Comics Peter Parker, speed dater

[imdaly]

I'm half tempted to go through the last 20 years of Spidey comics to point out all the ones that could have been told with an unmarried Peter Parker...

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm half tempted to go through the last 20 years of Spidey comics to point out all the ones that could have been told with an unmarried Peter Parker...

HA!!!!

I bet over 90% of them could have been told with a "single" Spider-Man... lol

t: t: t:

 

[Meehaul]

Marvel did two not-very-bright things: 1) marry off Peter Parker and 2) make him a teacher. They compounded those moronic decisions with an (arguably) stupider idea: have Pete and MJ work a deal with Mephisto to save Aunt May and upset many continuity apple carts. As someone, somewhere pointed out, fans age, artists, writers, and other creators age, so naturally a part of us wants the characters we love and identify with to age as well. And while it might be interesting to read a geriatric Batman (see Frank Miller) or Peter Parker (see Dark Reign), that doesn't make economic sense to the companies that own the characters. DC, with characters even olders than Marvel's, tried to deal with all the problems of continuity, etc, by creating multiple worlds and Elseworlds tales, and whatever. The only thing that will end the life of Peter Parker is if (and when) Marvel loses ownership of the character and he falls into the public domain (see the status of Popeye in Europe) or the character's value becomes totally worthless (which seems doubtful, see, eg, the Blue Beetle, the Question, and a whole host of Golden Age heroes who still appear to have value). My only quibble with what Marvel has done is that it was not in Pete's general character to do what he did. The mistake was in the execution, in my view, not the result. Heck, MJ and Aunt May could have done the deal, but not Pete. Despite my anger at how Marvel did what they did, I am satisfied with the result (except I always liked the organic web shooters--I thought marvel should have distinguished "real world" from Ultimate Spidey by giving USM the organics). Now, if they could fix that whole "Gwen had twins thing," which I thought was sacriledge, I'd be fine....

 

[Donald Thomas]

I had a subscription years ago to Spider-Girl, and was worried about that exact thing, but they came in perfect condition. Only thing was that they accidently skipped an issue, so i called them up and they sent it right out, no questions asked. I got it the next day. For all thier faults, Marvel is really reliable with that stuff.

Aloha,
First, congrats on your baby-are you an X-Men fan(Jubilee?)
Yes Marvel will replace any comic that you report was damaged. If you talk to your postal delivery person NICELY-they'll also make sure that they don't bend your comic when they put it in your box. Marvel makes more money from their subscriptions than they do from third parties, which is why they can sell them so cheaply. Now is the time to get a subscription. Rates are very low-$1.66 to 1.99 for most issues. No one shots,variants or mini's are included in the subscriptions.
Spidey rules with cost saving measures

 

[imdaly]

Marvel did two not-very-bright things: 1) marry off Peter Parker and 2) make him a teacher. They compounded those moronic decisions with an (arguably) stupider idea: have Pete and MJ work a deal with Mephisto to save Aunt May and upset many continuity apple carts. As someone, somewhere pointed out, fans age, artists, writers, and other creators age, so naturally a part of us wants the characters we love and identify with to age as well. And while it might be interesting to read a geriatric Batman (see Frank Miller) or Peter Parker (see Dark Reign), that doesn't make economic sense to the companies that own the characters. DC, with characters even olders than Marvel's, tried to deal with all the problems of continuity, etc, by creating multiple worlds and Elseworlds tales, and whatever. The only thing that will end the life of Peter Parker is if (and when) Marvel loses ownership of the character and he falls into the public domain (see the status of Popeye in Europe) or the character's value becomes totally worthless (which seems doubtful, see, eg, the Blue Beetle, the Question, and a whole host of Golden Age heroes who still appear to have value). My only quibble with what Marvel has done is that it was not in Pete's general character to do what he did. The mistake was in the execution, in my view, not the result. Heck, MJ and Aunt May could have done the deal, but not Pete. Despite my anger at how Marvel did what they did, I am satisfied with the result (except I always liked the organic web shooters--I thought marvel should have distinguished "real world" from Ultimate Spidey by giving USM the organics). Now, if they could fix that whole "Gwen had twins thing," which I thought was sacriledge, I'd be fine....

ITA with the vast majority of all of this post.

As I've said all along about BND: I may hate the road they took, but I love the destination.

 

[Dragon]

Given the angst from fans I've read on these boards as well as those elsewhere, this issue is sure to drive nuts people who wanted Pete and MJ back together. It's interesting...while I abhorred the whole "Mephisto undoes the marriage" thing, I never wanted Pete married in the first place. I remember thinking "the only girl Pete ever really loved was Gwen, how can he possibly marry this shallow, model? (whih is one of the reasons I think USM, despite generally good writing and interesting art is lame--Pete dates hotties and everyone knows he's Spider-Man--USM just never got the character right, imho)." I thought the marriage to MJ was a horrible mistake, the Other was awful, the Goblin twins a miscarriage of justice, and the spider-buggy an abomination. I hope, truly hope, that with this re-boot, Marvel goes back to what made the character iconic. While there have been ups and downs this past year (and I still think it was MJ that made the deal, not Pete, and I refuse to believe otherwise ) I do think the series is headed in a right direction (finally).

It will be interesting to see how this issue fares. Certainly, President O will help move product, I just hope people will give Pete another chance.

You echo much of my feelings. The problem I have with Marvel's new direction is that there's no point to it. In the early days, Peter dated with a purpose. He as a person was essentially looking to find a lasting relationship. That's who he is.
The new direction merely looks for fodder to churn out a number of stories. If they have him jump from one relationship to another, they have the constant intrigue of "the chase". They don't have to work to develop a relationship, which is the major failure of Peter and MJ's marriage. It was something that was generated as a gimmick, not something that was naturally developed. Then after it happened, they didn't develop as a couple. They were simply used to churn out soapy-drama. When the various writers ran out of ideas to create sparks, they simply decided to let it collapse. They're simply approaching the story of Peter's life from the wrong perspective.

 

[stillanerd]

You echo much of my feelings. The problem I have with Marvel's new direction is that there's no point to it. In the early days, Peter dated with a purpose. He as a person was essentially looking to find a lasting relationship. That's who he is.
The new direction merely looks for fodder to churn out a number of stories. If they have him jump from one relationship to another, they have the constant intrigue of "the chase". They don't have to work to develop a relationship, which is the major failure of Peter and MJ's marriage. It was something that was generated as a gimmick, not something that was naturally developed. Then after it happened, they didn't develop as a couple. They were simply used to churn out soapy-drama. When the various writers ran out of ideas to create sparks, they simply decided to let it collapse. They're simply approaching the story of Peter's life from the wrong perspective.

While I don't agree that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane was a mistake, I do agree with everything you said here, Dragon. Prior to his marriage, when it came to Peter's search for a lasting relationship, the question readers wondered was "will Peter ever find the right girl?" Well, we already know the answer. It's Mary Jane.

Yes, Roger Stern can say that MJ was the wrong girl, or that some would argue Gwen was the love of Peter's life and that the tragedy was that she was violently taken away from him, but the fact is that after 20 years of marriage in the comics, being a continual supporting character since 1965 from her first appearance (albeit obscured) in ASM #25 and her classic reveal in ASM #42, not to mention her being depicted as a main love interest in a variety of other media--including a series of commerically successful movies--the idea that MJ is the love of Peter's life has been firmly cemented into popular culture, not just the comics. The question, as a result of One More Day, is not "who will be the right girl for Peter?" but rather "when will Peter and MJ get back together?"

As you said, what the reason of developing any new relationship if Peter is constantly going to be engaged in the "chase?" Especially since Joe Quesada has made it clear that Peter's relationship will not be long lasting, never progress past the dating stage, and that, even now, Mary Jane is actively promoted as the love of Peter's life.

 

[Meehaul]

Yep...I remember hoping, before the first Spider-Man film came out, that they would use Gwen, instead of MJ as the heroine/love interest and do the whole "Death of Gwen" storyline. It's true that Marvel has put itself into a bind in that MJ has been foisted upon us as Pete's true love (even though I never really thought she was). It's tough to walk away from that sentiment. Perhaps the only thing that will fix it is time. And I mean time like Batman is turning 70 this year kinda time. The marriage is an easy thing to undo, the character re-direction is a lot tougher. Although, in one respect, Marvel can always say "well, MJ is Pete's true love, that's why none of his other relationships work out." I thought that's what would happen post-Gwen, as a means of keeping Pete forever young, but Marvel got gimicky and wanted the "event". Kind of like the Obama story. Sheesh, I think I could have come up with a more interesting Obama/Spidey story than the pretty stupid one they came up with.

This is all a bit like character "death." Does anyone believe Bruce Wayne is not ever coming back? Does anyone think Steve Rogers is gone for good? Even a lower impact character (like the Green Lantern or Barry Allen/Flash) is tough to kill off. DC managed it with both GL and the Flash, but couldn't stave off returning them to their universe forever. And Barry Allen was only the SECOND flash--in a world with mutiple "Flashes." It seems that the Silver Agers have become the truely iconic properties (of course, Bats and Supes both survived intact and without replacement in the Silver Age). Without a legitimate threat of death, it makes the stakes considrably less significant. Gwen's death had such an impact because she was among the first major "deaths" in comics. The stakes were high. The medium was still young, so people weren't as jaded as we are, and there existed the possibility, however remote, that maybe Pete COULD die, just like Gwen did. So suddenly, the stakes become greater. We care more.

But the serial nature of comics makes them more like soap operas than novels. Economic realities make it possible to put a dent in a second-tier character (how many guys have been Giant-Man/Goliath?) but with the TRUE icons, those same economic realities make it impossible to kill the characters. Someday, and not even that far off in the future, Batman and Superman will suffer the same fate as Popeye (at least in Europe, where IP & trademark protections endure for less time) and it will be interesting to see how DC reacts. I'm sure they have plans in place. Marvel will face the same issues. I always thought that the "Ultimates" were being groomed to be the new, main continuity characters, but I guess that's not Marvel's intention.

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

You got me thinking -
Golden Age of Comics
Silver Age of Comics

90's were Gimmick Age
Now we're in Event Age

What's next Re-hash Age - Starts with Spidey, looks like....

 

[Captivated]

While I don't agree that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane was a mistake, I do agree with everything you said here, Dragon. Prior to his marriage, when it came to Peter's search for a lasting relationship, the question readers wondered was "will Peter ever find the right girl?" Well, we already know the answer. It's Mary Jane.

Yes, Roger Stern can say that MJ was the wrong girl, or that some would argue Gwen was the love of Peter's life and that the tragedy was that she was violently taken away from him, but the fact is that after 20 years of marriage in the comics, being a continual supporting character since 1965 from her first appearance (albeit obscured) in ASM #25 and her classic reveal in ASM #42, not to mention her being depicted as a main love interest in a variety of other media--including a series of commerically successful movies--the idea that MJ is the love of Peter's life has been firmly cemented into popular culture, not just the comics. The question, as a result of One More Day, is not "who will be the right girl for Peter?" but rather "when will Peter and MJ get back together?"

As you said, what the reason of developing any new relationship if Peter is constantly going to be engaged in the "chase?" Especially since Joe Quesada has made it clear that Peter's relationship will not be long lasting, never progress past the dating stage, and that, even now, Mary Jane is actively promoted as the love of Peter's life.

Sigh... I agree.

I miss Spidey.

But every time I come here, it just cements the conviction that the character in his current state is dead to me.

Until Quesada's MORONIC move is re-conned, I will NOT be making mine Marvel....

 

[imdaly]

Yep...I remember hoping, before the first Spider-Man film came out, that they would use Gwen, instead of MJ as the heroine/love interest and do the whole "Death of Gwen" storyline. It's true that Marvel has put itself into a bind in that MJ has been foisted upon us as Pete's true love (even though I never really thought she was). It's tough to walk away from that sentiment. Perhaps the only thing that will fix it is time. And I mean time like Batman is turning 70 this year kinda time. The marriage is an easy thing to undo, the character re-direction is a lot tougher. Although, in one respect, Marvel can always say "well, MJ is Pete's true love, that's why none of his other relationships work out." I thought that's what would happen post-Gwen, as a means of keeping Pete forever young, but Marvel got gimicky and wanted the "event". Kind of like the Obama story. Sheesh, I think I could have come up with a more interesting Obama/Spidey story than the pretty stupid one they came up with.

MJ herself said, in the last few moments before their deal with Mephisto went into effect, "We'll find each other again, and we'll be together again, I know we will. And I'm always right about these things, right?"

I, too, believe that MJ and Peter will find each other again. They'll be back together one day. But that will be a long ways away. THIS will be MJ and Peter's "GOTCHA!" to Mephisto. Not that they catch on to the deal down the road and everything is set back into place...no...but that their LOVE that they have for each other (which was NOT taken away) will one day bring them together again. Wouldn't that hold so much more meaning? Wouldn't that really show the true power of their love? Even the devil himself can't keep them apart forever. They get through this DESPITE what Mephisto has done, and DESPITE being unaware of the deal the whole time!

It actually reminds me a lot of the ending to a great GREAT movie "What Dreams May Come". The main character dies in the beginning and spends the whole time fighting to be back with his wife again...his soul mate. Even when she eventually commits suicide and gets sent to Hell, he does the impossible and finds her. They can finally be together in Heaven for the rest of eternity, and what do they do?

They decide to be reincarnated. To start over.

Now why would they do this? They are finally together...and in Heaven! They made it! Why throw that all away and start over???



They start over so they can find each other all over again.



This is the way I see OMD/BND. It's not the end of Peter and MJ. They are soulmates and everybody knows it. Heck, that's the very reason Mephisto chose THEIR marraige above everyone elses'. Simply removing the fact that they ever got married doesn't change the fact that they're soulmates. It just means they haven't married.


And that's the odd beauty of what's happened. Mephisto thinks he's dooming these souls to eternal lonliness or something, when really he's just giving them the chance to really show him and everyone else how strong their love is...because they will be together again one fine day.



OMD/BND is not the end of Peter/MJ...it's merely a new beginning. It's a new opportunity to find each other again, to fall in love with each other again, and to rebuild their lives together again.

 

[Dragon]

While I don't agree that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane was a mistake, I do agree with everything you said here, Dragon. Prior to his marriage, when it came to Peter's search for a lasting relationship, the question readers wondered was "will Peter ever find the right girl?" Well, we already know the answer. It's Mary Jane.

Yes, Roger Stern can say that MJ was the wrong girl, or that some would argue Gwen was the love of Peter's life and that the tragedy was that she was violently taken away from him, but the fact is that after 20 years of marriage in the comics, being a continual supporting character since 1965 from her first appearance (albeit obscured) in ASM #25 and her classic reveal in ASM #42, not to mention her being depicted as a main love interest in a variety of other media--including a series of commerically successful movies--the idea that MJ is the love of Peter's life has been firmly cemented into popular culture, not just the comics. The question, as a result of One More Day, is not "who will be the right girl for Peter?" but rather "when will Peter and MJ get back together?"

As you said, what the reason of developing any new relationship if Peter is constantly going to be engaged in the "chase?" Especially since Joe Quesada has made it clear that Peter's relationship will not be long lasting, never progress past the dating stage, and that, even now, Mary Jane is actively promoted as the love of Peter's life.

Well, the irony is that anything can grow stale. The romantic chase too can become tiresome.

As for MJ, my first question is, would you even want her back under the current creative team(s)? I mean, for a hot minute I hoped BND would see Gwen's return. But after I saw how the characters (Harry in particular) were being written, I was glad they decided not to bring Gwen back. I'm sure I'd end up hating her after a few months. What did you think of MJ's handling during her guest appearance last year?

But further, you mention the very problem that I've always had with MJ being "The One". It was more media-driven hype than actual character development. Going back to Roger Stern, at the point when he was against MJ and Peter being together, he was right. Look at their relationship up to the point of Stern's run. After their coming together at the end of Clone Saga 1, there essentially was no relationship. When in recent years I re-read the stories during Len Wein and Marv Wolfman's runs, I was surprised to see that Peter and MJ actually spent little time together. They'd bump into each other on the street and react more as they did when they were just friends and very unlike lovers. They really didn't seem to be in love. And Peter's decision to propose was ridiculous. It was mostly out of seeing Harry and Liz, Flash and his girl (The Vietnamese chick who's name I forget) and wanting something similar. Not that he and MJ were anywhere near that point. And MJ's telling Pete she wanted to date other guys makes her the wrong candidate for The One. Of course, the move seemed more calculated to break them up, the same cycle we're in at this point. So one has to wonder why TPTB constantly feel the need to end the relationship as often as they bring them together.

If they decide to bring them together again, I really- REALLY hope they do it right. Make MJ more than window-dressing, trite love-interest and potential hostage. For example, even after three films I'm not sure why MJ is "the woman he loved before he even liked girls". I've said it before and I'll repeat it. The woman for Peter has to bring something to the table on both levels: to the life of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. A model/actress brings something to the life of Peter, but nothing to Spidey. Gwen did, which is why I've always maintained she was The One. On paper, not simply in the media-machine.

It's certainly possible for MJ to be developed as such. But as they haven't accomplished this in more than twenty years, I think it's unlikely they'll do now. Marvel's writers need to learn to write first.

 

[Dragon]

MJ herself said, in the last few moments before their deal with Mephisto went into effect, "We'll find each other again, and we'll be together again, I know we will. And I'm always right about these things, right?"

I, too, believe that MJ and Peter will find each other again. They'll be back together one day. But that will be a long ways away. THIS will be MJ and Peter's "GOTCHA!" to Mephisto. Not that they catch on to the deal down the road and everything is set back into place...no...but that their LOVE that they have for each other (which was NOT taken away) will one day bring them together again. Wouldn't that hold so much more meaning? Wouldn't that really show the true power of their love? Even the devil himself can't keep them apart forever. They get through this DESPITE what Mephisto has done, and DESPITE being unaware of the deal the whole time!

It actually reminds me a lot of the ending to a great GREAT movie "What Dreams May Come". The main character dies in the beginning and spends the whole time fighting to be back with his wife again...his soul mate. Even when she eventually commits suicide and gets sent to Hell, he does the impossible and finds her. They can finally be together in Heaven for the rest of eternity, and what do they do?

They decide to be reincarnated. To start over.

Now why would they do this? They are finally together...and in Heaven! They made it! Why throw that all away and start over???



They start over so they can find each other all over again.



This is the way I see OMD/BND. It's not the end of Peter and MJ. They are soulmates and everybody knows it. Heck, that's the very reason Mephisto chose THEIR marraige above everyone elses'. Simply removing the fact that they ever got married doesn't change the fact that they're soulmates. It just means they haven't married.


And that's the odd beauty of what's happened. Mephisto thinks he's dooming these souls to eternal lonliness or something, when really he's just giving them the chance to really show him and everyone else how strong their love is...because they will be together again one fine day.



OMD/BND is not the end of Peter/MJ...it's merely a new beginning. It's a new opportunity to find each other again, to fall in love with each other again, and to rebuild their lives together again.

Well, that was quite nice and very poetic.. But not likey to happen.
Marvel's staff can barely keep track of what they wrote in a single storyline, much less one from a year ago. That's why continuity is nothing more than a theory at this point.

But moreover, we know that real reason for the marriage ending was because most of Marvel's creative staff didn't want to write a married Spidey or for that matter a Spidey in a single, committed relationship. Now as I've said, this is a mistake. Peter's parents died together. May and Ben lived happily 'til death did them part. It's in Peter's DNA to be married.

But until there's a shift in the creative status-quo at Marvel, it's doubtful MJ will be back- thus the reason for the ending image of MJ's last appearance with the "Departure" sign dangling over her head.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well, that was quite nice and very poetic..

no, it really wasn't, crappy writing abounded.

 

[stillanerd]

Well, the irony is that anything can grow stale. The romantic chase too can become tiresome.

As for MJ, my first question is, would you even want her back under the current creative team(s)? I mean, for a hot minute I hoped BND would see Gwen's return. But after I saw how the characters (Harry in particular) were being written, I was glad they decided not to bring Gwen back. I'm sure I'd end up hating her after a few months. What did you think of MJ's handling during her guest appearance last year?

Oh, I will freely admit that when she appeared in the Paper Doll story, I just got a gut feeling over just how WRONG it all was. The way the story was depicted, it was heavily implied that she still remembered her marriage with Peter. Or, if she didn't, then at the very least she knew Peter and Spider-Man were one and the same and that she was still in love with him. So then why in the world is she sleeping with some *****e bag actor and avoiding her friends? As one reviewer said of the issue, while Peter may have been out of character with his role as a papparazzi, what was going on with MJ was outright character assassination.

And yes, Harry hasn't fared better as he's basically become Michael Rossenbaum's version of Lex Luthor from Smallville. And for all intends and purposes, Gwen Stacy is back in the form of Carlie Cooper, the foresnic pathologist chick with glasses (who I happen to think is Menace, thus having a Gwen stand-in ironically be a Goblin stand-in).

But further, you mention the very problem that I've always had with MJ being "The One". It was more media-driven hype than actual character development. Going back to Roger Stern, at the point when he was against MJ and Peter being together, he was right. Look at their relationship up to the point of Stern's run. After their coming together at the end of Clone Saga 1, there essentially was no relationship. When in recent years I re-read the stories during Len Wein and Marv Wolfman's runs, I was surprised to see that Peter and MJ actually spent little time together. They'd bump into each other on the street and react more as they did when they were just friends and very unlike lovers. They really didn't seem to be in love. And Peter's decision to propose was ridiculous. It was mostly out of seeing Harry and Liz, Flash and his girl (The Vietnamese chick who's name I forget) and wanting something similar. Not that he and MJ were anywhere near that point. And MJ's telling Pete she wanted to date other guys makes her the wrong candidate for The One. Of course, the move seemed more calculated to break them up, the same cycle we're in at this point. So one has to wonder why TPTB constantly feel the need to end the relationship as often as they bring them together.

I understand your sentiment. To be fair, there were moments between Peter and MJ in which they were shown as a couple; but considering that Peter was still single and MJ was a supporting character, it would make sense that she wouldn't be in the books all the time (which was one of the problems the marriage had in that it overexposed MJ and issolated them from the rest of the supporting cast). And while MJ did reject Peter's marriage proposal saying that she didn't want to be tied down, Wolfman was the one who revealed--although didn't get into specifics--that MJ had a fear of committment based upon the divorce of her own parents. Plus, MJ was clearly jealous of Betty horning in on Peter and her thought balloons indicated that she was still very much in love with Peter. So her telling Peter that she wanted to date other people was clearly an excuse.

Not that I don't disagree with Wolfman using Peter's first marriage proposal as a way of breaking them up. And having Peter and MJ occassionally split is designed to cause drama in Peter's romantic life, to be sure. But I'm wondering if a lot of the mixed feelings some writers have about MJ is due to the idea that they may see her purely as the "spoiler" and that Gwen was the real woman Peter should have been with.

If they decide to bring them together again, I really- REALLY hope they do it right. Make MJ more than window-dressing, trite love-interest and potential hostage. For example, even after three films I'm not sure why MJ is "the woman he loved before he even liked girls". I've said it before and I'll repeat it. The woman for Peter has to bring something to the table on both levels: to the life of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. A model/actress brings something to the life of Peter, but nothing to Spidey. Gwen did, which is why I've always maintained she was The One. On paper, not simply in the media-machine.

I think the upcoming Models, Inc. mini-series (which of course is designed to appeal to the Britney Spears, teeny bopper girl crowd) has it that while MJ is still a model, she essentially plays ametuer detective to clear Millie the Model of murder. I think having MJ moonlighting as a private investigator could be an interesting angle, especially with her characteristic happy go-lucky personality, not to mention make her less of a potential hostage. Although it might be too much of a retread of Dakota North. Then again, you could have her go into business with Dakota North. That might be interesting.

It's certainly possible for MJ to be developed as such. But as they haven't accomplished this in more than twenty years, I think it's unlikely they'll do now. Marvel's writers need to learn to write first.

Well, it's always possible to improve a character. And yes, I agree with your last statement.

 

[Dragon]

Oh, I will freely admit that when she appeared in the Paper Doll story, I just got a gut feeling over just how WRONG it all was. The way the story was depicted, it was heavily implied that she still remembered her marriage with Peter. Or, if she didn't, then at the very least she knew Peter and Spider-Man were one and the same and that she was still in love with him. So then why in the world is she sleeping with some *****e bag actor and avoiding her friends? As one reviewer said of the issue, while Peter may have been out of character with his role as a papparazzi, what was going on with MJ was outright character assassination.

And that's why the Paper Doll storyline seemed to me to be Marvel's way of truly ENDING the relationship. By making MJ essentially someone that fans wouldn't want in Peter's life. Obviously they didn't succeed, since many fans want MJ back, but that appears to be their purpose.

And yes, Harry hasn't fared better as he's basically become Michael Rossenbaum's version of Lex Luthor from Smallville. And for all intends and purposes, Gwen Stacy is back in the form of Carlie Cooper, the foresnic pathologist chick with glasses (who I happen to think is Menace, thus having a Gwen stand-in ironically be a Goblin stand-in).

I also thought from the moment Carlie first appeared that she was their Gwen stand-in. Daughter of a hero cop, engaged in police work, down-to-earth frined of ther party-girl. This is what also first made me annoyed with BND. They're using Gwen and MJ without really doing it. As I said on the ASM #581 thread, there's nothing really brand new about Brand New Day. As for Harry, your point seems to be correct. So if Harry simply returns to being a villain, then his resurrection was for naught.

I understand your sentiment. To be fair, there were moments between Peter and MJ in which they were shown as a couple; but considering that Peter was still single and MJ was a supporting character, it would make sense that she wouldn't be in the books all the time (which was one of the problems the marriage had in that it overexposed MJ and issolated them from the rest of the supporting cast). And while MJ did reject Peter's marriage proposal saying that she didn't want to be tied down, Wolfman was the one who revealed--although didn't get into specifics--that MJ had a fear of committment based upon the divorce of her own parents. Plus, MJ was clearly jealous of Betty horning in on Peter and her thought balloons indicated that she was still very much in love with Peter. So her telling Peter that she wanted to date other people was clearly an excuse.

Not that I don't disagree with Wolfman using Peter's first marriage proposal as a way of breaking them up. And having Peter and MJ occassionally split is designed to cause drama in Peter's romantic life, to be sure. But I'm wondering if a lot of the mixed feelings some writers have about MJ is due to the idea that they may see her purely as the "spoiler" and that Gwen was the real woman Peter should have been with.

And that's what I don't understand about that period. Conway worked from ASM #122-149 to bring Peter and MJ together. And #150, where Peter revealed at least in his mind that he was over Gwen and now loved MJ was the capper. Fine. And then from #151-183 Len Wein and then Marv Wolfman went in the totally opposite direction, doing everything to down-play their relationship to the point where it was more casual hanging out than anything approaching love. I don't understand why the switching of writers would lead to such a total about face.

But there's no doubt that the proposal debacle was meant to be nothing more than a break-up. MJ could have easily said "I don't think we're ready for marriage yet- but I still want to be with you.." or something along those lines. Not a TOTAL rejection as she gives Peter. And while I understand MJ's reasons for fearing commitment, her behavior at that point clearly still flew in the face of her characterization during Conway's run. MJ had to know that her pursuit of Peter, a man who'd just buried the woman he loved, would be heading toward a serious relationship, not merely the disco-era type dating it turned into. And if anything, it was MJ's own fault that Peter started dating Betty. She dumped him. so did she think he'd sit on the shelf waiting for her? But then, as the Betty situation fared even worse than did Peter and MJ, and Peter's other romantic entanglements went nowhere until MJ's return it seems Marvel just didn't know what to do with Peter relationship-wise. A problem which remains to this day.

I think the upcoming Models, Inc. mini-series (which of course is designed to appeal to the Britney Spears, teeny bopper girl crowd) has it that while MJ is still a model, she essentially plays ametuer detective to clear Millie the Model of murder. I think having MJ moonlighting as a private investigator could be an interesting angle, especially with her characteristic happy go-lucky personality, not to mention make her less of a potential hostage. Although it might be too much of a retread of Dakota North. Then again, you could have her go into business with Dakota North. That might be interesting.

Well, I don't take this as being anything helpful to MJ. This idea seems to maintain her as a one-note joke. Anyway, isn't she a bit past her prime to still be modeling? I mean she simply can't be in her early-twenties anymore. It's not physically possible since she and Peter are the same age and he is years past graduating college.

But moreover, I don't think becoming a detective is the right thing for MJ. I think it would have worked for Gwen because that's how she was established. A cop's daughter and she was always belting people anyway. Violence was in her genes t: I've always thought that MJ might move toward something like psychology, especially with her family history.

Well, it's always possible to improve a character. And yes, I agree with your last statement.

It's definitely possible. And MJ has the basic groundwork to evolve into a great character.

 

[shinlyle]

Well, I have to say that I still have yet to buy an issue of Brand New Day. Actually, I haven't bought an issue since part 2 or 3 of One More Day. I just cannot bring myself to buy into this new direction.

It's taken me awhile to realize why, and I think I've figured it out:

This isn't the Spidey I grew up with anymore. He's not the responsible, unlucky superhero who carries the weight of the world and his family on his shoulders, he's merely an undisciplined, irresponsible punk. As soon as he dealt away his marriage for an Aunt who wanted to die, it became apparent to me that it was time for me and Spidey to part ways.

Which sound smore like our hero facing reality and learning life lessons: A hero who takes the easy way out of a problem by looking for the "Reset" button, or the hero who accepts the decisions he's made, as well as learning to let someone go?

I thought Aunt May dying felt natural (the first time, moreso than how she would have died in OMD), and it would have given us a Peter who was truly independant. Imagine: Peter without that constant in his life, not being able to return home, and having to adjust to it! That's good drama, right there!

Also, if you wanted to end the marriage, you could still have went from that tangent. Peter turns down Mephisto's deal, and since MJ wanted to go through with it instead of letting Aunt May die, MJ and Peter split up. You could even go so far as to show that MJ made her own deal behind Peter's back to have him remasked, and Aunt May died anyway....thus showing that dealing with the devil is never a "good idea". Peter and MJ's marriage ends, and Peter is left without a wife or a mother figure. He is on his own...like a grown up. Imagine that.

Now, it's not the best scenario, but it's a better one than what we got, and we wouldn't sacrifcie our hero for it.

Anyways, I'm saying this as someone with an entire bookcase devoted to Spidey issues ALONE, and an two shelves of another bookcase devoted to just Spidey TPBs and HCs. I just really miss reading about my fave hero.

 

[Meehaul]

I think that would have been a better way to handle it. The Marriage was a gimmick. It had no real development back in the day, and I always thought it was out of character for Pete to marry a burgeoning super model. It just never rang true. And that's why Marvel invested a considerable amount of time trying to explain why Gwen wasn't the one. The emotional resonance of Spider-Man Blue was probably deeper than anything that Pete and MJ had been able to muster. That said, Marvel married Pete off. Once that mistake was made, there were far more honorable, in-character ways of ending the marriage, but Marvel opted for supernatural goofiness instead and had Pete do something that most of us find incredibly offensive and out-of-character. The difficulty, of course, is that Marvel has done so many things over the past couple of decades that seemed wholly out of character for Pete, I consider BND to just be another ridiculous screw up. While I do NOT want the marriage back, I do hope marvel finds a way of making the current situation more palitable to those of us who care about the character, and have been long, long suffering. I've stuck with Spidey through thick and thin, though, and while I can understand why some would abandon the comic, I still hope that Marvel gets the re-boot right, eventually. If DC could resurrect the moribund Batman and return him to his roots, so can Marvel get Pete back on track. My main complaint with the stories thus far is that they've been, more often than not, lackluster. I am hoping Marvel ups the conflict, the stakes, and makes Pete relevant again. After all, that's what set him apart in the first place. While Superman was pushing planets around, Pete was dealing with bad skin, friends on drugs, and war protests. The best Spider-Man was the SM that provided good social commentary and grounded itself in the world. I'm hoping that returns....

 

[stillanerd]

And that's why the Paper Doll storyline seemed to me to be Marvel's way of truly ENDING the relationship. By making MJ essentially someone that fans wouldn't want in Peter's life. Obviously they didn't succeed, since many fans want MJ back, but that appears to be their purpose.

Actually, Dan Slott has said that MJ being Bobby Carr's "mystery girl" and her continuing feelings for Spider-Man was a set-up for a future subplot, considering how we still have yet to see "why Peter and MJ broke up" and "what really happened at their wedding." Of course, given the pace, or lack thereof, they've taken with resolving all the other story threads they set up, that could take at least ANOTHER year.

And besides, MJ is stil actively promoted as Spidey's main love interest, so they're likely to keep the potential for them to one day get back together--if only for marketing reasons--as open-ended as possible.

I also thought from the moment Carlie first appeared that she was their Gwen stand-in. Daughter of a hero cop, engaged in police work, down-to-earth frined of ther party-girl. This is what also first made me annoyed with BND. They're using Gwen and MJ without really doing it. As I said on the ASM #581 thread, there's nothing really brand new about Brand New Day. As for Harry, your point seems to be correct. So if Harry simply returns to being a villain, then his resurrection was for naught.

Same here. Many of the new characters are really just recyled versions of classic characters, only slightly tweaked. Aside from Carlie being the stand-in for Gwen and Lily being another MJ type (or in this case, more or less, the African American Liz Allen) you also have Dexter Bennet as carbon copy of J. Jonah Jameson, only without the charisma and whatever standards Jameson did have. And of course, there's Menace, who is just like every other Goblin rip-off, something even Guggenheim stated in an interview to the Pulse Comiccon website was a mistake.

And that's what I don't understand about that period. Conway worked from ASM #122-149 to bring Peter and MJ together. And #150, where Peter revealed at least in his mind that he was over Gwen and now loved MJ was the capper. Fine. And then from #151-183 Len Wein and then Marv Wolfman went in the totally opposite direction, doing everything to down-play their relationship to the point where it was more casual hanging out than anything approaching love. I don't understand why the switching of writers would lead to such a total about face.

To be fair, some writers don't have the same grasp on the characters as others.

But there's no doubt that the proposal debacle was meant to be nothing more than a break-up. MJ could have easily said "I don't think we're ready for marriage yet- but I still want to be with you.." or something along those lines. Not a TOTAL rejection as she gives Peter. And while I understand MJ's reasons for fearing commitment, her behavior at that point clearly still flew in the face of her characterization during Conway's run. MJ had to know that her pursuit of Peter, a man who'd just buried the woman he loved, would be heading toward a serious relationship, not merely the disco-era type dating it turned into. And if anything, it was MJ's own fault that Peter started dating Betty. She dumped him. so did she think he'd sit on the shelf waiting for her? But then, as the Betty situation fared even worse than did Peter and MJ, and Peter's other romantic entanglements went nowhere until MJ's return it seems Marvel just didn't know what to do with Peter relationship-wise. A problem which remains to this day.

You make a lot of excellent points here, especially with the way they handled Peter after breaking him up with MJ. I'm sure you remember I did a thread a while back on what I thought were the biggest mistakes creatively done to Spider-Man? Well, one of them was Marv Wolfman not only having Peter engage what is arguably an extra-marital affair with a then separated but legally married Betty Brant, but then compounds this by making Peter some kind of swinger and hit with the ladies, due to the fact they couldn't find a suitable love interest to take Gwen or MJ's place. And it was this portrayal of Spider-Man I think Joe Quesada latched onto and wanted to return toward with Spider-Man via OMD/BND--that even though he would occassionally have trouble getting a date, that he dated for no other purpose than just too date. And to me, that's a real mischaracterization of who Peter Parker is.

Also, wouldn't having Peter have a relationship with a married woman essentially make him appear older? Wasn't that the whole objection to Peter being married in the first place? So how come nobody objected to him trying another go at a separated but legally married Betty Brant, not to mention graduating him from college, back then?

Well, I don't take this as being anything helpful to MJ. This idea seems to maintain her as a one-note joke. Anyway, isn't she a bit past her prime to still be modeling? I mean she simply can't be in her early-twenties anymore. It's not physically possible since she and Peter are the same age and he is years past graduating college.

True. You also touch on another aspect of Brand New Day, in that Marvel wants to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand, they want him single because they want to have him young, that all other media aspects of the character have him single. Yet, at the same time, he's still clearly an adult, out of college, and in his mid-twenties at the very least. Yet we're supposed to still see him as a "teenage superhero" and relate to him when he makes the same mistakes he made when he was between 16 and 21 that he makes when he's 25?

But moreover, I don't think becoming a detective is the right thing for MJ. I think it would have worked for Gwen because that's how she was established. A cop's daughter and she was always belting people anyway. Violence was in her genes t: I've always thought that MJ might move toward something like psychology, especially with her family history.

Fair enough.

It's definitely possible. And MJ has the basic groundwork to evolve into a great character.

If the writers quit trying to typecast her in the "model/actress" trope.

 

[TheVileOne]

Peter's still married though.

Everyone in the MU has just FORGOTTEN about the marriage.

 

[Themanofbat]

Peter's still married though.

Everyone in the MU has just FORGOTTEN about the marriage.

They haven't forgotten the wedding because it never happened.

That's what Mephisto changed in the past... the removal of the marriage.

Read the books and become better informed.

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

What about Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21.....
I have that in my collection....
It wasn't erased out of my boxes....

 

[Themanofbat]

What about Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21.....
I have that in my collection....
It wasn't erased out of my boxes....

You also have comics that state that Ben Reilly is the REAL Spider-Man... lol...

 

[Venom 1988]

What about Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21.....
I have that in my collection....
It wasn't erased out of my boxes....

I also have a golden age Batman comic. It still in my collection....but I'm pretty sure it was erased out of existence in the 80s.

 

[shinlyle]

They haven't forgotten the wedding because it never happened.

That's what Mephisto changed in the past... the removal of the marriage.

Read the books and become better informed.

...and possibly go crosseyed from trying to make sense of the "new" yet "not new" continuity where nothing has changed, but everything has changed and it's new, despite being the same....
You who hates....you....clouds.....yankees....

SYSTEM FAILURE!DOES NOT COMPUTE!!

*just yanking your chain, guys. I know...it'll all be explained in 20 issues or so.