Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[fan4stic]

I still think Oscar Isaac would work better as Doom.

 

[Crimz]

I still think Oscar Isaac would work better as Doom.

Doom and Reed are pretty similar when you think about it. That's what makes their dynamic so good, Reed could easily have turned into Doom if it wasn't for his family grounding him.

That's why I think Oscar Isaac would make a great Reed. He could convey the slight darkness Reed has to be like Doom, something that I don't think John Krasinkski could do. Isaac could bring a complex character like Reed to life the way he should be. All of the previous film versions have been one-note poindexter types.

 

[Detective Conan]

Doom and Reed are pretty similar when you think about it. That's what makes their dynamic so good, Reed could easily have turned into Doom if it wasn't for his family grounding him.

Or this.

 

[Crimz]

Or this.

Yeah the Ultimate universe version of Reed is the prime example of this.

 

[terry78]

Still on the Krasinski bandwagon. The fact that he looks like a jock is actually why he fits. He was drawn to be a very rugged attractive dude who just happened to be a genius. He didn't look like a nerd.

 

[Dark Raven]

Still on the Krasinski bandwagon. The fact that he looks like a jock is actually why he fits. He was drawn to be a very rugged attractive dude who just happened to be a genius. He didn't look like a nerd.

Exactly this. I think people like John Byrne have drawn him more as a nerd. But then, most of Byrne's men look like that.

Could it be because they all look the same?

 

[CaptainWagner]

Yeah, I think ideally the actors for Reed and Victor should be men who could play either role. That sort of "One Bad Day Away From Villainy" vibe is something that past takes on Reed have missed, and is something that adds a lot to the team dynamic.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Exactly this. I think people like John Byrne have drawn him more as a nerd. But then, most of Byrne's men look like that.

Could it be because they all look the same?

Wow... What a "stereotypical" nerd.

I mean... Who could not look at those images and immediately NOT think "nerd".


Looks just like the cast of REVENGE OF THE NERDS in comic form, right?

 

[David H.]

I don’t know that you have to go that far. I think, really, more than two actors who understand the duality (which I’m not labeling as a negative, mind you), you just need the one playing Victor to understand that it’s his respective character’s lack of a family that makes him. It’s a desire to rescue his mother from Mephisto, after all, that drives him. I don’t think Richard’s dickishness from the comics is necessary for an onscreen translation.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

In an alternate universe, If Jon Faverau never starred in or directed the first Iron Man and instead directed the MCU Fantastic Four film I’d imagine he’d cast himself as Ben Grimm(he’d be a good fit).

With him being chosen to do the next MIB (with Thor himself as the lead, and Val tagging along as well for good measure) I would like to see F. Gary Gray given the chance. I think he's a guy that can balance out the gee whiz factor with some serious stakes and do action and character as well.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I don’t know that you have to go that far. I think, really, more than two actors who understand the duality (which I’m not labeling as a negative, mind you), you just need the one playing Victor to understand that it’s his respective character’s lack of a family that makes him. It’s a desire to rescue his mother from Mephisto, after all, that drives him. I don’t think Richard’s dickishness from the comics is necessary for an onscreen translation.

My take on Reed from the How Would You Do it thread:

Spoiler

Reed Richards/Mr. Fantastic- Oh boy... Where to start? Okay first off Reed has got to come off a lot less like an egghead and a lot more cool.
Perhaps to the point of arrogance even. If you look at recent adaptations getting across how amazing Reed is because of his intellect more than his power set is seemingly difficult. Making smart cool and interesting is a balancing act, with it's own pitfalls writers fall into regularly. Again, I think the key though is to make Reed and his intelligence cool. The difficulty is not doing it in the way that's currently en vogue. More often than not these days you find fictional geniuses as being depicted as either snobby, arrogant asshats that are separate and cut off from society or others in some way usually emotionally or they are geniuses but lack some aspect of common sense. In any case there is this very ham fisted rule in a lot of stories where there is some heavy personality price to be paid for being so much smarter than everybody else and while it can work to make Cumberbatch's Holmes cool, or Dr. House ect. it also tends to make them off putting in some way.
The other type is the usual socially awkward nerd trope. None of that should apply to Reed. No, for Reed I think the template is another BBC regular...
Doctor Who, or more specifically the affable and endearing take of the Matt Smith/David Tenant years of the Timelord. Here was a super genius that was a little off, sure, and still a science genius but never an ass to those whom it was unwarranted to be so. Funny, always thinking, always observing always game to find out something new. That's Reed to T if I were in charge of the character. I would leaven that with a pinch of social awkwardness but maybe not even that. I would say that Reed is eternally "un-hip" but he's always "cool". Reed isn't keeping up with popular culture because he's unconnected to the wider world and culture. He's more than aware. He just realizes it doesn't really matter. But he is grounded into what does, and that goes beyond his research. He calculates it all into his actions. He isn't blind to politics, nor human emotions and interactions. That sort of analysis on the fly is what gives him such an edge in his adventures and endeavors, both before he gained his powers and after. That's why again, flashbacks are really important. Establish that Reed was a genius that thrilled to adventure as much as to research. Make it that he sees no appreciable difference maybe?
All knowledge is self knowledge could be part of his personal credo. He's not a cold man. His emotions are as keyed into things as anything else. He is fulfilled by finding out new things and going new places and he wants others to be just as excited as he is. He's a rational man but he sees a "spiritual" value in scientific quests, and a beauty in the truth science uncovers about the universe and sentient existence in it. This also makes him the type that takes a lot of effort to surprise on his enemies part. Reed even without his power could walk in and out of CIA headquarters and liberate whatever information he wanted to an no one would ever know he was there. Again, like the Doctor... He's just that cool. No, I would have this version of Reed not be simply a forgetful professor type that shuts himself off from his friends and family all the time. If anything this version of Reed is in fact using his brain all the time to try and serve them in some fashion. Cutting them off knowingly or inadvertently would actually be the signs of someone a lot less bright than Reed is supposed to be. No this is a Reed that has a balance between his emotions and his rationale sides. What makes him a genius is that he can actually navigate those two areas equally. Now that brings up some interesting story points once you establish that because now when he gets to a situation where he must choose between the two, where he can't find the way to solve the problem all around you get to see what his choices will be and it's more likely for the drama to work. If we all assume Reed has a huge emotional blind spot and is an absent minded professor type then when he does just that... Who is gonna be surprised? If you establish that he has got his **** together then it becomes a bigger deal when even he can't square a circle so to speak. Above all the actor needed to play Reed cannot just be a nerdy milquetoast. He has to have a charm, even a magnetism, must be good at playing the collected type but also show the commitment to science because he finds it all so wondrous. I honestly don't even know where to start
with the casting. I will say the story films and the show on CN and the Trank films all missed the mark to varying degrees to my eyes.

I kind of have always thought that the hare's breath of difference between Doom and Reed comes down to self awareness. Which is saying something given how wrapped up in his head Reed can be. But compared to Doom he's actually more likely to be able to stand back and look at what he's doing and how it will affect people.


Also... Reed's not a freaking sociopath, obviously.

 

[DawnWarrior]

I want Doom to feel foreign, to contrast him further with Reed and make him feel more classically villainous. Latveria is in Eastern Europe, but all of the Dooms we've gotten in movies so far talk with American accents. We need somebody like Goran Visnjic. He'd be great.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I want Doom to feel foreign, to contrast him further with Reed and make him feel more classically villainous. Latveria is in Eastern Europe, but all of the Dooms we've gotten in movies so far talk with American accents. We need somebody like Goran Visnjic. He'd be great.

Also from my How Would You Do It? thread.

Spoiler

Doctor Doom

A lot of FF fans chafe and cringe at the fact that film makers seem to be hesitant at adapting Doom as the majestic monarch and genius he is with all the flamboyance and over the topness we all know from the comics.
I can understand the reticence to a certain degree, but in the end...
larger than life and over the top villains is not anything new to films of all stripes and if anything it fits even more into the world of super hero films.
Even Christopher Nolan's supposed "real world" films contain secret societies and a mastermind villain that has a purple suit, war paint and a punk rock aesthetic. I get keeping Doom a bit grounded but that is a relative thing in
a world where radiation turns men into living rubber bands. So if I had to handle Doom on film today I would start with the idea that he is a well known but also paradoxically secretive figure. Up until the point his full villain goes on display fighting against the Four, I would say the rest of the world finds him an ambiguous figure though he has his fair share of adherents.

In my estimation this is because Victor Von Doom would have been a person on the world stage that has the history and standing of Che, Mandela or Mao.
"Injured" in an accident that seemed to involve equally famous scientist Reed Richards, Von Doom apparently discharged himself from the hospital shortly after being admitted. Subsequently the records from his admission have gone missing with the nurses and doctors that were there to treat him all mysteriously dying in the years after. It's widely assumed Doom suffered some kind of severe facial disfigurement. About a year later Von Doom becomes a public figure fighting against the despotic regime in control of his home nation of Latveria. Without his comic armor and wearing a simple mask with only a small slits for eye holes, Doom became the "face" of the opposition,
at first peaceful but also eventually it's military commander. Doom spoke out against the oppression of the Roma of his country and the lack of government supported education and services for all Latverians. In this he had much of the sympathy and ear of the world. Thus his standing as a pop culture figure of righteous aggression against the powerful to some. An avatar of what he liked to promote as the prideful character of the Latverians Doom refused all outside aide form other countries both when he was simply the peaceful coordinator of the various dissident movements of Latveria, but also once the fighting began.


Instead, Von Doom took his forces to the mountains, the ancestral home of his Romani family, and created from scratch an underground industrial complex which outfitted his troops with weapons and equipment. Eventually Doom's forces win and he of course is proclaimed Supreme President or some such aggrandized title. Claiming the need to lick the nations wounds and bind her together Doom institutes a closed border policy. Shortly after Doom fakes an attempt on his life, video of which makes it's way to the outside world.
Dated about three years before Tony Stark's famous escape from the Ten Rings it seems after this "attempt" on his life Doom began to wear his own powered armor. He tries to cultivate his own aura as a "super hero" of his land to mixed results. Soon after other nations tread carefully against Latveria. Slowly it's been coming out that Doom's rule is despotic in it's own way, even if he has seemingly wiped out poverty in his country. Fear of Doom's loyal troops and stories of hyper advanced technology trickle in and make most leaders uncertain of how to proceed when dealing with Doom. Doom buys off too much prying into his country and the rumored human rights abuse by producing highly lucrative exotic materials in small quantities for export.

2. The Origin of the FF
It's these exotic materials that will eventually connect Doom to the FF.
Reed Richards is a smart man. He's supposed to be a genius of incredible intellect. So... Why was there no radiation shielding in his space craft in the original comics? This has been a point covered again and again with differing rationales in the books. For a film I would first of all assume Reed would have such shielding in place. In fact I would have it that Reed, a highly public figure of science and engineering would be attempting to create low cost space travel. Either directly referencing the X-Prize Foundation or making due with a fictional equivalent. I would make it more than just a simple launch and return but a race. Reed to show his faith in his engineering, creation and pilot, publicizes that he is bringing his fiancee and her brother along for the ride. After all, this is about creating practical space travel for all, right? Thus we now have somewhat of a reason to have two non-aeronautical individuals on board the craft. Reed built the ship with his team but did the lions share of construction with Ben, valuing Ben's test pilot input. As an added degree of difficulty the contest's date happens to coincide with an oncoming burst of naturally occurring radiation along the route of the race as it heads towards the finish. On the day of the race Reed's ship under Ben's control aces it's time and smokes the competition. As it approaches it's final flight path home though the radiation wave hits and instead of reacting as Reed designed it to the ship begins to fall apart, and the occupants are all exposed to the radiation. Luckily Reed has ultra redundant safety features not even in the original plans for the craft and they are saved arriving on land... Of course we know what happens next. They each received powers yadda yadda. What I would have would be that initially unknown to Reed the ship's materials were tampered with. From the source, as Reed's design called for certain cutting edge meta-materials only produced in Latveria. Doom of course was trying to kill Richards, and we learn eventually the reasons: Reed's calculations on the experiment (which also seemed to Reed to have some kind of irrational occult influences) Doom was running at the laboratory complex where they were studying (think someplace like the complex built by CERN, the Large Hadron Collider) were correct. The experiment blew up in Doom's face, though safety measures Reed installed actually saved their lives and resulted in Doom getting only the most minor of scars on one side of his face. And thus the reasons Doom hid his face during the Latverian revolution and why the doctors and nurses that looked him over after the accident had to die. Doom is brilliant, driven, a master of both science and the occult... And a bat guano crazy sociopath. In this version though this need for petty revenge brings about the one force that can counter him. In terms of performer that could handle this and make it all work, the brilliance, the presence, the fragile yet bombastic ego... I honestly don't know.

They definitely should embrace Doom as a FOREIGNER.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I don’t know that you have to go that far. I think, really, more than two actors who understand the duality (which I’m not labeling as a negative, mind you), you just need the one playing Victor to understand that it’s his respective character’s lack of a family that makes him. It’s a desire to rescue his mother from Mephisto, after all, that drives him. I don’t think Richard’s dickishness from the comics is necessary for an onscreen translation.

This is a key, key thing. To me, the Reed/Doom relationship is one of the most important elements of the Fantastic Four. They are basically the same person but with experiences that have sent them down different paths.

And in terms of the 'dickishness' I feel like some of that should be maintained (maybe not the most extreme examples, but a little bit). When I was a kid reading the early Kirby stories, I would get uncomfortable when Reed would say something like: "Ben, you fool!", but that's who he is, and that makes things more interesting.

To me, both Reed and Doom are arrogant. They're the smartest people in the universe and they know it. But Reed does care about other people and is much more selfless than Doom. While Reed is generally a good person, he can get impatient when people are getting in the way of the things he knows he has to do for the good of the world, and sometimes his "Doomness" slips out. He's good, but not perfect.

And on the other side there should be moments when Doom's "Reedness" shows through. He really does want the world to be a better place but believes that can only happen when he controls it.

So in my mind they are very similar people, but with the key point being Reed is a hero and he is selfless - he would die for those he loves, including the people of the World. Doom is much more selfish and doesn't really understand the concept of love.

Selfish vs. is selfless is what separates heroes and villains, so by making Reed and Doom mostly very similar, it allows us to really examine what the difference between a hero and villain is.

 

[rebellion]

I want Doom to feel foreign, to contrast him further with Reed and make him feel more classically villainous. Latveria is in Eastern Europe, but all of the Dooms we've gotten in movies so far talk with American accents. We need somebody like Goran Visnjic. He'd be great.

goran visnjic? big no. i will never understand why people in my country hail him as a great actor. he is so wooden and bland to me.

 

[terry78]

goran visnjic? big no. i will never understand why people in my country hail him as a great actor. he is so wooden and bland to me.

We enjoy accents different from ours. Go figure.

 

[rebellion]

We enjoy accents different from ours. Go figure.

And? There are plenty more capable easter european actors. My point was he cant act.

 

[terry78]

And? There are plenty more capable easter european actors. My point was he cant act.

I'm saying that's why some of us think he's a good actor over here in the states.

 

[Dark Raven]

And? There are plenty more capable easter european actors. My point was he cant act.

He seemed fine to me in Timeless.

 

[rebellion]

He seemed fine to me in Timeless.

Idk... I wasnt impressed. I believe marvel should and will aim higher.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Idk... I wasnt impressed. I believe marvel should and will aim higher.

This is why I don't get too hung up on theoretical casts. We can name hundreds of actors who could potentially do it, but Marvel has knocked it out of the park pretty consistently with their casting.

I don't know who they'll cast, but I feel pretty confident FF and Doom will be solid across the board.

We won't get any Miles Teller as Reed and Jamie Bell as Ben BS.

 

[Dark Raven]

Marvel need to cast someone who is actually Latverian for the role of Doom.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I actually am very insistent for Doom have an accent.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Marvel need to cast someone who is actually Latverian for the role of Doom.

Seriously, it’s more than overdue.

 

[Abudefduf]

Marvel need to cast someone who is actually Latverian for the role of Doom.

And actress portraying his mom needs to have at least some familiarity with the art of witchcraft.