The Dark Knight Rises Paralleles between Nolanverse and Burtonverse

[Godzilla2014]

Hate to bust up everybody's little fantasy about Christ Nolans "moral" Batman,
but the biggest similarity between the two franchises is that Batman is a VERY prolific murderer. The difference is, Burton's Batman is completely unapologetic. Whereas Nolan's is completely confused. BOTH were MASS murderers.

Keaton blew up a chemical plant with a ton of thugs in it.

Bale blew up a monastery PACKED with ninjas (and possibly prisoners) in it.


Keaton "assisted" in killing the Joker (i.e. the center of the movie).

Bale "assisted" in killing Two-Face (i.e. the center of the movie).


Keaton let somebody die.

Bale let somebody die.



Clooney is the only live action Batman (someone correct me if I'm wrong) NOT to kill ANYONE.

I'm going to defend Bale's Bruce Wayne blowing up the monastery. You have to keep in mind that his options were far more limited at that point, as he lacked the gadgets and body armor he later used as Batman. What else could he have done realistically?

 

[Miranda Fox]

I can't abide Batman, but I love Batman Returns for what it is... An entirely peculiar elseworlds tale.

Agreed.

In any case any similarities between the film verses seem pretty superficial to me.

 

[raybia]

Agreed.

In any case any similarities between the film verses seem pretty superficial to me.

Agreed. Superficial and coincidental. Good to see you again Miranda!

 

[バット人]

*Both Batman and The Dark Knight feature Joker and Harvey Dent




Michelle Pfieffer looks better in that scene. Anne Hathaway looks a little weird.



Jack Nicholson's Joker invented the 'pencil trick'.

Yeah the mask ball with Bruce and Selina as well as the "killing with a writing utensil are" some good ones. My personal favorite is the Batmissile/Batpod comparison and this,

The most obvious one is the "c'mon you gruesome son of a *****" and "c'mon hit me" scenes though.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Agreed. Superficial and coincidental. Good to see you again Miranda!

RAYBIA! t:

 

[raybia]

RAYBIA! t:

There must be another Nolan Batman movie on the horizon!t:

 

[Frodo]

That's all true. Problem is that Buerton's Batman killed, period. Nolan's Batman said he wouldn't kill and yet he did all kind of things to endager other people's lives.

True, though i'd submit that Nolan put that in as a plot point to show that Bruce is in over his head and his mistakes cost the lives of the woman he loved and Gotham's great hope. He also attracted freaks like the Joker to Gotham because he naively felt that dressing up in a suite and going ape*** on the mob wouldn't have a blow back. In both films Alfred commented on his recklessness and his simple view of the world. Nolan's Bruce , is naive and makes mistakes , alot of them grave. That's what make's him interesting to me.

Keaton's Bruce was also interesting but Burton wasn't too interested in getting too deep in what made him tick . Burton felt that the character worked better as being a mystery to the audience.

 

[antsman41]

Batman can't save everyone, he's failed numerous times in the comics from Denny ONeils run up to Morrison. Just recently Bats failed at saving an attacker falling to their death in Snyders run ad Bruce felt bad and it didn't go on his "killing" tab because he never killed him. Just like Ra's and Harvey...

 

[バット人]

Batman can't save everyone, he's failed numerous times in the comics from Denny ONeils run up to Morrison . . . Harvey...

I'll give you Ras (though, I'd argue that most interpretations of Batman, comics and animated, would have the compassion to save Ras or any villain from certain doom) but I don't see how Dent doesn't count as a kill. It most certainly does. It's Batman's fault Dent was shoved. Batman is the cause of Dent's fall. Batman is the reason that Dent was sprawled out at the bottom of the hole with his neck broken.

Make no mistake, Batman did this, and for good reason. His one rule should break when an innocent child's life is in danger. I don't care if "oh, Batman didn't know the hole was there" the fact of the matter is, due to Batman's actions, Dent's life was ended. Batman killed Harvey Dent, plain and simple. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Gordon thanks Batman and why Batman not only delivers that hurt "you don't have to thank me" but why he takes the blame for Dent's killing spree as well. There was more to it than just Gotham losing hope, Batman kind of owed it to Dent (and Rachel), the good, inspiring Dent to take the blame in the end. Not only did he let Dent take the blame at the press conference, he let the Joker burn Dent "half to hell" but he killed him as well.

 

[storyteller]

I think some things are just something you can't avoid because its Batman. Batman has a batplane and he works in an urban environment. Its difficult to avoid that when you bring something like that in. Its very hard to avoid the unmasking while knocked out thing because again its something Batman does. Destruction of Bats toys also.

 

[DigificWriter]

Beyond the tangible similarities that others have mentioned, I think there's a very similar tonal quality that is shared between the Burton and Nolan films, and honestly believe that it would've been very possible for Nolan to have conscripted certain characterization aspects for both The Penguin and The Riddler and used them in his stories should have chosen to include those two particular characters in his interpretations. I also firmly believe that Jim Carrey's Riddler would've fit very nicely into the Nolan-verse with little to no alterations (except for maybe Carrey - whom I believe would've been the perfect person to play the character in the Nolan-verse - toning down his portrayal a bit).

BTW, before anyone says that Batman Forever wasn't a Burton film, it might not have been directed by him, but it very much retained his whimsical gothic/noir style, and it is for that reason that I consider it part of his particular take on the Batman mythos.

 

[The_Fire_Rises]

Beyond the tangible similarities that others have mentioned, I think there's a very similar tonal quality that is shared between the Burton and Nolan films, and honestly believe that it would've been very possible for Nolan to have conscripted certain characterization aspects for both The Penguin and The Riddler and used them in his stories should have chosen to include those two particular characters in his interpretations. I also firmly believe that Jim Carrey's Riddler would've fit very nicely into the Nolan-verse with little to no alterations (except for maybe Carrey - whom I believe would've been the perfect person to play the character in the Nolan-verse - toning down his portrayal a bit).

Nolan's characterizations are so far and beyond Burton's that it's not even fair to compare them, IMO.

 

[DigificWriter]

If you were to subtract some of the blatantly grotesquely macabre characterization aspects of The Penguin's portrayal in Batman Returns, he would fit very neatly into the Nolan-verse, IMO.

The same thing applies to The Riddler, although the only thing about Jim Carrey's portrayal of the character that might need to be changed would be some of his more over-the-top and outlandish 'mad hatter'-esque behavior.

Beyond The Penguin and Riddler feeling, IMO, like they could very easily be transplanted from the Burton films to the Nolan films with only a few minor alterations, I think there are similarities in terms of the tone of the films; Batman Begins, IMO, has a similar quality to both Batman and Batman Forever, at least in certain places (such as the way that Bruce Wayne interacts with the world in both of those films, particularly Batman Forever), and TDK and Batman Returns also share similar tonal qualities. The character of Max Schrek also reminds me in some respects of the corrupt cops in both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, and there are also some similarities, IMO, in terms of his characterization and some of the ways in which Nolan and Heath Ledger chose to demonstrate the Joker's off-kilter nature.

 

[The_Fire_Rises]

If you were to subtract some of the blatantly grotesquely macabre characterization aspects of The Penguin's portrayal in Batman Returns, he would fit very neatly into the Nolan-verse, IMO.

The same thing applies to The Riddler, although the only thing about Jim Carrey's portrayal of the character that might need to be changed would be some of his more over-the-top and outlandish 'mad hatter'-esque behavior.

Beyond The Penguin and Riddler feeling, IMO, like they could very easily be transplanted from the Burton films to the Nolan films with only a few minor alterations, I think there are similarities in terms of the tone of the films; Batman Begins, IMO, has a similar quality to both Batman and Batman Forever, at least in certain places (such as the way that Bruce Wayne interacts with the world in both of those films, particularly Batman Forever), and TDK and Batman Returns also share similar tonal qualities. The character of Max Schrek also reminds me in some respects of the corrupt cops in both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, and there are also some similarities, IMO, in terms of his characterization and some of the ways in which Nolan and Heath Ledger chose to demonstrate the Joker's off-kilter nature.

So in Nolan's universe, The Penguin wouldn't actually be a Penguin/human hybrid, right? So, if you take away all of the grotesque and macabre elements of Burton's Penguin character, is that not a completely different character all together?

I'll agree with you on The Riddler. Before Jim starts chewing scenery left and right I very much like the way the character is portrayed.

Max Schrek, IMO, is one of the most useless, shoehorned in characters I can remember in a movie.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ No, because you'd be retaining the physical deformities and mentally disturbed personality traits of Burton's take on The Penguin, but dropping the 'raised by anthropomorphic penguins' and 'eating raw fish' aspects of the character (similar to what was done in Batman: The Animated Series and The Batman).

To me, Carrey's version of the Riddler feels very much like an uber version of the character as portrayed by Frank Gorshin, but 'Carrey-ified' to fit the over-the-top, larger-than-life persona that defined his movie performances at the time. Despite that, though, the character, at least IMO, feels very real and not as 'comic-booky' as the Joker, The Penguin, or even Burton's Catwoman, and therefore feels like he could very easily be transplanted into Nolan's more grounded, less overtly comic-booky take on the Batman characters and mythology.

I'm not really going to agree or disagree with you on Schrek and how useful or not he is to Batman Returns' storyline, but I still stand by what I said in terms of feeling like there are similarities between him and some of the supporting characters who have shown up in the Nolan-verse thus far.

 

[jonathancrane]

I do not know if this has been posted, but wanted to mention it while it is still fresh in my mind ( a la while I am watching the film.) I loved how the Penguin's speech is concluded with, "The liberation of Gotham has begun." When one considers what his plan was - to have the Penguins deploy their missiles and slaughter Gothamites - and what Bane said, and did at the field, the similarities are quite striking.

 

[Alonsovich]

The most obvious one: The rubber suit.

Also... to the comments of Bruce mass murdering in the monastery... the dialogue there is "I'm no EXECUTIONER"... not "I'm no murderer". He didn't execute those ninjas or execute Harvey. They're collateral damage of an explosion used as a distraction to escape or him jumping to save a child from getting his brains blown away. Ra's not being saved is a moot point, since he was trained and skilled enough to find a way out of that train, he just chose not to. It's a far different situation than putting a bomb on a guy's chest and smiling to him before he blows up or setting a pair of gang members on fire. The difference between the Burtonverse and Nolanverse Batman is not the killing itself, but the intention on killing.

 

[Elevator Man]

I'm going to defend Bale's Bruce Wayne blowing up the monastery. You have to keep in mind that his options were far more limited at that point, as he lacked the gadgets and body armor he later used as Batman. What else could he have done realistically?

Bruce could've pointed behind both Ras' and the ninjas and said "LOOK ELEPHANT!" It worked in Last Action Hero. t:

But seriously they could've found a better way to handle that situation, imo. This as well many other scenes is why i'm not that fond of BB. They just wanted to throw in an action scene with some explosions. With that slick stunt in the end.

 

[Brain Damage]

Nolan's characterizations are so far and beyond Burton's that it's not even fair to compare them, IMO.

I'm gonna have to agree with this statement. I love the Burton movies for what they are, but when comparing them to Nolan's work they just feel small, flat and lazy.

I think the biggest reason for this is Batman's lack of development. While the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman are all very much developed and explored, Batman is left with very little development.

At the beginning of the first film he starts out fully formed as Batman and by the end nothing's really changed and he hasn't learned anything, he gets his revenge on his parent's killer but this is literally only explored in one scene that never truly gets developed.

Batman Returns was a little better at this by establishing Bruce/Batman and Selina/Catwoman's relationship and the parallels between them. That's why I think Returns is the best of the old movies. I especially love the final scene, the glimmer of hope in Bruce's eye as he catches a glimpse of the cat was wonderful.

Honestly, out of the old franchise, the only movie that I felt truly developed Batman's character such that he started in one place at the beginning and another at the end was Forever; the deleted scenes show even more of this and there's some truly great stuff in there.

 

[Frodo]

I think the whole characterization thong grisly comes from the different storytelling stlyes of Burton and Nolan. Burton wanted Batman to remain a mystery to the audience and as a result didn't want to delve too deeply into the characters motivations though his was intrigued by their psyches . Him
an however is very logical and thus brings a sense of logic to the characters actions and motivations. Burton however places more emphasis on the mood and atmosphere the characters inhabit and not so much on the logic behind their actions. in that sense, Nolan looks at the mind while Burton looks at the heart.

 

[Polaris23]

Those villains love to crash parties. ALL of them:

B89: Joker crashes the museum and vandalizes it.
BR: Penguin, "You didn't invite me, so I craaaashed!"
BF: Two-Face crashes the circus, or even more appropriately, the Ritz Gotham party.
B&R: Mr. Freeze crashes the party where, conveniently, Batman and Robin already were.
BB: Ra's al Ghul crashes Wayne's birthday party.
TDK: Joker crashes Bruce's fund raiser for Dent.

 

[Brain Damage]

Those villains love to crash parties. ALL of them:

B89: Joker crashes the museum and vandalizes it.
BR: Penguin, "You didn't invite me, so I craaaashed!"
BF: Two-Face crashes the circus, or even more appropriately, the Ritz Gotham party.
B&R: Mr. Freeze crashes the party where, conveniently, Batman and Robin already were.
BB: Ra's al Ghul crashes Wayne's birthday party.
TDK: Joker crashes Bruce's fund raiser for Dent.

The ultimate Batman villains.

 

[Blue Sugar]

I am a Nolanite but I love Batman Returns.

 

[AnneFan]

I am a Nolanite but I love Batman Returns.

I'm a Batmanite and love both Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman.

 

[Polaris23]

I will say that BR probably has my favourite set designs ever. That movie has so much atmosphere it's ridiculous.

That's probably ALL it has...