Comics OMD/Clone Saga/Joey Q. discussion.

carnagee: I don't mind the "evil prevails" thing that much, but the thing that will forever bug me about it is the randomness. Technically, couldn't Mephisto just come up to any hero and force them to make a deal like this?
What's to stop it from happening again?

I don't mind "evil prevails" but when evil can pop up randomly and prevail whenever it wants with no real hope of defeating it? That my friends, is lame.

Right, if any hero hits bad times, will Mephisto bebop along out of nowhere and alter their history and make their elderly relatives or friends live longer? WIll the devil be helping to reboot other marvel books at some point?

I don't enjoy thinking about the devil whenever i read or look at Peter Parker or MJ now. They are forever associated with satan in this new world.

Plus, as you say, it is just flat out lame to relaunch a reality and a book using the devil. It was so clearly an agenda, because as a story it doesn't make logical sense. It was just a magical device to destroy a marriage all of the sudden.
 
Plus, as you say, it is just flat out lame to relaunch a reality and a book using the devil. It was so clearly an agenda, because as a story it doesn't make logical sense. It was just a magical device to destroy a marriage all of the sudden.
I'm with you that it sucks, but at the same time, I'm curious to know what the reaction would have been if they retconned the whole damn thing the "proper" way.

If the marriage had never existed, and Pete and MJ had not been in a relationship, and Peter was made 5-10 years younger (which is what it FEELS like now) would the reaction have been as bad as it is now? Would it have been worse? Would it be worth possibly pissing off more fans for a plot that would have been easier to swallow (believeability wise)as far as ret cons go?
 
I think the fans would have been pissed off regardless of "whatever" method used...

However, all the closet christians are now coming out standing on their soapboxes because "ooooh, the devil" was used instead of "fill-in-the-blank"... and it gives them some sort of holier than thou blanket to lay on when the reality is THEY ARE COMICS!!!!

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:
 
Well....i think it has more to do with turning Spider-man into Spawn, which out of character. It is not an association you want to be forever tied to, your flagship character...Spidey and The Devil.

And Aunt May now is either the Violator....or Gollum...not sure which really...take your pick.
 
I think the fans would have been pissed off regardless of "whatever" method used...

However, all the closet christians are now coming out standing on their soapboxes because "ooooh, the devil" was used instead of "fill-in-the-blank"... and it gives them some sort of holier than thou blanket to lay on when the reality is THEY ARE COMICS!!!!

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:
I'm a Christian, and I could care less. It's just the whole "associating with the Ultimate source of evil." It could have been the female version of Death, and it still would have been bad.

People are just going back to devil because well....marvel pretty much tried to make mephisto look and act just like Satan;)
 
Hmm, well, it doesn't really matter any way. Mephisto or Satan? They're both make-believe.
 
Hmm, well, it doesn't really matter any way. Mephisto or Satan? They're both make-believe.

One of my favourite things about internet message boards. The inevitability of someone coming in to any topic that resembles religion in any way to make a sarcastic, anti-religious argument.

Never fails.
 
One of my favourite things about internet message boards. The inevitability of someone coming in to any topic that resembles religion in any way to make a sarcastic, anti-religious argument.

Never fails.

Well, religious creeds aside, Mephisto is indeed a make-believe character in the Marvel Universe, as is Spider-Man, as is ALL Marvel characters in the Marvel Universe.

:oldrazz: :oldrazz: :oldrazz:

:cwink:
 
Well....i think it has more to do with turning Spider-man into Spawn, which out of character. It is not an association you want to be forever tied to, your flagship character...Spidey and The Devil.

And Aunt May now is either the Violator....or Gollum...not sure which really...take your pick.

That is a juxtaposition best left alone. Even hyperbole could not justify that. Spawn was a man who thought he was doing good deeds, when in fact his good intentions paved his road to hell. Once in hell, he bartered his soul away in exchange for leading the army of the devil (Melbolgia) against the armies of Heaven. Spawn was a man of serious sin (even if unwittingly) who did further damage willingly. Spider-Man is a wear mortal trying to stay on the right path (and who usually does) and is caught off guard. If Spider-Man were comparable to anyone, it would likely be Samson, who was once God's chosen warrior, but was led astray.

Just because these characters are super heroes, does not mean that we can forget that they are mortal and human. Humans make mistakes. Even fictional ones. Because nobody would believe in a fictional humanoid character that is perfect (which is perhaps why Superman is such an unpopular character...just look at the sales charts). Though Spawn has devoted his career to redeeming himself, the fact is, is that he used evil to escape his own evil. Where as Peter used evil to escape the evil of others. This is perhaps a sign of just how extreme certain fans are becoming. The end result of these new Spidey stories really isn't that bad.
 
That is a juxtaposition best left alone. Even hyperbole could not justify that. Spawn was a man who thought he was doing good deeds, when in fact his good intentions paved his road to hell. Once in hell, he bartered his soul away in exchange for leading the army of the devil (Melbolgia) against the armies of Heaven. Spawn was a man of serious sin (even if unwittingly) who did further damage willingly. Spider-Man is a wear mortal trying to stay on the right path (and who usually does) and is caught off guard. If Spider-Man were comparable to anyone, it would likely be Samson, who was once God's chosen warrior, but was led astray.

Just because these characters are super heroes, does not mean that we can forget that they are mortal and human. Humans make mistakes. Even fictional ones. Because nobody would believe in a fictional humanoid character that is perfect (which is perhaps why Superman is such an unpopular character...just look at the sales charts). Though Spawn has devoted his career to redeeming himself, the fact is, is that he used evil to escape his own evil. Where as Peter used evil to escape the evil of others. This is perhaps a sign of just how extreme certain fans are becoming. The end result of these new Spidey stories really isn't that bad.

Let's all review what happened with Ghost rider. because the funny thing is its VERY similar to Spidey's OMD. it also shows mephisto has his limits. every other line I will be referring to spidey. it wont seem similar at first but watch...

Johnny blaze got mixed up with some stunt show performers called the simpsons. (:woot: heh)

Spidey was living in hiding with his family. mj and aunt may.

His Bud Crash Simpson eventually fell sick of cancer.

Aunt may was on her death bed because of a gun shot wound.

Blazed joined a cult and used a summon spell.

Spidey said he'd sell his sould.

Mephisto appears and says he'll restore crash if johnny gives up his soul.

Mephisto appears and says he'll restore aunt may in return for the spider marriage.

Mephisto heals crash. and crash later dies in a stunt. (mephisto screwed johnny over.) cant steal his soul because roxanne comes in and instead binds him to zarathos or something like that....he becomes the ghost rider as a result.

Mephisto heals aunt may. goes back in time retcons the spider marriage. resurrects harry. remasks spidey's identity, returns the webshooters and aunt may is well. plus im pretty sure he's created menace and jackpot in some way. it is plain obvious he's done SOMETHING to mj.

THAT is horrible story telling. just like peter. Mephisto was another victim of suddenly rewriting that character to fit a stories specifics. in this case it was an agenda.
 
I think the fans would have been pissed off regardless of "whatever" method used...

However, all the closet christians are now coming out standing on their soapboxes because "ooooh, the devil" was used instead of "fill-in-the-blank"... and it gives them some sort of holier than thou blanket to lay on when the reality is THEY ARE COMICS!!!!

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

What you view with your eyes you put into your mind and for some people it's like hypnotism.
It's like Sampling...and than you get more and more interested into it.
Like that 18 year old adult film star on the Tyra banks show? she got into that biz because she watched films of that genre with her friends at the age of 16.
(long story as to why i watched that show...lol.)

Christians aren't getting upset over nothing. The ones that get up and announce these things on the news just need better ways to explain why there upset.

Comics aside Spider-man is a mega franchise for kids. look at all the toys and cereal boxes and magazines he's on. and now it's been written as being ok to sell out to the devil. This is NOT a comic for little kids it hasn't been for YEARS. and its getting further from it even in BND.

look how many times the f-bomb was dropped in the first issue of BND. and Joey Q says he's trying to make Spidey more relatable for the kids? by having a non married Spidey?? BULL!
 
There are similarities in Peter and Blaze's misfortunes, but Peter did not actively seek out the devil. Mephisto came to him. Peter also did not sell his soul. And unlike Johnny Blaze, Peter did not pledge any sort of allegiance to the devil. Spawn is like Ghost Rider. Peter...not so much. Your comparison Styleshift, would be like comparing Nazi genocide (Johnny Blaze) to Charles Manson (Peter Parker). Yes both suck, but one is leagues apart from the other.
 
look how many times the f-bomb was dropped in the first issue of BND. and Joey Q says he's trying to make Spidey more relatable for the kids? by having a non married Spidey?? BULL!

I didn't see any "f-bombs" in any Spider-Man comic...

I did see a bunch of ^%#^%#$#&&^#'s... which are the same type of ^%#$#&^'s that I read during Stan Lee's Spider-Man in the 60's.

I'm not trying to justify the use of Mephisto... we've all agreed it was a crappy story, but BND has definitely made Spider-Man more relatable to kids, in MY opinion.

:yay:
 
There are similarities in Peter and Blaze's misfortunes, but Peter did not actively seek out the devil. Mephisto came to him. Peter also did not sell his soul. And unlike Johnny Blaze, Peter did not pledge any sort of allegiance to the devil. Spawn is like Ghost Rider. Peter...not so much. Your comparison Styleshift, would be like comparing Nazi genocide (Johnny Blaze) to Charles Manson (Peter Parker). Yes both suck, but one is leagues apart from the other.

But the thing is...I wasn't comparing the two by their personality. lol.
I was comparing there situation and how Pete seemed to get so much more out of it than Johnny.

He doesn't have to deal with magic spider totem beings anymore as a plus.
We all know mephisto will do something. but my point is that Mephisto has a limit on just what he can do. he needs acceptance from a character from what they've shown.

Johnny traded his soul to save crash's life.

Pete on the other hand traded his marriage. lost his crappy other powers. got remasked, harry's back, aunt may's alive and well. and he no longer has to face those strange spider totem villians. sure Menance and Mj may tie up the mephisto plot.

I know mj offered him something blah blah whatever. i could probably make jokes but lets keep this pg rated.

in short mephisto changed way more than just one thing in exchange for the marriage without going back on it. in most cases these things are for the better for spidey.
 
I didn't see any "f-bombs" in any Spider-Man comic...

I did see a bunch of ^%#^%#$#&&^#'s... which are the same type of ^%#$#&^'s that I read during Stan Lee's Spider-Man in the 60's.

I'm not trying to justify the use of Mephisto... we've all agreed it was a crappy story, but BND has definitely made Spider-Man more relatable to kids, in MY opinion.

:yay:

i give you that. but it doesn't make it ok because they did it back than. lol
they've never done it to this obvious degree however.

shut the &@!% up!
thats how they've been putting it 4 letters and all so you can easily figure it out. when i read it i was like dang...they might as well have spelled it out...lol.

im not knocking bnd for that. i just thought it was stupid to say ok we're taking out the marriage and dumbing down the book to make it more relatable to kids....
and one of the first pages you open has "spidey" with a gun directly pointing at the reader cursing up a storm. lol.
 
That is what makes the resolution of OMD so good. Not only do we return Spidey to his classic era, but we know that behind the lighter one shot stories and long term villain plots (Freak for instance) there is an even deeper issue that is going down. It is a mixture of classic and modern Marvel all rolled into one book. Also, no more annoying seperate stories in each title. Now that there is only Amazing and it is thrice monthly...I don't think I could ask for much more.
 
.

I'm not trying to justify the use of Mephisto... we've all agreed it was a crappy story, but BND has definitely made Spider-Man more relatable to kids, in MY opinion.

:yay:
Kids ruin all sorts of good entertianment because the creators try to tie it to them. I know, I used to be one.

If the direction is to be relatable to kids, I think that is really bad direction to go. With the recent Marvel Movie success, being a big fan of comics was becoming really mainstream. Almost cool and normal. If you are oging to make it relatable to kids, you go back to the sterotype that collecting comics is an immature thing to do.

I don't know who wants that....
 
Kids ruin all sorts of good entertianment because the creators try to tie it to them. I know, I used to be one.

If the direction is to be relatable to kids, I think that is really bad direction to go. With the recent Marvel Movie success, being a big fan of comics was becoming really mainstream. Almost cool and normal. If you are oging to make it relatable to kids, you go back to the sterotype that collecting comics is an immature thing to do.

I don't know who wants that....

Kids aren't really ruining anything. Of course you are going to have characters like Spider-Man and the mainstream characters aimed at kids to a certain degree. But comic book reading in general is kind of mainstream now mainly due to the fact of the more adult oriented titles that have been getting attention. Many comic films coming out are from more adult oriented arenas. They are making the Watchmen movie. Movie companies are optioning a lot of the Vertigo stuff from DC. Adults do dominate the comic stands these days though.
 
Kids aren't really ruining anything. Of course you are going to have characters like Spider-Man and the mainstream characters aimed at kids to a certain degree.
The kids ruining everything was kinda tounge in cheek :)
But I mean, kids have the animated show (though I know a lot of adults who watch it), and they can have ultimate Spiderman for a great introduction (don't have to know soooo much history) to Spiderman. They do have a lot of stuff aimed at them.


But comic book reading in general is kind of mainstream now mainly due to the fact of the more adult oriented titles that have been getting attention. Many comic films coming out are from more adult oriented arenas. They are making the Watchmen movie. Movie companies are optioning a lot of the Vertigo stuff from DC. Adults do dominate the comic stands these days though.
I dunno. I kinda think the mainsteam superheros should have adult appeal. That doesn't mean swearing and ****, but just not trying to purposley appeal to children. Spider-man, X-men, Batman, Superman should all appeal to adults just as much as kids.

My whole point is that you should want your flagship character to have an "appeal to kids" stigma around it.
 
I figured you were just busting chops with the "Kids are ruining everything" but you never know with this board, haha.

But, yeah, Spider-Man, Batman, etc. should have an adult appeal to them as well considering that the majority of their fanbase are in their 20's, 30's, and 40's. But my point was that with those characters you are going to have certain things that will appeal to children and teens to suck them into the books as well.

Marvel has the Marvel Adventures titles which are just mainly aimed at kids. Both companies do have their own kids books but I see where you are coming from. But when things get too kiddy for me I will just move on to the things that do appeal to me.
 

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