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Part VI (Spoiler Thread)

Discussion in 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' started by DarthSkywalker, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. Bobber Registered

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    Honestly, it seems to me like you enjoy reading lore and listening to what George Lucas says more than you actually do watching the films.

    And that's absolutely fine. You do you.
    But Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. It's very clearly stated in the films. You making hashtags and spouting nonsense isn't going to change that.

    Edit: Or at the very least, be ready to kill his father, if it comes to it. And now I've stretched myself to meet you halfway.
     
  2. Johnny Richards Registered

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    There's no point in discussing the issue with the poster in question. He literally believes that Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his father. it's both absurd and hilarious considering he touts himself as a Star Wars master yet has little to no idea of what the Jedi code entails.

    He also thinks George Lucas is wrong (LMAO)
     
  3. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    The goal is the destruction of the Sith. Obi-Wan doesn't need to mention killing. Luke does, and he doesn't tell him no. He reinforces the idea that that is what Luke must do. What you just wrote is not informed by Obi-Wan's words. He believes Anakin dead. Luke realizes that isn't the case, because his father reached out to him through the force, and he felt the good.

    One of the big errors is arguing he doesn't want Luke to kill him, is you have to ignore that Obi-Wan lied to Luke. He didn't want him to know Vader was his dad.
     
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  4. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    Yes. Like multiple posters here. That you think this is an odd theory in the Star Wars community, is strange to me, no doubt. I continually show the text to prove my point, but you ignore it, which leads me to believe you cannot refute my argument. It's the same with the constant insults.

    If Lucas was infallible why was the film ever named Revenge of the Jedi? Why did Luke make out with Leia? Why did he need to be reminded that Obi-Wan needed to claim Anakin's laser sword in RotS? Why did Boba's origin as a Mando change multiple times? Why has he constantly changed his films, including changing the context of Han and Greedo's meeting? More over, if you believe what Lucas says/writes, why are you ignoring how many good and proper Jedi go about killing folk in Star Wars, even if it's not the "Jedi Way"? And if Obi-Wan is one of those "bad Jedi", why do you continue to argue that he's telling Luke to do the "correct" thing, when he spent so long doing the incorrect thing, including after this show, where we know he kills Maul? He also helps guide Luke to blow up the Death Star, killing tens of thousands. An anti-Jedi move according to you.
     
  5. Johnny Richards Registered

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    I don't need to insult you. I'm just clarifying your inability to accept that you don't get the Jedi. You probably would have liked for Windu to execute Palpatine if you didn't already know Palpatine survived the PT. You probably enjoyed Anakin executing Dooku. You think the Jedi are badass warriors who take out the bad guys and win the day.

    They're not. That hubris demonstrated in the PT that you probably loved so much is exactly why they all had to die. The Force enacted correction to their misguided ways and gave the Sith dominion for 20 years until balance was finally achieved via The Chosen One.

    You have much to learn regarding Star Wars and you won't learn it here on this forum. You're demonstrating great resistance to your overall ideology on the Jedi being completely wrong and far from what the creator intended. A creator you don't even care to listen to.
     
  6. Marvolo Registered

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    Its obvious Obi wants Luke to kill Vader. Obi is human, and we dont need to pretend he is an infallible paragon of good above killing. He has human emotions and he has justifiable reasons to want Vader dead. He very clearly says the emperor has already won immediately after Luke says he can't kill his father.

    Unless Johnny isn't fluent in english he knows Obi believed killing Vader was the only way to victory based on the dialogue in that scene. Johnny is trolling.
     
  7. Bobber Registered

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    I love Star Wars. I really do. My favourite film franchise of all time, despite having huge issues with a lot of the films.

    But I absolutely loathe Star Wars "lore". This over explanation of every single little thing that exists in the Star Wars universe. Codes, and rules, and blah blah blah.

    And observing this person telling people that what happened in the film, didn't happen, and that they don't know what Star Wars is, because of some sort of lore jedi code that has never appeared in any of the films, just makes me hate it even more.
     
  8. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    Windu executing the Sith lord would have resulted in there being no Empire. Of course I would have wanted him to do it. Anakin "saving" Palpatine, results in Order 66 and the oppression and death of countless planets and people.

    I did enjoy Anakin executing Dooku. Watching Anakin fall to the dark side is a big part of the prequel era.

    I do think Jedi are badass warriors. They're wizard samurai after all.

    I like how you take any credit away from Sheev or Anakin there, and ignore why Anakin falls to the dark side. As Lucas had Anakin put it, "I'm not the Jedi I should be".

    If Lucas was infallible why was the film ever named Revenge of the Jedi? Why did Luke make out with Leia? Why did he need to be reminded that Obi-Wan needed to claim Anakin's laser sword in RotS? Why did Boba's origin as a Mando change multiple times? Why has he constantly changed his films, including changing the context of Han and Greedo's meeting? More over, if you believe what Lucas says/writes, why are you ignoring how many good and proper Jedi go about killing folk in Star Wars, even if it's not the "Jedi Way"? And if Obi-Wan is one of those "bad Jedi", why do you continue to argue that he's telling Luke to do the "correct" thing, when he spent so long doing the incorrect thing, including after this show, where we know he kills Maul? He also helps guide Luke to blow up the Death Star, killing tens of thousands. An anti-Jedi move according to you.
     
    #333 DarthSkywalker, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
    DKDetective and Snow Queen like this.
  9. Johnny Richards Registered

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    Not according to George Lucas.

    And Johnny's from Denver. Born and raised.
     
  10. Johnny Richards Registered

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    And NOW you're describing a Jedi advising another Jedi.

    Well done.
     
  11. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    Do you read what you write? You say Jedi don't kill. You do understand what that means, right? You said you're from Denver, implying that English is your first language.

    According to Yoda, there is only one Jedi in that scene.
     
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  12. Johnny Richards Registered

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    Yep. You don't get the Jedi at all. And I know if Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni or Jon Favreau or George Lucas said that to you YOU WOULD STILL argue that they're wrong and you're right.
     
  13. Bobber Registered

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    Thank you. Your great jedi knowledge showed me the way of saying what everyone's been saying all along, just worded slightly differently.
     
  14. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    You literally edited my post, to lie about what I wrote. Seriously?
     
  15. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Flick issued yall a warning earlier. Listen to it. Probation will be dealt out for ignoring it
     
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  16. DJ Kornphlake Registered (P)

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    So is this still a discussion about this episode, or Return of the Jedi, because I sure as hell can't tell anymore.
     
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  17. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    It's about how episode 6 informs the OT, including episode 6 (punny). Where Obi-Wan definitely wants Luke to kill Vader, but refuses to do so here. Refuses to even take him prisoner, instead leaving him to continue his reign of terror.
     
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  18. Bobber Registered

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    Might get probation for asking this, but I thought that warning was about gatekeeping, not about discussing...
     
  19. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Gatekeepers and civility. If ya'll cannot post without insulting or trolling one another, we'll then yall can post somewhere else
     
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  20. Sithborg Gundam Utena

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    Jedi Master Porter Engel. The Blade of Bardotta. Sure sounds like he had a past as a warrior.

    Yeah, the Jedi are not what the Jedi should be in the PT. That is sort of the point, imo. But that has more to do with how they have withdrawn and become an arm of the Republic government, rather than an Order that is out among the galaxy, helping those how need help, regardless of a government remit or not.

    The entire existence of the lightsaber and training to use indicates that they are trained as warriors.

    My view on why Obi-wan didn't kill Vader is that it relates to what he told Cube Jr. Obi-wan killing Vader would eliminate Vader, sure. A problem, yes. But there will be a replacement. Killing Vader at that moment doesn't fix anything. You need a new generation of heroes, of leaders, to fight back. Just killing Vader at that moment doesn't solve anything. At the time of ROTJ, the calculus has changed. Killing Vader then, and the Emperor then, will lead to change, and even greater victory.
     
  21. Marvolo Registered

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    Luke says something similar in TLJ deleted scene. Rey can run off and kill the bandits, but were does it end. The bandits could have friends and allies that will retaliate. Will Rey be there to protect the tribe when the retaliation comes? Will she always be there to protect the tribe? If not she could make things worse for the tribe in the long run by attacking the bandits.


    As for Obi, I dont really see a contradiction between Obi here and Obi in ROTJ. Obi is in pain seeing Anakin suffer, he knows Anakin would be better off dead, and the galaxy would be better off without Vader, but Obi just doesn't have the will to do it himself. In ROTS he wants Yoda to face Anakin, and in the OT he wants Luke to kill Vader. Even in ANH Obi let's Vader strike him instead of trying to kill Vader. Obi's greatest flaw in the saga is that he loves Anakin too much and that attachment makes him incapable of doing whats necessary. Obi's love endangers the whole galaxy and plays a part in millions, perhaps billions, of deaths

    Its a good example of why attachments are so dangerous for Jedi. Attachments can compromise them and inhibit their duty.

    But its also an example of how repressing attachments and not dealing with them openly and without support can create so much havoc. Had the Jedi dealt with attachments together and reinforced each other and discussed their attachments with each other Obi probably would have found the strength to end Anakin and Vader.
     
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  22. DarthSkywalker Regular As Clockwork (he/him)

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    He does that so Luke and his crew will escape. If not, they will try to save him, and that wouldn't work out.

    I think the biggest error here, was having Obi-Wan defeat Vader. It was unnecessary, and caused more problems then anything imo. A good example of why I didn't want a rematch.
     
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  23. Brother Jack Coffee and Contemplation

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    It was a good moment to have Kenobi see firsthand how Vader had “killed” Anakin in a matter of speaking, but it wasn’t enough to justify him letting Vader go. They could have made it work in a few ways (Qui-Gon intervening, a vision of Luke, etc.) but as it stands it’s Obi-Wan acting out of character only so that continuity doesn’t break.

    For the record this was a problem with the Mustafar duel as well, but there you can kind of get around it by saying Obi-Wan was too heartbroken to finish Anakin off.
     
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  24. Another_Fool Registered

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    Nailed it.

    I don't disagree that Vader probably should've won or Obi-Wan being put in a position of escaping so he can live to fight another day; both scenarios I would've been fine with. However, I don't see it causing problems that Obi-Wan won either. I thought it still tracked for Vader's obsession with him in the OT. Even after Vader killed Obi-Wan, he was still so salty that he couldn't resist bringing up Obi-Wan every chance he could whenever he encountered Luke. In some way, I could buy that's not the talk of a guy who felt he ever got the upper hand with Obi-Wan when it mattered. Not trying to change your mind btw, just stating my perspective.
     
  25. Wolvieboy17 Anthropomorphic Clock

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    I really liked that Obi-Wan didn't kill him, because to me, that only cemented the victory. It wasn't just about defeating Darth Vader, but proving that nothing had changed. He's still the student and he still hasn't learned those crucial lessons from all those years ago. For all his strength, he has the same weaknesses. Leaving him behind in a weakened state feels like a more powerful blow than outright killing him too. Like, what's stronger, to kill god or break his spirit? And by seeing Vader emotionally compromised in that final scene with the Emperor, I think it's proof that Kenobi's ploy worked.

    From there, I think the motive is intentionally ambiguous and that's what I like. For me, I don't think Obi-Wan could ever kill Annakin, even if he recognises it's needed. It's part of the reason I think he puts so much hope in Annakin's children. One way or another, he believes they'll restore the balance... which I think includes doing whatever is necessary. As Obi-Wan says "I'll do what I must".

    I also reckon, even if Vader says he killed Annakin, Kenobi knows it's not true... He just knows there's no point in trying to reason with him. But if Annakin was truly dead, he wouldn't be so hell bent on Kenobi. He wouldn't have abandoned chasing rebels just to get some revenge. There's personal satisfaction in that, and a desperate attempt to still prove something to his master. I think leaving him alive is Obi-Wan teaching him one final lesson. Which adds more weight to Vaders first line to him when they're united in New Hope.
     

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