The Dark Knight Rises Paralleles between Nolanverse and Burtonverse

[KalMart]

Maybe he was just looking to start a fire as a distraction...but it spread more than he was expecting and blew up the place.

 

[Godzilla2014]

So you think Bruce's only option to escape was to blow up the monastery?

Not necessarily. But it was one of a paucity of options he had. I have a hard time thinking of options that don't result in Bruce either killing or being killed by the other ninjas.

I honestly don't know. But there's gotta be a better option than him causing a fire to blow up the place and getting ninjas, (fake) Ras, and the prisoner killed in order for him and Ras to barely escape. That scene made Bruce look like a hypocrite, imo.

I just saw it as Bruce taking the most effective option he had to defend himself.

Maybe he was just looking to star a fire as a distraction...but it spread more than he was expecting and blew up the place.

Also a possibility.

 

[KalMart]

It's not like he was planning for days..."I've gotta get out of here..." He had like, eight seconds to decide and act. Everything he had devoted himself to and believed in turned on its head in an instant. So I think we should cut him a bit of slack if his solution wasn't exactly elegant.

 

[Godzilla2014]

It's not like he was planning for days..."I've gotta get out of here..." He had like, eight seconds to decide and act. Everything he had devoted himself to and believed in turned on its head in an instant. So I think we should cut him a bit of slack if his solution wasn't exactly elegant.

Exactly!

 

[Citadel30]

He was trying to create a distraction more than anything i believe. It was him against what... 50-100 ninjas? I'm sorry, but he didnt exactly have time to think of the most docile way to evade his imminent death in that situation.

 

[KalMart]

"...and there we go, fire...now if I could just....oh crap...oh CRAP...oh CRAP-OH-CRAP, HOT-HOT-HOT-HOT-WHOAAAA-SWOOORDDD-HOT-HOT-HOT....!!"

 

[Elevator Man]

Well regardless. I still don't like how the film executed that scene. Still should've had someone else cause the fire. The prisoner he didn't want to kill still ended up dead.

Besides Wayne got himself in the whole mess anyways. By leaving Gotham to only get himself locked up in a prison 10,000 miles away. Then Ras , who just so happens to be looking for vigilantes (in prisons ?) that he'd like to join his league , comes across Wayne and offers his help. Then Wayne accepts it . B/c it's better than rotting in prison with criminals that can't do any harm outside the prison anyway. Wayne knew what he was getting into. So he put himself in that situation anyways.

 

[KalMart]

I mean...did that guy who he refused to kill...which started the whole mess...make it out of the burning mansion alive?

 

[Elevator Man]

I mean...did that guy who he refused to kill...which started the whole mess...make it out of the burning mansion alive?

Doubt it. Since he was tied up. I'd find it hard trying escape with your arms tied behind your back with ninjas blowing up around you, explosions everywhere, and debris falling at you. Heck Bruce and Ras didn't exactly escape out of the Monastery either. An explosion blew them out of the window. And had them nearly falling to their death. Bruce and Ras barely escaped death twice in that scene.

 

[The_Fire_Rises]

On the whole murder issue, the biggest distinction to me has always been what Batman's intent appears to be.

In B89 and BR, he deliberately chooses to kill people, and at times, appears to enjoy it. Like a guy on fire? Sure! Strap a bomb to this dude over here? Sounds swell!

In the Nolan films, and TDK especially because of how many deaths result from Batman's inaction during The Joker's initial run at him, people die as a result of him, frankly, still learning on the job. Bruce is so early in his run as Batman in TDK that he still is firmly stuck in the mindset that his crusade for justice in Gotham is the most important thing, bar none, and that he can't give into The Joker's demands because of what that would do to his misson. If we run with the idea that he is indeed responsible for the first batch of people Joker kills (including the fake Batman) and Dent, it's because of his inexperience and, perhaps, arrogance to put himself and his cause above other people.

When he lights the fire in BB and takes down the temple, I would think that judging by Bruce's "i don't have to save you either' mentality, as long as he didn't directly and intentionally kill anyone in the temple, he's okay. It`s up to the men to get themselves out.

 

[jacobed]

In BB and TDK its all about him learning to be Batman. So the temple scene was just him making a decision and it going wrong, him getting caught by Scarecrow is something that would only happen to him because he is a rookie at the crime fighting. Things like him running over cop cars in the Tumbler or blowing up cars with the Batpod, those are scenes showing that he is letting his personal emotions get in the way of being Batman thus resulting in injuries to innocent people, things a more experienced Batman would not allow to happen.

In 89 and Returns, he kills plain and simple. He doesn't go out looking to kill but he will indeed execute and if he does its no big deal to him.

 

[Polaris23]

Yeah, looking at it through adult eyes '89 does have some pretty big problems with it, but as a kid that film essentially cemented me as a Batman fan for life and so I'll always give it a free pass, up until then I was always hovering between Bats and Superman.

That's me right there too.

 

[Gianakin_]

Stealth. The only way to do it would be to escape by being stealthy. Obviously you'd have to change the script in order for him to escape the night before having to execute the prisoner. Like, have the trial one day and then another "surprise" (the execution) for the next one. Bruce finds out what it is and escapes.

Thing is, you lose plot points and a big action sequence which is important for a movie like that.

 

[Gianakin_]

Then Ras , who just so happens to be looking for vigilantes (in prisons ?) that he'd like to join his league , comes across Wayne and offers his help.

There's no logic hole in Ra's recruiting in prisons.

 

[jab1118]

I feel like if the rest of movies his "rule not to kill" wasnt constantly brought up it wouldnt be as much of an issue. But because its talked about so much people are not willing to let him slide on all them ninjas. Now to me Ras is the much more glaring example. And his excuse doesnt fly. If I say cut the brakes on your car and you crash and die, well then Ive murdered you

 

[El Payaso]

I think you're missing the point of my question: How could Bruce have escaped without blowing up the monastery? What could he have done to escape the situation by his own hand?

He was trying to create a distraction more than anything i believe. It was him against what... 50-100 ninjas? I'm sorry, but he didnt exactly have time to think of the most docile way to evade his imminent death in that situation.

He was trained to fight 600 men.

I mean...did that guy who he refused to kill...which started the whole mess...make it out of the burning mansion alive?

He was tied up, and the movie didn't even botehr to show whatever happened to him.

Now to blow up a place with that tied up man inside just to save that man's life... yeah, that's stupid. In order to save one life he andangered that very life and 100 more. And at least another man ended up dead. That's why I think Bruce wasn't saving the man's life as much as avoiding to kill him himself. Which is not much brighter either.

On the whole murder issue, the biggest distinction to me has always been what Batman's intent appears to be.

In B89 and BR, he deliberately chooses to kill people, and at times, appears to enjoy it. Like a guy on fire? Sure! Strap a bomb to this dude over here? Sounds swell!

Yeah, sounds terrible when you write "people" instead of "criminals" or "killers." But it doies sound swell when you give those bastards a tad of their own medicine. Enjoying burning innocent people? Well, eat fire yourself. It does sound swell.

In the Nolan films, and TDK especially because of how many deaths result from Batman's inaction during The Joker's initial run at him, people die as a result of him, frankly, still learning on the job. Bruce is so early in his run as Batman in TDK that he still is firmly stuck in the mindset that his crusade for justice in Gotham is the most important thing, bar none, and that he can't give into The Joker's demands because of what that would do to his misson. If we run with the idea that he is indeed responsible for the first batch of people Joker kills (including the fake Batman) and Dent, it's because of his inexperience and, perhaps, arrogance to put himself and his cause above other people.

When he lights the fire in BB and takes down the temple, I would think that judging by Bruce's "i don't have to save you either' mentality, as long as he didn't directly and intentionally kill anyone in the temple, he's okay. It`s up to the men to get themselves out.

Ah yes, you make a bomb explode inside of a place without any warning: it's other people's responsibility to abandon the place in time, specially that tied up man who could barely move. Beautiful.

When Batman blows up Axis, the entrance of the Batmobile was warning enough for Joker's thugs and they stayed (and of course there was no tied up man inside). But blowing up the monastery came without any warning. In fact it was supposed to be an unexpected move.

In BB and TDK its all about him learning to be Batman. So the temple scene was just him making a decision and it going wrong, him getting caught by Scarecrow is something that would only happen to him because he is a rookie at the crime fighting. Things like him running over cop cars in the Tumbler or blowing up cars with the Batpod, those are scenes showing that he is letting his personal emotions get in the way of being Batman thus resulting in injuries to innocent people, things a more experienced Batman would not allow to happen.

In 89 and Returns, he kills plain and simple. He doesn't go out looking to kill but he will indeed execute and if he does its no big deal to him.

I agree about him and the Scarecrow, he didn't know his enemy and failed.

But blowing up the monastery? How much ninja training do you need to get that blowing up a place without a warning could result in casualties? Specially for a tied up man (who you're supposed to be saving)?

How about crushing cop cars mercilessly? How much learning do you need to get that's wrong and that people are very likely to result dead or severely injuried? How much learning does it take to know that one girl is not more important than dozens of policemen?

Now at the very least the Tumbler scene was addressed by Alfred. But the monastery blowing up was treated as a cool thing Bruce just did. We don't even know whatever happened to the tied up man, we just saw ninjas flying off the place. And I don't believe that Ducard was the only one sent off to that precipice.

I'm not an executioner, and I'll kill you all to prove it.

And do you realize that in Batman Returns the Batmobile also crushes a lot of cop cars.... but because it was the villiain taking control of Batman's car??? BR's Batman was actually trying to save those people from his own car whereas in Begins he was actually trying to crush them away.

 

[Mr. Fixit]

When he lights the fire in BB and takes down the temple, I would think that judging by Bruce's "i don't have to save you either' mentality, as long as he didn't directly and intentionally kill anyone in the temple, he's okay. It`s up to the men to get themselves out.

I tend to agree. In the case of BB the men in danger were highly trained ninjas. Even injured I'd think they could make their way out of a burning building like Bruce did.

Also Nolan showed Bruce going out of his way to save Ras in that scene.

 

[The_Fire_Rises]

He was trained to fight 600 men.

Yeah, sounds terrible when you write "people" instead of "criminals" or "killers." But it doies sound swell when you give those bastards a tad of their own medicine. Enjoying burning innocent people? Well, eat fire yourself. It does sound swell.

Do you....do you actually understand anything to do with the Batman character at all? Like, seriously.

Ah yes, you make a bomb explode inside of a place without any warning: it's other people's responsibility to abandon the place in time, specially that tied up man who could barely move. Beautiful.

I'm not saying it makes Bruce out to be a wonderful guy or anything. Also, the monestary was full of highly trained ninjas hand picked by Ra's. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have picked guys who couldn't escape from a burning building now and again.

How about crushing cop cars mercilessly? How much learning do you need to get that's wrong and that people are very likely to result dead or severely injuried? How much learning does it take to know that one girl is not more important than dozens of policemen?

Kind of one of the main points of BB and TDK, but thanks.

 

[El Payaso]

Do you....do you actually understand anything to do with the Batman character at all? Like, seriously.

So... you're just not going to address the point? Just disregard the opinion as a whole? If you wanted to sound too wise to reply properly, it's not working...

I'm not saying it makes Bruce out to be a wonderful guy or anything. Also, the monestary was full of highly trained ninjas hand picked by Ra's. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have picked guys who couldn't escape from a burning building now and again.

So you just decided to skip the part of the movie - and my post - where there was this guy who was not a ninja and whose hands were tied up? And that part where expert ninjas - Ducard included - were expelled towards a precipice as a direrct consequence of Bruce's actions? And his very master died for the same reasons?

Kind of one of the main points of BB and TDK, but thanks.

That Batman claims that human life's sacred and then he just blows up places and crush policemen's cars? After addressing your points: Do you....do you actually understand anything to do with the Batman character at all? Like, seriously.

 

[KalMart]

He was tied up, and the movie didn't even botehr to show whatever happened to him.

Now to blow up a place with that tied up man inside just to save that man's life... yeah, that's stupid. In order to save one life he andangered that very life and 100 more. And at least another man ended up dead. That's why I think Bruce wasn't saving the man's life as much as avoiding to kill him himself. Which is not much brighter either.

Again....I think he tried to just do something, but f'd up big time and got the hell out of there.

I guess he forgot that it was grenade-making day for arts & crafts.

 

[TinkerTailor]

He was trained to fight 600 men.

But was he trained to fight 600 men who'd also been trained to fight 600 men.

 

[KalMart]

So that's like fighting....360,000 men....? That's some training, yo? But not in a fire....

 

[Banes_Dealer]

But was he trained to fight 600 men who'd also been trained to fight 600 men.

That each had 600 friends who fought 600 guys that fought Vin Diesel... and WON.

 

[KalMart]

The last guy that Wayne had to fight to make it out of the monastery had only made it up to 599 guys....so he just made it out by one guy.....or 1/600th the training....

 

[Banes_Dealer]

Damn, his training is so incomplete.