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Part III (Spoiler Thread)

Discussion in 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' started by DarthSkywalker, Jun 1, 2022.

  1. fan4stic Registered

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    That it worked though, I think doesn't mean that not only would Vader try a similar tactic, but also the Organas, I think logically, could be labeled as accomplices to traitors and terrorists.
    Vader seemed to think he could be alive in Rebels.
     
  2. Filmfan93 The Man in Black

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    One - they never establishd either of them were a Skywalker. Or we would've known by now. You can sit and hope for JJ's mystery boxes to open all you want. That ship has long sailed.

    Two - your point would make sense if she was adopted by the Skywalkers. Which she wasn't. It would also have a tiny bit of validity if she did something to deserve that surname. Which she didn't. No training from a young age, barely any time spent with Luke and sudden Force powers that come without any build up, just so that the plot can be moved forward. She didn't even have the third lesson given before she left the island and it was just waived at on a deleted scene.Luke didn't start training at a young age either, but guess what - he IS a Skywalker and his father's son. He also spent time
    being trained by Yoda and not physically chasing an old hermit through half the film, then having a few mins of "lessons" that barely advance Rey's physical or mental connection with the Force. Leia's training of Rey in TROS has already happened off screen in the beginning of the film - there is no development of the character. And it certainly doesn't make her a Skywalker by any means just that she got to hang around with one for a few months.. off screen.

    Three - the Solo name doesn't even remotely have the same weight to it that the Skywalker does in that universe. But when you try to shove the latter's name in a main saga film title (and these lightsaber shots), while not having the main character even being from that bloodline or having her go through any of the suffering or development that the Skywalkers did - then.. well yeah.

    The fact they included this trash line in Solo doesn't do much, as it was in a trash and immediately forgotten film anyway. Which to think about.. is not further away from the truth regarding TROS too :funny:
     
    #352 Filmfan93, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  3. Mjolnir Reborn Blunt Instrument

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    [​IMG]
    He has, and in an actual situation where he's about to do what the meme said while Rey is just looking at a desert landscape.

    He is a Solo though, as you say, but at least has Skywalker lineage and grew up with Luke, which I'd say feels more relevant than one of the most poorly built up attempts at fan service I've ever seen, so I certainly see the complaint.
     
    #353 Mjolnir Reborn, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  4. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    Just so we're clear, that's not the same shot. It's similar, but not the same. But I do think it's important to point out that JJ is responsible for that shot, the Rey shot, and the Leia shot. Reed and Chow did the follows, using two other Skywalkers. So if you want to be thematic about it, that makes Rey a Skywalker to those making these stories.

    Also since when did Kylo grow up with Luke? He grew up with his parents. He went to be with Luke at or near adulthood.

    Lineage can be earned or given. Blood entitles you to nothing.

    1. Yeah, I think you missed the point.

    2. They most certainly adopted her. I do love the idea that one must earn love and affection from others. That's just a level of gross I do not want to get into.

    3. Han Solo is the most popular character in Star Wars. Not that it matters, the principle applies.

    You can dislike whatever you want. Doesn't change canon, nor does it change that you saw someone enjoying Star Wars, and decided it was a problem. No wonder our fanbase gets a bad wrap.
     
    #354 DarthSkywalker, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
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  5. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    What line are you thinking of?
     
  6. Bobber Registered

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    I may be remembering wrong, but I do seem to remember reading somewhere that he moved to train with Luke around the age of ten.
     
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  7. Mjolnir Reborn Blunt Instrument

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    I'd say that's a bigger nitpick than anything regarding Rey's name. If your opinion is that blood doesn't meaning anything then Leia isn't a Skywalker either, nor is Vader as he gave up that name, and then the link between these shots isn't about being a Skywalker.

    No, Ben started his training in 15 ABY, around the age of 10. Only one character gets to basically become a Jedi in a couple of days.

    The Skywalker name, as we know it in the story, is about blood since the deal is that it's a family extremely strong in the Force. Most Force users don't inherit their powers like that so it's a special thing with the Skywalker family. There are likely others in the galaxy (not sure if the fact that Skywalker is a very common name is still canon) named Skywalker but what we're referring to isn't about the word but the lineage of the family we know.
     
  8. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    You are correct. Wookiepeedia sources to a "history book" from last year, I have not read.

    Also, funny enough, that book, "Skywalker: A Family at War" includes Rey.

    Skywalker: A Family at War, a New Star Wars Biography, Revealed | StarWars.com

    But the text will encompass the prequel era through the events in the sequel trilogy, tracing known biographical information on Shmi Skywalker, her son Anakin Skywalker, and ultimately his grandson, Ben Solo, and the scavenger Rey.
     
  9. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    Leia is a Skywalker by blood and because she acknowledges her biological father and brother. She's also an Organa, Amidala/Naberrie and a Solo. As she was raised as an Organa, acknowledges her birth mother, and married into the Solo family.

    Are you arguing that Padme isn't a Skywalker? That Leia isn't an Organa?

    A big point of Vader is that he tries to hide who he really is. Run from it. Stuff like this show he can't. Like Ben sliding around like his papa.

    How much training has Grogu done? Anakin in TPM? Savage?

    It's amazing how angry people get over the Force being the Force in Star Wars.

    No, in story, the Skywalker name is about family. And you are going to have a hard time in a world of adoption, marriage, etc. arguing that blood is the only thing that defines what family is.

    Bringing it back to the actual topic, Obi-Wan called Anakin his brother. He loved him, still clearly does, even as he drags him over fire. That's why it hurts so much. He thinks he killed his brother. Uncle Ben loves and cares for Leia and Luke, like he loved and cared for Padme and Anakin. They are family, no matter what their blood says.

    Rey inherits the lineage. It's the symbolism of the sword. Kylo is also an example of how one's DNA does not entitle them to any legacy.

    If your worry is strength in the Force, Rey has it, in spades.
     
    #359 DarthSkywalker, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  10. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    While crying about blood, people really should remember what we are watching. Like little Luke's two uncles fighting over what's best for him. And not a single blood relation among them:

     
  11. Mjolnir Reborn Blunt Instrument

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    The point is that if it's all in the name, which is really the only thing Rey has, then that has to go more ways than one. If she gets to be one just by assuming the name then Vader gets to relinquish being one. Just because it wasn't forever doesn't mean much since in theory we could have Rey accept who she is in the future and call herself Palpatine. No one is forced to wear a name forever if they don't want to.

    If you see any anger in that statement of mine you are likely just projecting your own emotions onto this discussion. Since your post above refers to those that disagree with you in this generally respectful conversation as "crying" I think you have something to think on.

    Grogu was a student at the Jedi Temple so likely quite a bit. Luke did say that their training felt more like Grogu just remembered what he was taught before. Anakin, who is the prophesied space-Jesus, only had better reactions due to his connection to the Force and he had to get training to use actual Force powers. I don't remember Savage well since I'm not a big CW fan.

    Rey differs in that as soon as she realizes that she's Force sensitive she can start using proper Force powers on the fly and she can immediately overpower a very powerful force user in a contest of the Force. Within a day or two she's lifting tons and tons of boulders with relative ease. That's not even in the same ballpark as the others and it makes space-Jesus seem mediocre.

    No, the story revolves around a family who literally has a magic lineage, and their effect on the galaxy. They are of course not the only important people but they are the center.

    Regarding Rey the issue is that her link to the Skywalkers is so flimsy. She barely meets Luke and is mostly rejected, and then she has some training with Leia which is mostly off-screen. It's so incredibly poorly set up that I get that some people don't care about that link in the slightest.

    You mention Obi-Wan and Anakin (and Padme), and we really got to see how they formed their bond and it meant something to the audience. That's why people care about that, despite that the writing of it wasn't always good, and that's why it matters.

    Yes, Rey is the most gifted Force user ever. Too bad that makes up most of her character together with being a dull copy of Luke.
     
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  12. Filmfan93 The Man in Black

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    Our fan base gets a bad wrap because people try to turn everything into an argument and get overly defensive whenever facts are being pointed out to them. I don't think I've ever seen you being chill on this website regarding SW through the years and just letting other people post their opinions without trying to be a smarta**. Which is really ironic, considering you are the one who's pointing out the current state of our fanbase.

    Rey is not a Skywalker. That's a fact. There is an entire scene where Kylo explains her origin. No matter how you twist her actions, she is not a Skywalker by bloodline. The rest of the characters holding these lightsabers are.

    TROS and Solo might be the only SW entries that I really don't like and I don't plan on stopping to point out exactly why.
     
    #362 Filmfan93, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  13. fan4stic Registered

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  14. antsman41 Unseen Arkham Prisoner

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    [​IMG]

    Closest we’ve ever got to a lightsaber ignition that looks like when we all played with those toy extending/collapsing lightsabers.
     
  15. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    I'm not sure where cave-dwelling Obi-Wan would be getting Holonet service on Tatooine. I think you can easily just look at it like, maybe he heard rumors about Vader being out there, he could've been in denial that there was any chance Anakin survived (he watched the man burn to a crisp) and we just see the moment that he has to confront the truth with no wiggle room to deny it.

    Also, it was Pablo Hidalgo who gave them the OK for that plot point. They had to run it by him. So if you're upset about how that impacts canon, don't blame "Disney". Pablo was Lucas' guy and has been the canon guru since pre-Disney. It was his call to say that it doesn't technically contradict canon.

    'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Writer Explains Why the Jedi Master Didn't Know Anakin Was Alive


    Honestly, not trying to troll, but I think there's a very simple roundabout way to link her to the Skywalker family.

    Palpatine strongly implies he created the Skywalker bloodline and influenced the midichlorians to create Anakin, the Chosen One. I would say most fans accept this as probable at this point, and it was straight up in one of Lucas' drafts of ROTS. Rey being Palpatine's bloodline means that there's an inextricable link there between the Emperor and the Skywalker line beginning with Anakin. I kind of view it all as one big, f'd up galactic family of space wizards. This could also potentially account for why Rey/Ben have a strong connection in The Force and why they make up dyad.

    Is any of that stuff that you can confirm on Wookiepedia? Nope. But that's the fun of it to me. The appeal of Star Wars used to be using your imagination and filling in gaps like that, at least that's what I always felt, and it's why I think trying to fill in every last canon gap in the Disney era can be a bit of a double-edged sword. It can get really cynical when you're consuming Star Wars with a canon checklist and a "THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!" filter. At a certain point you have to let go and try to have fun with it, or it's literally pointless IMO.

    The entirety of the premise of this show is kind of a stretch to me. I don't honestly think it necessarily makes the story "better" to have Vader and Obi-Wan face off between Episodes III and IV. It always felt neater to me that they meet once on Mustafar, and then again on the Death Star. Clean and simple. But, we have Hayden and Ewan both game to return to their roles and Disney needs streaming content. And it's just something that would be cool to see. So here we are.
     
    #365 BatLobster, Jun 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  16. Bobber Registered

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    Am I the only one who thought the lightsaber looked really off?
    Maybe it's just because the whole thing looked so cheap to me, but this is the worst and most fake a lightsaber has looked to me since Obi-Wans glowstick in New Hope.
     
  17. Mjolnir Reborn Blunt Instrument

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    Personally I always disliked the idea that Palpatine created Anakin. I feel that it just makes everything less magical (although I didn't really need the virgin birth either) and I prefer to see it as a case of honesty when he admits to not having learned his master's secrets. If I'm forced to stretch myself to Anakin being created I also prefer if Plagueis was the one to do it, as it also explains why Palpatine doesn't keep doing it after he was disappointed disappointed with how Vader turned out after he lost much of his body. I'm not trying to argue against your point, I'm just stating an opinion as conversation.

    As for the Dyad, it's actually one of the few things that the sequel trilogy brought up that I really like and I wish they had come up with that from the beginning and really built the story around that. It would have solved so many issues and both the story and the characters could get much more interesting from that alone. It also allows them to do some power creep without just going "this is Luke but better".

    I'm with you on that having some head canon can be good if it helps you enjoy something, as that's ultimately the point of entertainment. Personally I pretend that the sequels don't exist.
     
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  18. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    The most important canon is your own head-canon!

    In an age where they are releasing SO much new content, it's unreasonable for any of us to expect to like it all.
     
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  19. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Eh, something to remember is that the Emperor only abolished the Senate a full 20 years after taking over ( which is another 10 years in the future from this show ). Until he is willing to do that, the fact that Alderaan is a major core world with Bail Organa as its Senator puts a limit on what they can do directly. Note that even here, the kidnapping plan was not a sanctioned plan, but one cooked up by a minion numerous steps down the chain of command. Sure, various parties have run with it once it was ongoing, but that doesn't mean "If Senator Organa kicks up a ruckus we will hang Reva out to dry as scapegoat" wasn't in the playbook. Hell, its probably smart to assume that *someone* gets to be the scapegoat for the kidnapping even if Plan Kidnapping entirely succeeds ( it just might not be *Reva* whose headless corpse gets presented to the Organa's as the perpetrator ).

    The thing is, you can only maybe do that once, plausible deniability only goes so far. If six months later Leia gets kidnapped again by "totally unaffiliated with the Empire" agents for another shot at drawing out Kenobi? The Organas' have no prospect of their family being safe, and thus no disincentive not to, I don't know. . . massively publicize this amongst Senatorial circles, kicking off the very mass scale Senatorial defiance/rebellion that Palpatine is currently trying to avoid. Sure, the average core world Senator might not care about Imperial oppression of common folk or outlying worlds or whatnot, but they absolutely *would* care about Imperial oppression of members of the Senate.
     
  20. GREEN =w= DAY Registered

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    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Johnny Richards Registered

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    Agreed.
     
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  22. Sithborg Gundam Utena

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    All this outrage over Rey Skywalker is just HILARIOUS to me, given the talk that Bail and Leia had in episode 1.
     
  23. Johnny Richards Registered

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    Exactly. Obi-Wan was cut off from the Force and living on a planet where the Empire wasn't prominent yet. He thought Vader died on Mustafar.

    I've always believed that. This show didn't present that idea to me. If Obi-Wan kept using the Force (like some people are complaining he should have been) Palpatine would have sensed him and alerted Vader. Palpatine's "Force radar" has a reach/range like no other Dark Sider's. To protect BOTH children, Obi-Wan and Yoda abandoned The Force.

    That's the same reason Luke cut himself off from The Force prior to the Sequel Trilogy. He knew Snoke/Palpatine would instantly find him if he started using The Force.

    As soon as Obi-Wan started tapping into The Force in Episode 2, Vader sensed him. So yeah.

    Common sense honestly. Not convenient retconning by Lucasfilm.
     
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  24. J.Drangal Registered

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    Yeah, I also have trouble with this idea that Obi Wan didn't knew that Anakin had survived...

    As other users have pointed out, he knows that Darth Vader's name refers to his former apprentice. And without getting into the debate of whether Obi-Wan still uses the Force or not, that Darth Vader is "just" the number two in the Empire, an entity that rules most of the galaxy. He has to know that, even on a lost planet like Tatooine. I mean, we're not talking about some random farmer but Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi war hero who witnessed the fall of the Republic firsthand. That's impossible information for a character like that to ignore.

    The way I see it, up until that show, no one really questioned the fact that the old master, after leaving Anakin for dead, was hiding out in his cabin on Tatooine for decades, knowing well that his fallen padawan now ruled the Galaxy. So when you add the fact that we're now shown hat he's finally not as lonely as we originally thought, going to the city every day for work and everything, it's even more complicated, at least for me, to believe in this ignorance.

    McGregor sure played that scene well, but no matter how I spin it, that revelation just doesn't make sense to me, and I immediately read it as an inconsistency during the viewing. I have nothing against those who bring some explanations, but I don't see it so much as "blanks to fill" as "patches" on a flawed scenario.
     
  25. fan4stic Registered

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    Rey will never be a Skywalker[/QUOTE]By blood or adoption? Seemingly not. But in the way where, to me, Kylo sucks and Rey doesn't suck, in that way, to me, I'll take it.
    But, with all this, I think, logically, the Organas would be labeled as accomplices to a traitor and terrrorist and, at best, be under immense scrutiny, if not outright punishment.
    That's not really the same, because Leia was adopted and raised by the Organas. Rey was already apparently an adult when she met them and Luke, the only named Skywalker in these movies, treated her like a nuisance and she tried to beat him up to defend the honor of the person who'd kidnapped and hurt her, hurt her ally and murdered her mentor figure. The only OT members she was really shown to bond and connect with was Leia, who doesn't go by Skywalker but Organa, and Han, whose last name is Solo.
     
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