anything except the part about the female villain (which was dumb Perlmutter crap), but I doubt he got any push back on the Mandarin being fake twist.

Yes, Mandarin's original portrayal was racist, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have still be used properly with some modification. There are plenty of ways to go with him. You could make him more like a Dr Strange villain like Kaecillus, or like Saruman in LOTR, or like Shang Tsung or Shao Kahn in Mortal Kombat. Or even like Wo Fat in Hawaii Five-O.

It can't be that no foreigners can be portrayed as villains now. That's just getting silly. Do all these countries have no evil people at all? They're just evil individuals. It's not a reflection on the people as a whole. Do we think all North Koreans are villains? Or all Russians? Or all Afghans?

It’s a little bit like when they changed Khan’s ethnicity from an brown actor to just another white guy for Into Darkness just to be more ‘politically correct’ since the filmmakers feared the backlash of portraying brown character as a villain especially in the context of the film in which he’s supposed to be a terroist.

The fact is there are some brown people who are terrorists. That doesn't mean they all are. Making Khan brown would not have been a blanket dismissal of all brown people.

And why is it okay to still make the Russians villains but not Afghans or Iraqis or other Middle Eastern?

Are the North Koreans off limits too in case it is politically incorrect?

Does that mean that if Rocky 3 were made today, Clubber Lang wouldn't be black?

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

The companions aren't the main characters. The show is called Dr Who, not Rose Tyler or Amy Pond. The Dr is who often saves the day, the Dr is the one who has enemies, the Dr is the one who develops, the Dr is the one constant on the show. While companions come and go, the Dr is always there even if he has a different face.
The Fantastic Four are a team and it should not be the Reed show. Sue should not be like the doctor's companions, she should be Reed's equal.

If you don't think the companions are the main characters of Doctor Who, then you're talking nonsense. Analyse any episode of Doctor Who where the Doctor isn't travelling solo, and the companions are the main focus. The Doctor just happens to be the one constant character who is always there amid all the changes through the various eras of the show.

MCU Fantastic Four could operate on the same basis. Yes, it will be an ensemble piece - but that doesn't mean one character couldn't have most of the focus, as with Star Lord in Guardians of the Galaxy, or Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters. I really think seeing Reed through the eyes of Sue could be a good way to make us relate to Reed despite how he isolates himself from those around him and focuses more on his science than his friendships.

It's not a case of making it 'the Reed Show', it's a case of giving the film a coherent focus that audiences can relate to.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Sue and Johnny not being academics or scientists doesn't make an FF film suddenly "the Reed show" any more than the first Avengers film wasn't "the Tony and Bruce show" just because they were the two smartest guys on the team.

 

[Crimz]

Sue and Johnny not being academics or scientists doesn't make an FF film suddenly "the Reed show" any more than the first Avengers film wasn't "the Tony and Bruce show" just because they were the two smartest guys on the team.

The Avengers are different team with a different goal. The focus of the Avengers is to stop threats and fight bad guys, all of it's members are equipped to do this:

Captain America - trained soldier
Black Widow - trained spy and assassin
Hawkeye - same as Widow
Hulk/Banner - scientist/ strongest there is
Iron Man - scientist/inventor
Thor - Warrior God with a millennia's worth of experience

All of them have talents and roles that help the teams main goal.

The Fantastic Four are scientific adventurers first and foremost. Only Reed and Ben have roles that fit that objective while Johnny and Sue do not.
That's why the films should and most likely will give them one. I hope it's not scientist as that is already taken by Reed and would not be a good choice for many reasons. I prefer doctor for Sue and engineer for Johnny.

 

[HBarnill]

I dunno. Maybe it’s not a good idea to bring them into the universe. There’s no way to truly modern them. They were pretty cheesy, even then. Why else would there be 4 films and none of them being good?

 

[Dark Raven]

I dunno. Maybe it’s not a good idea to bring them into the universe. There’s no way to truly modern them. They were pretty cheesy, even then. Why else would there be 4 films and none of them being good?

No, they can be done. It just takes some imagination and creativity, and not adopting that kind of attitude, which is exactly what Fox did with the likes of Kinberg or Story. It's also what all the FFINO defenders did.

The last film was no good exactly because of all the changes made to them, particularly the last one with Trank and Kinberg. The Story films were better than the 2015 effort but lacked good writing and the right director. The 1994 film lacked the budget and was from a time when comic movies were not even considered worthy material for a proper big screen adaptation. There was never any intention of releasing it anyway. These films were made not because there was any real passion but simply to retain the rights. That's what happens when that is your primary driving force instead of actually making a good movie.

It's easy to make blanket statements that none of them were good for one reason that they can't be adapted and are too cheesy, when there are many other factors for each individual time these films were made that you need to take into account.

The Incredibles could be considered cheesy. Audiences loved them. That's what happens when you think the FF can't work and make all kinds of changes, and then someone else comes along and does the very thing that people love the FF for.

 

[Flint Marko]

I prefer doctor for Sue and engineer for Johnny.

Same.

 

[Iceman]

That sounds good to me.

 

[Dark Raven]

Why not make Sue a reporter? She could be reporting on a civilian rocket ship/ space plane that Reed has invented. Perhaps she could be sceptical of Reed's passenger rocket flight and the dangers of it, so they have some verbal sparring and banter. There is some attraction between the two. Then rather arrogantly, Reed invites her aboard to be part of the flight manifest, along with her brother to prove his point that it's perfectly safe. Her brother pesters her to go along, and so she relents and decides to accompany Reed and the rest of the passengers for its maiden voyage.

The rocket has a passenger manifest of about the same number you'd get on a commercial airline. During the course of the journey, Reed invites Sue and her brother into the cockpit where Ben Grimm is piloting. Suddenly they are hit by a cosmic storm. The worst of it is at the front of the ship, which is why those 4 are affected. After having to crash land, the rest of the passenger crew are fine, but there might be the odd few who were actually affected. We don't know. It leaves open the possibility of others with super powers though.

Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben are quarantined. They eventually begin to mutate and manifest fantastic powers. It's their common fate that binds them together, rather than a love of science or engineering.

 

[THORin]

Why not make Sue a reporter? She could be reporting on a civilian rocket ship/ space plane that Reed has invented. Perhaps she could be sceptical of Reed's passenger rocket flight and the dangers of it, so they have some verbal sparring and banter. There is some attraction between the two. Then rather arrogantly, Reed invites her aboard to be part of the flight manifest, along with her brother to prove his point that it's perfectly safe. Her brother pesters her to go along, and so she relents and decides to accompany Reed and the rest of the passengers for its maiden voyager.

The rocket has a passenger manifest of about the same number you'd get on a commercial airline. During the course of the journey, Reed invites Sue and her brother into the cockpit where Ben Grimm is piloting. Suddenly they are hit by a cosmic storm. The worst of it is at the front of the ship, which is why those 4 are affected. After having to crash land, the rest of the passenger crew are fine, but there might be the odd few who were actually affected. We don't know. It leaves open the possibility of others with super powers though.

Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben are quarantined. They eventually begin to mutate and manifest fantastic powers. It's their common fate that binds them together, rather than a love of science or engineering.

I would love this idea (who would you cast as the 4? I loved an idea I saw of Viggo Mortensen as Reed Richards, though he might be a bit old for the part)

 

[Dark Raven]

I would love this idea (who would you cast as the 4? I loved an idea I saw of Viggo Mortensen as Reed Richards, though he might be a bit old for the part)

Thanks. Well I've given most of my casting choices before.

Reed Richards - Ethan Peck (the grandson of Gregory Peck and playing Spock in Star Trek Discovery)

Sue Storm - Lily James

Ben Grimm - Seth Rogen

Not sure about Johnny yet, as I haven't found a choice I'm completely happy with.

 

[THORin]

Lily James would be great - I don't know much about Ethan Peck, but I think Seth Rogen could be interesting in the role of Grimm.

 

[Detective Conan]

Johnny Storm might be the hardest to cast. There’s no one that comes to mind that I’m completely sure would nail the role.

 

[HBarnill]

Dave Franco?

 

[Dark Raven]

Lily James would be great - I don't know much about Ethan Peck, but I think Seth Rogen could be interesting in the role of Grimm.

I don't know too much about Peck either, but I've seen him in interviews and he has the look and a great presence and the voice for Reed.





We'll know more about him from January next year when Star Trek Discovery comes back. Playing someone like Spock who is super intelligent and scientific has to qualify him for Reed. And he has a great leading man look for Mr Fantastic, getting some of his looks from Hollywood legend Gregory Peck himself.

Seth Rogen also has a great, gruff voice for Grimm and would easily be able to do the humour while being affable and approachable, yet potentially giving off that grouchy feel too.

And Lily James is my top choice for Sue. She's the whole package.

 

[Detective Conan]

Am I the only one who thinks he looks like Alden Ehrenreich?

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Maybe just the wide smile.

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

I dunno. Maybe it’s not a good idea to bring them into the universe. There’s no way to truly modern them. They were pretty cheesy, even then. Why else would there be 4 films and none of them being good?

Because Fox were more concerned with making a quick profit, whereas Disney/Marvel Studios have more quality control with their movies. I think the Fantastic Four are totally doable in a modern context; to use Doctor Who as an example again, between 1989 and 2005 (yes, I know there was a TV movie in 1996 but it didn't lead to anything) people thought of the show as 'silly' and 'cheesy'. The 2005 revival addressed that by introducing a domestic angle akin to a soap opera, and casting Christopher Eccleston as a guilt-ridden Doctor who made a tough decision during a mysterious 'Time War' which, as far as we as viewers knew back then, had ended with the destruction of his home planet Gallifrey along with his people.

There's no reason why Disney/Marvel Studios couldn't similarly change audience perception for Fantastic Four, just like the BBC did with Doctor Who. The answer is to look at what aspects appeal to a modern audience, and to focus on the characters and their wants and needs.

Really these are things that Marvel Studios are good at anyway.

 

[Xeno]

Am I the only one who thinks he looks like Alden Ehrenreich?

You're right. Except Peck doesn't have Ehrerher's ginormous head, receding hairline and putty face. And he's better looking with a nicer voice. Also maybe taller. But other than that, they could be twins.

 

[Dark Raven]

You're right. Except Peck doesn't have Ehrerher's ginormous head, receding hairline and putty face. And he's better looking with a nicer voice. Also maybe taller. But other than that, they could be twins.

Just like Alden Ehrenreich looks like a dead ringer for a young Harrison Ford, as if they went back in time.

 

[Silvermoth]

If they wanted mole man as a wacky supporting character Jon Bass would be perfect



Or if they wanted someone fresh Calvin Wong from crazy rich asians would be amazing