Perversion of Liberty

[jaguarr]

THis statue isn't a stab at the country or anything of that nature. It's a differant situation.

I don't know that I agree with that. It really seems to be a slight on the concept of freedom as it stands today, saying that it is invalid as an ideal without Jesus, and frankly I find that a bit offensive against what this country was founded upon, personally.

jag

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'd say it's a differant situation as that would be nothing but a stab at the religion. THis statue isn't a stab at the country or anything of that nature. It's a differant situation.

Wrong, lol. It most certainly is a stab at all Americans who don't share a Christian world-view.
They would probably call it a...stab of love, but yeah, it's a stab.

 

[Emrys]

Your stupidy never ceases to amaze me. You don't even have an understanding of sin and hell and you go making dumb statements like that.

Sorry but I'd rather go to hell, after all there ain't any christians there with whom I would have to share eternity. God the idea of having to listen to the likes of Buchannan and Robertson for all eternity is enough to make my stomach turn. I'd rather go to the place where Leonardo DaVinci, Gandhi, The Dalai Lama, Oscar Wilde and many other crown jewels of humanity rest or will rest. But most important of all I want to go to the place where my best friends and loved ones are going and believe me according to christianity it ain't gonna be heaven.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I don't know that I agree with that. It really seems to be a slight on the concept of freedom as it stands today, saying that it is invalid as an ideal without Jesus, and frankly I find that a bit offensive against what this country was founded upon, personally.

jag

I can agree to a point... however what I ment was that when they made this statue... they weren't in the mindset of 'yeah, screw you america' and then erected the statue to get a rise out of them. If someone made a statue with the soul purpose of being anti christian, then I think the christians are justified at being upset.

 

[jaguarr]

What in the world are you talking about a quest for power? You think we're trying to get a preacher to become ruler of the world or something? Christians do what they do because they want people to believe as they do, not for whatever it gets them here, but because they want that person to be in heaven with them. There's been people who do as you say, but that's definately not the majority of christians in the slightest.... rather a signifigantly small number, most of which simply use the christian name for an excuse.

So you're saying that working to get everyone in the world to have the same beliefs as yourself isn't a type of power, regardless of the motive? There's more to power than just figureheads such as rulers, kings and Presidents.

jag

 

[jaguarr]

I can agree to a point... however what I ment was that when they made this statue... they weren't in the mindset of 'yeah, screw you america' and then erected the statue to get a rise out of them. If someone made a statue with the soul purpose of being anti christian, then I think the christians are justified at being upset.

I'm not talking about the whole statue of jesus in bondage, thing. I'm talking about the statue this group erected, and it was most CERTAINLY done to get a rise out of people. If not, why do it at all?

jag

 

[Emrys]

I don't think that works so well because in a parade you have to be given a permit by the city government, public streets are closed down, etc.
Their stupid statue is not a city-sanctioned obstruction of traffic. Nor does it make any loud noises, I hope.

Maybe it belches and farts whenever a car drives by, would at least fit the level of intelligence of the whole issue.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Sorry but I'd rather go to hell, after all there ain't any christians there with whom I would have to share eternity. God the idea of having to listen to the likes of Buchannan and Robertson for all eternity is enough to make my stomach turn. I'd rather go to the place where Leonardo DaVinci, Gandhi, The Dalai Lama, Oscar Wilde and many other crown jewels of humanity rest or will rest. But most important of all I want to go to the place where my best friends and loved ones are going and believe me according to christianity it ain't gonna be heaven.

If you go to hell you won't be with your best friends and family either, nor with Davinci and all the others. There's no rest either. You won't be happy in any situation if you chose to go to hell. But nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and choice.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I can agree to a point... however what I ment was that when they made this statue... they weren't in the mindset of 'yeah, screw you america' and then erected the statue to get a rise out of them. If someone made a statue with the soul purpose of being anti christian, then I think the christians are justified at being upset.

Yes they were. They were saying "Screw you Godless, sinful America, because America was founded on Christianity and Christian liberty is superior to your secular liberty."
They totally were saying screw you.

 

[Emrys]

If you go to hell you won't be with your best friends and family either, nor with Davinci and all the others. There's no rest either. You won't be happy in any situation if you chose to go to hell. But nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and choice.

Actually I don't care as long as there are no christians I'm content and if all the people I mentioned where abel to go there with their head held high I consider it an honor to follow in their foot steps.

 

[JewishHobbit]

So you're saying that working to get everyone in the world to have the same beliefs as yourself isn't a type of power, regardless of the motive? There's more to power than just figureheads such as rulers, kings and Presidents.

jag

I'm really not seeing it. I'm a christian and I don't want a thing to do with power. We want people to be with us in heaven and to know God in the way that we do, and that's it. If power comes with it, then fine, but that's not at all what we're seeking. If I'm understanding your earlier posts, what you're saying is that christians have some type of evil lust for power that we're trying to attain, which isn't the case in the slightest.

I'm not talking about the whole statue of jesus in bondage, thing. I'm talking about the statue this group erected, and it was most CERTAINLY done to get a rise out of people. If not, why do it at all?

jag

Not everything is done to get a rise out of people. I can't speak for them as I'm not from that church, but a lot of times these things are made to encourage people and to simple honor God with them, nothing more to it.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

If you go to hell you won't be with your best friends and family either, nor with Davinci and all the others. There's no rest either. You won't be happy in any situation if you chose to go to hell. But nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and choice.

What kind of a sadistic ass**** would send him to such a horrible place when he obviously has no idea what he's really choosing.

The only way you could say that God offers us the "choice" not to go to Hell would be if God, having set up all of the rules and circumstances, would allow us to make an INFORMED choice.

He would have to let us all go to Heaven for a day, then let us all go to Hell for a day, and T.H.E.N. ask us to choose.

'Cause if he's making us choose, but not giving us all the facts, he's a con-man trickster at best.

 

[Emrys]

Yes they were. They were saying "Screw you Godless, sinful America, because America was founded on Christianity and Christian liberty is superior to your secular liberty."
They totally were saying screw you.

Yepp! and the most funny thing is they actually insulted the founding fathers who where all staunch secularists. It's hillarious, christians are the most anti-american people out there theses days.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Actually I don't care as long as there are no christians I'm content and if all the people I mentioned where abel to go there with their head held high I consider it an honor to follow in their foot steps.

You won't be content, nor are they... but you'll never understand that. You make me sad. Actually, here's something for thought... if there is a god and a heaven and a hell where you can choose. The bible says that eveyrone will acknowledge God as God before being cast into the lake of fire. So before you go to 'hell' (which isn't actually where people go in the end), before you go you'll actually bow before God and worship him, and then go to hell. So you won't exactly have your head held high in the process.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

what you're saying is that christians have some type of evil lust for power that we're trying to attain, which isn't the case in the slightest.

on PBS I was just watching a documentary about a southern sherrif who was trying to keep them from opening a strip joint in his town.
That is an evil lust for power.
No one's forcing him to go into the wicked strip joint.
No one's holding a gun to the head of the dancers and forcing them to wiggle their asses to "She's Got Legs" by ZZ Top.
No one would BE inside the strip joint if they didn't have a desire to be there anyway.
But he wants it shut down.
Simply living his life by his own rules and beliefs in a "live-and-let-live" way is not enough for him.
He wants to force everyone else to live by his rules regarding sexual morality.

Sorry, chief, that's an "evil lust for power".

 

[jaguarr]

I'm really not seeing it. I'm a christian and I don't want a thing to do with power. We want people to be with us in heaven and to know God in the way that we do, and that's it. If power comes with it, then fine, but that's not at all what we're seeking. If I'm understanding your earlier posts, what you're saying is that christians have some type of evil lust for power that we're trying to attain, which isn't the case in the slightest.

What I am saying is that there are people associated with organized religion who seek power. See the Catholic Church and Evangelical Baptists for reference. Not ALL Christians have this unhealthy lust for power, and that is not what I have been saying. However, imposing belief systems on people in any fashion with the intent of conversion does represent a desire for a certain type of power, regardless of the underlying intent behind it. It's not necessarily evil (though that's an incredibly subjective word that everyone is going to interpret differently), but it is a desire for power.

Not everything is done to get a rise out of people. I can't speak for them as I'm not from that church, but a lot of times these things are made to encourage people and to simple honor God with them, nothing more to it.

How does dressing the Statute of Liberty up with a cross and saying the things that they did about it honor God? It doesn't. It's a thumb across the nose at secular America and it was done to get a rise out of people, plain and simple. No, not everything is done to get a rise out of people, but this most certainly was.

jag

 

[Emrys]

You won't be content, nor are they... but you'll never understand that. You make me sad. Actually, here's something for thought... if there is a god and a heaven and a hell where you can choose. The bible says that eveyrone will acknowledge God as God before being cast into the lake of fire. So before you go to 'hell' (which isn't actually where people go in the end), before you go you'll actually bow before God and worship him, and then go to hell. So you won't exactly have your head held high in the process.

All I'll ever do is spit in his face he'll get nothing else from me, Period.

 

[JewishHobbit]

What kind of a sadistic ass**** would send him to such a horrible place when he obviously has no idea what he's really choosing.

The only way you could say that God offers us the "choice" not to go to Hell would be if God, having set up all of the rules and circumstances, would allow us to make an INFORMED choice.

He would have to let us all go to Heaven for a day, then let us all go to Hell for a day, and T.H.E.N. ask us to choose.

'Cause if he's making us choose, but not giving us all the facts, he's a con-man trickster at best.

Thing is... he's given the facts. It's in the bible. People like me tell you about it... and we'll continue to tell you and emrys and others about it until the day you die. You are well informed and you cannot use ignorance as an excuse. You can go and read up on the end times in detail if you choose. I can tell you a bit of what Heaven will be like, and I can tell you a bit of what Hell will be like... and if you decide to not go the heaven route... then you've made an informed choice. Just because you choose to be ignorant and not believe something that you don't want to be true... doesn't mean you get a pass. It means you've made a bad choice and that you must live with the circumstances. And don't say that God's a sadistic God for sending you there, he's trying to get you out of there now, in the past, and in the future. He tries every time I talk to you and every time someone else talks to you about it. He's trying... it's your fault that you choose where to go. It's your choice.

 

[maxwell's demon]

guys, this statue rules. the tackier a religious expression gets, the more likely the common man will eventually get wise to the tackiness and regain some common sense.

I want them to do a 100ft tall Uncle Sam holding the Ten Commandments in his giant hand next. it'll be awesome. and maybe some giant KFC chicken wings in his other hand.

 

[JewishHobbit]

on PBS I was just watching a documentary about a southern sherrif who was trying to keep them from opening a strip joint in his town.
That is an evil lust for power.
No one's forcing him to go into the wicked strip joint.
No one's holding a gun to the head of the dancers and forcing them to wiggle their asses to "She's Got Legs" by ZZ Top.
No one would BE inside the strip joint if they didn't have a desire to be there anyway.
But he wants it shut down.
Simply living his life by his own rules and beliefs in a "live-and-let-live" way is not enough for him.
He wants to force everyone else to live by his rules regarding sexual morality.

Sorry, chief, that's an "evil lust for power".

No, it's a desire for decency. Even non christians can fight for that. It's a desire to have a home without that crap and with no worries of your daughters growing up to dance in those things, etc.

 

[JewishHobbit]

All I'll ever do is spit in his face he'll get nothing else from me, Period.

You won't have a choice. If Satan has to bow, what chance to you have?

 

[Sarge 2.0]

Can we go back to discussing how silly the statue looks? It's more interesting than the 1208947385702389750291824390854875320928th religious debate on this board.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

No, it's a desire for decency. Even non christians can fight for that. It's a desire to have a home without that crap and with no worries of your daughters growing up to dance in those things, etc.

If you raised your daughter properly, then you wouldn't have to worry about her becoming a stripper, regardless of how many strip joints she grew up around.

 

[jaguarr]

guys, this statue rules. the tackier a religious expression gets, the more likely the common man will eventually get wise to the tackiness and regain some common sense.

I want them to do a 100ft tall Uncle Sam holding the Ten Commandments in his giant hand next. it'll be awesome. and maybe some giant KFC chicken wings in his other hand.

Oooh! Oooh! I want to see Mickey Mouse wrapped in a shroud with nail wounds on his hands and feet and a crown of thorns on his head!

jag

 

[maxwell's demon]

Can we go back to discussing how silly the statue looks? It's more interesting than the 1208947385702389750291824390854875320928th religious debate on this board.

you can count real high. teach me?


Ps- someone should go climb the statue and replace the cross with a giant bong.