The Dark Knight Rises Paralleles between Nolanverse and Burtonverse

[Polaris23]

The ultimate Batman villains.

I think it's a requirement if you want to be a Batman villain haha

 

[jmc]

I think Returns is actually one of Burton's better movies. Not a great Batman film admittedly, but a good movie none the less. I've got to agree with the above posts that Burton's Batman series really don't do much in terms of developing Bruce Wayne, each film was very villain centric in terms of story, Joker in '89, Catwoman/Penguin in Returns, Riddler in Forever, Freeze and Ivy in B&R. In fact I've always felt that Bruce Wayne was playing second fiddle in those films.

 

[The_Fire_Rises]

That's probably ALL it has...

Agreed, 100%.

This could just be me, but from a script writing standpoint, I tend to think of BR as one of the biggest messes on film i've ever seen, even though I do enjoy the look of it.

And what really bugs me about the movie is how goddamn pretenious it is. I've always felt that the darkness in the film was on overload to try and mask how it's plot, characters and overall quality were all lacking in various, but ultimately serious, ways.

I've never felt anyone who worked on Burton's films gave a damn about the Batman characters or universe. It's just Burton making a typical Burton movie; aesthetically stellar, but lacking in any and all substance whatsoever.

That's what makes the difference for me between the Nolan and Burton films; Nolan's films are engrossing both from a visual and story level; the characters are fleshed out and you actually care what's going on.

 

[Gianakin_]

It's not just you. BR has no script. Just pretty shots. Burton himself said they had trouble coming up with something interesting to do with Batman/Bruce. It was all about the villains, and especially Penguin.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Batman villains: crashing y0 parties since 1989!

 

[El Payaso]

I am a Nolanite but I love Batman Returns.

Oh I love what Burton did, but TDK is a masterpiece.

 

[El Payaso]

It's not just you. BR has no script. Just pretty shots. Burton himself said they had trouble coming up with something interesting to do with Batman/Bruce. It was all about the villains, and especially Penguin.

And yet you had Bruce Wayne trying to believe in love again, opposing to Schreck's power plant, trying to unmask Penguin and prove he was a phony Gotham benefactor, trying to save Schreck and Selina at the same time.

 

[Gianakin_]

And yet you had Bruce Wayne trying to believe in love again, opposing to Schreck's power plant, trying to unmask Penguin and prove he was a phony Gotham benefactor, trying to save Schreck and Selina at the same time.

Heh, you're later than expected. I know that whenever I badmouth BR, you'll be there to argue with me. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you said. There was a semblance of an effort to say what you've mentioned, but that was as far as Winters and Burton got.

 

[El Payaso]

Heh, you're later than expected. I know that whenever I badmouth BR, you'll be there to argue with me.

Spoiler

But I disagree, I don't come here to argue with you, but to present another point of view. This is nothing personal.

Needless to say, I disagree with everything you said. There was a semblance of an effort to say what you've mentioned, but that was as far as Winters and Burton got.

Semblance of an effort was to have it on the script and then on the screen. I'm good with that. Now, what else was needed? Long speeches verbalizing what was happening?

I can agree that BR had narrative problems and many of the topics were buried in a lot of things going on, but that doesn't mean they weren't there, or that there wasn't a script as you stated.

 

[Gianakin_]

Spoiler

But I disagree, I don't come here to argue with you, but to present another point of view. This is nothing personal.

Oh, don't worry about it! I never take our arguments personally.

Semblance of an effort was to have it on the script and then on the screen. I'm good with that. Now, what else was needed? Long speeches verbalizing what was happening?

If you take the Bruce fighting Shreck politically or financially, then I needed something more than "Well, I'm gonna fight you on this". He did fight him as Batman I guess, but that's not what I needed to get a legitimate subplot rather than a throwaway line that tried to pass for a theme.

I can agree that BR had narrative problems and many of the topics were buried in a lot of things going on, but that doesn't mean they weren't there, or that there wasn't a script as you stated.

I was being hyperbolic. Of course there was a script. Of course there were themes. The ideas were poorly or hastily executed, that's all.

 

[El Payaso]

Oh, don't worry about it! I never take our arguments personally.



If you take the Bruce fighting Shreck politically or financially, then I needed something more than "Well, I'm gonna fight you on this". He did fight him as Batman I guess, but that's not what I needed to get a legitimate subplot rather than a throwaway line that tried to pass for a theme.



I was being hyperbolic. Of course there was a script. Of course there were themes. The ideas were poorly or hastily executed, that's all.

I call that quick execution. There was more than one line, it was a scene. And many directors and movies need one scene only to make a point. Now, you can find everything, from the directors who need to explain everything verbally or by making repetitive scenes or those who needed more to make something clear. But it's far from Bruce doing 'nothing'. Nothing of which relates to parallels between Nolan and Burton's takes.

 

[Infinity9999x]

One of the biggest parallels I've noticed between the two is the way Alfred has been portrayed. Alfred in both versions shows open concern at Bruce's actions, and trys to do things to help him. Now, yeah, I know Alfred letting Vale in the Batcave isn't really the best alternative, but I did like the idea behind what they were trying to convey.

In particular, I like Caine's new line from the trailer, "I swore to them that I would protect you, and I haven't"

and then put that against

"I have no wish to spend my remaining years grieving over the loss of old friends...or their sons."

Both have similar intent, but are delievered in different ways. As many have said, B89's Batman has the appearance of a seasoned Batman. Controlled, caculating, he's been doing this for a while, as opposed to (thus far) the younger, more rage driven and inexperineced Batman of Bale. In the same way, I think B89's Alfred seems older and more worn as well, and the differences of those two lines, while having similar intent, show where each Alred is in terms of their concern for Bruce and own personal struggle with the Batman legacy.

 

[Frodo]

I'm a Batmanite and love both Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman.

I grew up with the old franchise, but I really do prefer Nolan's films. B89 and BF are my favorite of the old series but they're still flawed IMO.

 

[Cain]

I got love for all the Batman movies even the ones you guys hate

I think the most obvious nod in Nolan's movies was "I'm Batman" since it's something that was actually exclusive to the Burton movie since no comic or other media adaptation ever used it prior to that.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I got love for all the Batman movies even the ones you guys hate

I think the most obvious nod in Nolan's movies was "I'm Batman" since it's something that was actually exclusive to the Burton movie since no comic or other media adaptation ever used it prior to that.

Agreed. And also, while I prefer Nolan's films, B89's "I"m Batman" is by far the best use of the phrase. That moment was actually what made me a Batman fan as a kid. I first saw the movie when I was 8, and I remember how that moment gave me chills. Still one of my favorite comic book moments of all time.

 

[jmc]

Yeah, looking at it through adult eyes '89 does have some pretty big problems with it, but as a kid that film essentially cemented me as a Batman fan for life and so I'll always give it a free pass, up until then I was always hovering between Bats and Superman.

 

[Elevator Man]

One of the biggest parallels I've noticed between the two is the way Alfred has been portrayed. Alfred in both versions shows open concern at Bruce's actions, and trys to do things to help him. Now, yeah, I know Alfred letting Vale in the Batcave isn't really the best alternative, but I did like the idea behind what they were trying to convey.

In particular, I like Caine's new line from the trailer, "I swore to them that I would protect you, and I haven't"

and then put that against

"I have no wish to spend my remaining years grieving over the loss of old friends...or their sons."

Both have similar intent, but are delievered in different ways. As many have said, B89's Batman has the appearance of a seasoned Batman. Controlled, caculating, he's been doing this for a while, as opposed to (thus far) the younger, more rage driven and inexperineced Batman of Bale. In the same way, I think B89's Alfred seems older and more worn as well, and the differences of those two lines, while having similar intent, show where each Alred is in terms of their concern for Bruce and own personal struggle with the Batman legacy.

Bruce was just starting as Batman as well in B89. He's only been out there for a few days when the movie opened.

 

[El Payaso]

Yeah, looking at it through adult eyes '89 does have some pretty big problems with it, but as a kid that film essentially cemented me as a Batman fan for life and so I'll always give it a free pass, up until then I was always hovering between Bats and Superman.

As a 1989 adult you couldn't see anything dramatically wrong with it.

 

[KalMart]

Yeah, looking at it through adult eyes '89 does have some pretty big problems with it, but as a kid that film essentially cemented me as a Batman fan for life and so I'll always give it a free pass, up until then I was always hovering between Bats and Superman.

I actually wished in '89 that I was younger in regards to seeing the movie and that I may have enjoyed it more. But by then, the Dark Knight Returns Comic had come out, and I had gotten more into examples of how gritty and more adult-driven aspects of Batman could be beyond what he was in the 60's shows and television cartoons. B'89 felt like a bit of a step backwards from that, if you will, and also Burton's style just had a rather bitter taste for me. At the time, I remember feeling it should have been Cameron making the movie instead.

 

[バット人]

I'm a Batmanite and love both Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman.

This.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Bruce could've pointed behind both Ras' and the ninjas and said "LOOK ELEPHANT!" It worked in Last Action Hero. t:

But seriously they could've found a better way to handle that situation, imo. This as well many other scenes is why i'm not that fond of BB. They just wanted to throw in an action scene with some explosions. With that slick stunt in the end.

What would you have honestly expected Bruce to do, given the situation? I'm not saying I condone Bruce blowing up the monastery, but seeing as to how few alternatives Bruce had, I'm not going to condemn it as him breaking his code.

 

[Banes_Dealer]

Danny DeVito's Penguin was F**KING EPIC. Recognize or be hospitalized... By a jacked up Tom Hardy.

 

[Elevator Man]

What would you have honestly expected Bruce to do, given the situation? I'm not saying I condone Bruce blowing up the monastery, but seeing as to how few alternatives Bruce had, I'm not going to condemn it as him breaking his code.

Honestly if I had my way. This scene wouldn't have happened period. I wouldn't have had Ras and the LOS training Bruce on being a crimefighter. Let alone Batman. Which is another reason I'm not too fond of this movie. Since Ras and the LOS were never involved in Batman's origins. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Sadly, it's not my way. But he could've escaped without blowing up the place and killing everyone in there. He and Ras barely got out alive. Probably should've had one of the ninjas or the fake Ras cause the fire by accident while trying to stop Bruce from escaping. That way the destruction of the monastary was by the League's own doing.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Honestly if I had my way. This scene wouldn't have happened period. I wouldn't have had Ras and the LOS training Bruce on being a crimefighter. Let alone Batman. Which is another reason I'm not too fond of this movie. Since Ras and the LOS were never involved in Batman's origins. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Sadly, it's not my way. But he could've escaped without blowing up the place and killing everyone in there. He and Ras barely got out alive. Probably should've had one of the ninjas or the fake Ras cause the fire by accident while trying to stop Bruce from escaping. That way the destruction of the monastary was by the League's own doing.

I think you're missing the point of my question: How could Bruce have escaped without blowing up the monastery? What could he have done to escape the situation by his own hand?

 

[Elevator Man]

I think you're missing the point of my question: How could Bruce have escaped without blowing up the monastery?

So you think Bruce's only option to escape was to blow up the monastery?

What could he have done to escape the situation by his own hand?

I honestly don't know. But there's gotta be a better option than him causing a fire to blow up the place and getting ninjas, (fake) Ras, and the prisoner killed in order for him and Ras to barely escape. That scene made Bruce look like a hypocrite, imo.