Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[American Maid]

Oh, I think we'll get a glimpse of [Surtur] at least, just not sure we need more than a glimpse and a hint at this point.

I hope they show him forging Twilight, like in the books.

DOOOOOOM!!!

 

[American Maid]

Okay so I'm through Balder The Brave 4 (but not started 363 This Kursed Earth yet)

In both this and another part I see that there is a muzzle put on magic users to prevent them from using their spells. I had supposed that at the end of Avengers they muzzled Loki to keep him from trying to talk his way out of trouble, but now I see that it may have to do with that. So it would seem likely that he'll have a muzzle on to prevent his use of magic to start out, probably.

Yeah, that's what I had figured. At the very least, spells might have spoken components and gesture requirements. Keeping him muzzled and shackled would impede that.

In this the plan of the Frost Giants is, after they find out that "Old One Eye" is gone, they decide to attack the allies of Asgard first and then make their way to Asgard. In my summary I was supposing that the attackers might hit the outskirts of Asgard first, possibly Nornheim, and possibly Midgard at the same time, to draw Thor away, for a simultaneous attack on the palace. That could be, or it could be that we have several realms attacking Asgards enemies all at once, drawing them out, perhaps drawing Odin to Alfheim for example, and then that leaves Frigga with not a lot of protection in the palace (this is if Asgards enemies are smart enough and willing to band together, and attack all at once). This being said, I do have some rethinking of strategy to do on my last beginning summary. Hm...

Even so, I saw a lot of similarities between the two when I first read that sequence. So I thought you would be pleased when you got there

So we may have the Vanir, plus Surtur and/or Hela's army, plus Dark Elves, plus maybe Jotunheim is in on it too, all against Asgard, Nornheim, Alfheim, and Midgard. Not sure how they are all getting around to attack these different places though. Hm. again.

You had previously supposed that the Vanir have portal technology. Nornheim is physically part of Asgard the physical entity, but a separate political jurisdiction.

It is a question how they all get down to Midgard, though.

Utgard-Loki says to Karnilla: " So you see Karnilla, The merest addition of shredded Ram's bladder completes the universal solvent. I should say in another centure of two-"
I laughed out loud at this because... he's talking about his magic as if it's science.

Simonson is very good about plugging all the little holes in his story. So I think he has an analytical, scientific slant to his thinking.

 

[elizah72]

I hope they show him forging Twilight, like in the books.

DOOOOOOM!!!

I may need my ear plugs for that part in the theatre if that is the case.

Was the sword in Odin's vault? I can't recall. But if not then yeah, they can show him forging Twilight as they do in the books. He doesn't really need to do much more than that, leading in to Thor 3.

Yeah, that's what I had figured. At the very least, spells might have spoken components and gesture requirements. Keeping him muzzled and shackled would impede that.

Loki muzzled and shackled... and yet at the same time...

Even so, I saw a lot of similarities between the two when I first read that sequence. So I thought you would be pleased when you got there

I WAS!! t:

You had previously supposed that the Vanir have portal technology. Nornheim is physically part of Asgard the physical entity, but a separate political jurisdiction.

It is a question how they all get down to Midgard, though.

I don't think they are ALL getting to Midgard, just the Dark Elves and Thor as far as we can tell from the filming we saw. But we may need to get Odin and some of his army to Alfheim to help, if he's drawn away due to fighting there, and then Frigga is attacked at the palace, and maybe some things are stolen from Odin's vault before he can get back. Then that leaves Odin to pick up the pieces at the palace and defend Asgard, while other stuff is going on with Thor and Loki, etc... maybe.

I think that question that Jaimie avoided answering, that he asked about Sif going to Earth but also in there was or other realms, and she said she couldn't answer that. So I think she was more referring that she can't say what other realms are visited, rather than specifically if she will be on Earth. My take on that, anyway...

 

[American Maid]

Was the sword in Odin's vault? I can't recall. But if not then yeah, they can show him forging Twilight as they do in the books. He doesn't really need to do much more than that, leading in to Thor 3.

Twilight is usually depicted as absolutely enormous--in A:EMH, and in #363 and #364. So whatever sword was in the vault (if there is one) is probably something else.

The Eternal Flame is in Odin's vault, though.

I think that question that Jaimie avoided answering, that he asked about Sif going to Earth but also in there was or other realms, and she said she couldn't answer that. So I think she was more referring that she can't say what other realms are visited, rather than specifically if she will be on Earth. My take on that, anyway...

That could be.

 

[Godzilla2000]

So...is it safe to say that there is a plot?

 

[elizah72]

So...is it safe to say that there is a plot?

I would say so, yes.

 

[Godzilla2000]

*Phew* I'm worried about that because a movie without a comprehensible plot...is a Michael Bay movie.

 

[elizah72]

*Phew* I'm worried about that because a movie without a comprehensible plot...is a Michael Bay movie.

well as I've said I think that the Dark Elves and some of the other realms know that the bifrost is gone and Odin is weakening and they are going to attack Asgard and it's allies in an attempt to oust Asgards control over the 9 realms (similar to what happens with the Frost Giants Karnilla and Nornheim in the Simonson run) So that's fairly straightforward, as we get into who is manipulating and tricking who, that gets more complicated and hard to predict.

And we're thinking that part of it will involve Greenwich standing in for the English Cottwalds in the Simonson run part that involves the dark elves, so that is a gateway to Svartalfheim that Jane and Erik won't realize when they get there to do experiments with portals. And I'm thinking that possibly during the course of things that Jane is either possessed by Hela or Malekith, or she eats the Dark elf food and her soul is sent to Hel (like in the comics) so that they have to recreate a version of the Thor and Balder and co trip to Hel to free those mortal souls Hela is keeping unfairly (which sounds like part of the Lawden spoilers). And possibly at the same time they are looking to free Frigga from Hel and bring her to Valhalla, similar to Thor looking for Odin in Hela's realm during that story, when he believes that Odin may be dead. Again instead of it being Balder that can lead Thor out of Hel, because only the dead can do this, it is Loki, who I am supposing died at the end of Thor 1 and found or fought or tricked his way out of Hel not long prior to Avengers.

sorry I cant figure out any more than that but I've been trying!

regarding the part of Lawden's spoiler where he says they have to train an army.... I've been considering the idea that perhaps the Asgardians are hit hard enough that they have to call upon the ordinary citizens of Asgard (people like the Don Payne cameo in the deleted scene who brings Thor a drink, hardly seems like a warrior) and train them to fight back the threats of the other realms.

 

[American Maid]

well as I've said I think that the Dark Elves and some of the other realms know that the bifrost is gone and Odin is weakening and they are going to attack Asgard and it's allies in an attempt to oust Asgards control over the 9 realms (similar to what happens with the Frost Giants Karnilla and Nornheim in the Simonson run) So that's fairly straightforward, as we get into who is manipulating and tricking who, that gets more complicated and hard to predict.

And we're thinking that part of it will involve Greenwich standing in for the English Cottwalds in the Simonson run part that involves the dark elves, so that is a gateway to Svartalfheim that Jane and Erik won't realize when they get there to do experiments with portals. And I'm thinking that possibly during the course of things that Jane is either possessed by Hela or Malekith, or she eats the Dark elf food and her soul is sent to Hel (like in the comics) so that they have to recreate a version of the Thor and Balder and co trip to Hel to free those mortal souls Hela is keeping unfairly (which sounds like part of the Lawden spoilers). And possibly at the same time they are looking to free Frigga from Hel and bring her to Valhalla, similar to Thor looking for Odin in Hela's realm during that story, when he believes that Odin may be dead. Again instead of it being Balder that can lead Thor out of Hel, because only the dead can do this, it is Loki, who I am supposing died at the end of Thor 1 and found or fought or tricked his way out of Hel not long prior to Avengers.

Yup! We may throw some or all of it away later, but this seems like promising stuff at the moment.

The report of the Italian film show had someone, presumably Thor, reciting the oath of King of the Golden Realm. We supposed he might abdicate in favor of his commitment to Earth (so that would be a surprise from Thor that I forgot to include when I was replying to that question). We think (Elizah's original suggestion, I believe) that Thor might be asked to choose between Midgard and Asgard (the "are you man or god?" question from the panel Elizah posted and CherokeeSam explained), and the price for Thor's abandoning Midgard might be too high.

Other pieces we have not yet found a way to fit in, and still other pieces of the puzzle (such as Alice Krige), we have proposed too many alternatives. It's all very messy, but we'll get to something eventually.

sorry I cant figure out any more than that but I've been trying!

ANd of course, it is forbidden for the rest of us to propose plots in the plots thread

More seriously, throw in your thoughts, folks! Other points of view let us reconsider what we were certain of thus far, and we might get a better idea as a result.

regarding the part of Lawden's spoiler where he says they have to train an army.... I've been considering the idea that perhaps they Asgardians are hit hard enough that they have to call upon the ordinary citizens of Asgard (people like the Don Payne cameo in the deleted scene who brings Thor a drink, hardly seems like a warrior) and train them to fight back the threats of the other realms.

Well, Asgard tends to suffer from the Planet of Hats trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats)--everyone in Asgard is a warrior. So it would be good to show people in other roles there.

But deferring to the trope for a minute, I suppose the people who are the chefs and drink-bearers and shopkeepers are in the reserves (weekend warriors ) and may have already been called up (and with Frigga gone, one wonders who is watching the children of Asgard).

But that bit about training an army is probably the most peculiar of the Lawden spoilers. How does it fit? Still trying to figure it out.

 

[elizah72]

Yup! We may throw some or all of it away later, but this seems like promising stuff at the moment.

it ALL seems like promising stuff at that moment! lol I'm getting a little frustrated with having to toss stuff out though.

The report of the Italian film show had someone, presumably Thor, reciting the oath of King of the Golden Realm. We supposed he might abdicate in favor of his commitment to Earth (so that would be a surprise from Thor that I forgot to include when I was replying to that question). We think (Elizah's original suggestion, I believe) that Thor might be asked to choose between Midgard and Asgard (the "are you man or god?" question from the panel Elizah posted and CherokeeSam explained), and the price for Thor's abandoning Midgard might be too high.

I still think there will be a moral sacrifice (or more), and choosing between Midgard and Asgard may be it, but how to fit it in when there is so much else going on? Ugh..... I'm trying to think now, what were the instances of Moral Sacrifice in the Simonson run that might be applicable to the movie? Hm....

Other pieces we have not yet found a way to fit in, and still other pieces of the puzzle (such as Alice Krige), we have proposed too many alternatives. It's all very messy, but we'll get to something eventually.

Yeah, like Nov. 8th we'll totally get it. LOL

ANd of course, it is forbidden for the rest of us to propose plots in the plots thread

I think I've probably confused the issue too much and often and frightened everyone else away.

And we all know jaqua99 doesn't read long ass posts. so forget about him writing one.

Well, Asgard tends to suffer from the Planet of Hats trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats)--everyone in Asgard is a warrior. So it would be good to show people in other roles there.

well I think that quote from Jaimie about seeing everyday life in Asgard, made me think of that, and the possibility that the training of an army might involve training these non-warriors of Asgard to stand up and defend their home in the final battle of the film, because no one else is left to (or at least so few left to). It will be interesting to see how Thor comes to that conclusion, if there is an attitude of looking down on the non warriors there or something, to realize that those non warriors are needed, and how he'd convince them to fight and convince them they could defeat their enemies despite the odds. It would give him a Henry V speech moment, I'd say, and be quite an accomplishment for Thor as a king or king to be.

 

[American Maid]

it ALL seems like promising stuff at that moment! lol I'm getting a little frustrated with having to toss stuff out though.

Well, maybe you can work up the material into an alternate story. . .

I still think there will be a moral sacrifice (or more), and choosing between Midgard and Asgard may be it, but how to fit it in when there is so much else going on? Ugh..... I'm trying to think now, what were the instances of Moral Sacrifice in the Simonson run that might be applicable to the movie? Hm....

Well, you'll just have to wait until you get to #364: "How shall I weigh the lives of those under my protection against a potential tyranny in my homeland?"

Yeah, like Nov. 8th we'll totally get it. LOL

I would be especially pleased if we finally refine this into something that hangs together pretty solidly, that people feel fits reasonably well into Thor's universe, incorporates all the plot points and spoilers that we have received (including any that are yet to come), and then the movie turns out to be *completely* *different*. ('cause that means we were pretty creative!)

I think I've probably confused the issue too much and often and frightened everyone else away.

So that's why I say to all our readers, take heart and contribute! ("imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood. . . .")

Here's my excuse: still don't have a lot of free time. What free time I do have I'm using to read the Simonson run (and write these posts. . .)

I do intend to collect all the ingredients together at some point and see what other recipes I might be able to cook with them. Or what variant on your recipe I can make

And we all know jaqua99 doesn't read long ass posts. so forget about him writing one.

Well since he's not reading them, then deep in long posts such as this one, we can give him grief with impunity (such as about whether he's a body double in this movie). And we can resolve the question as to whether Loki will be shirtless.

That'll learn 'im.

well I think that quote from Jaimie about seeing everyday life in Asgard, made me think of that, and the possibility that the training of an army might involve training these non-warriors of Asgard to stand up and defend their home in the final battle of the film, because no one else is left to (or at least so few left to). It will be interesting to see how Thor comes to that conclusion, if there is an attitude of looking down on the non warriors there or something, to realize that those non warriors are needed, and how he'd convince them to fight and convince them they could defeat their enemies despite the odds. It would give him a Henry V speech moment, I'd say, and be quite an accomplishment for Thor as a king or king to be.

Well, there's inspiration, and then there's skill. There's only so much the non-warriors are going to be able to do, and only so much they can learn in a given window of time. And if the warriors with centuries of experience couldn't defend the realm, can the cooks and stable help and farm hands turn the tide?

 

[elizah72]

Well, you'll just have to wait until you get to #364: "How shall I weigh the lives of those under my protection against a potential tyranny in my homeland?"

Hm. I wonder who could be the source of that "potential Tyranny" ? LOL

Well, there's inspiration, and then there's skill. There's only so much the non-warriors are going to be able to do, and only so much they can learn in a given window of time. And if the warriors with centuries of experience couldn't defend the realm, can the cooks and stable help and farm hands turn the tide?

It would make for a HEL of a story if they could do that, against all odds, though, wouldnt it? t: and quite uplifting end to a film about an otherwise "dark world".

regarding the Joss quote I posted in the news thread about A2, and him getting out the scalpel to cause pain to the Avengers...

see this is why I think we might see Jane in A2, possibly turned into a villain (via Hela or the Tesseract), even if it' not confirmed she'll be in it (and she could certainly get recast if she's not willing to do that). She seems like she's the person he cares for most on Midgard. To cause Thor the most pain I'm sure Joss would put someone Thor loves in danger, or turn them evil, we've already seen Loki evil in Avengers, and Tom seems to think he's not in A2 (although may be early still), and he even indicated he thought people might be getting tired of Loki as the villain... SO. *looks in Jane's direction*... alternately, I've been supposing that if Loki is able to make some amends with brother in Thor 2, and they are being friends again for the most part, then it would be very upsetting to Thor to then have his brother snatched away and tortured by Thanos. But again, it sounds a little unlikely Loki is even in A2 at this point (which I'm okay with, I'd rather he get bigger parts in other movies)

 

[American Maid]

Hm. I wonder who could be the source of that "potential Tyranny" ? LOL

Who, indeed?

It would make for a HEL of a story if they could do that, against all odds, though, wouldnt it? t: and quite uplifting end to a film about an otherwise "dark world".

True!

regarding the Joss quote I posted in the news thread about A2, and him getting out the scalpel to cause pain to the Avengers...

see this is why I think we might see Jane in A2, possibly turned into a villain (via Hela or the Tesseract), even if it' not confirmed she'll be in it (and she could certainly get recast if she's not willing to do that). She seems like she's the person he cares for most on Midgard.

Probably. (There's also Erik, but Whedon has already tormented him. And the other humans Thor is closest to would be the actual Avengers). But to be devil's advocate, it's always possible that might not be the state of affairs at the end of Thor2. (Although I continue to hope otherwise )

As for whether Portman would do the film, if it fits with her schedule, she probably would. At this point, she's done a number of movies based on comic books or the mythos of which has been made into comic books.

Yeah, I'm optimistic about Jane surviving Thor2. A little less confident about subsequent films, for the reason you mention. . .

To cause Thor the most pain I'm sure Joss would put someone Thor loves in danger, or turn them evil,

It seems to me that it would also cause Thor pain if he saw innocents suffering, especially if he perceived his lack of action or inadequate action to be even partly responsible (which he is likely to think whether or not that is an objectively accurate characterization of events. Thor strikes me as having a big heart.). We have seen that time and again in the Simonson run, including the "moral sacrifice" quote I included last post.

SO. *looks in Jane's direction*...

Jane looks up from her gadget and says, "What?. . ."

alternately, I've been supposing that if Loki is able to make some amends with brother in Thor 2, and they are being friends again for the most part, then it would be very upsetting to Thor to then have his brother snatched away and tortured by Thanos. But again, it sounds a little unlikely Loki is even in A2 at this point (which I'm okay with, I'd rather he get bigger parts in other movies)

Upsetting for his army, too!

 

[elizah72]

Okay so through 365 now. Well I know what's NOT going to happen in Thor 2. Certainly will be no Froggy Thor or Thor having his face ruined by Hela so he has to cover up hideous scars. Froggy Thor was entertaining though... Loki's reaction to his spell working was priceless. LOL

As for Kurse, in this they sort of stop him by stunning him with an energy blast, which for the sake of the film I suppose could be done with a really big lightning blast from Thor's hammer, and then that and someone saying the same thing that Malekith said, that reminds him of what happened with Malekith betraying him. So then he wants to get Malekith. But he's still a danger to Earth so they then need to give him a really big blast to knock him out. Now comes a moral sacrifice I think here, because it's Thor's plan but he says he doesn't know if the little girl from Power Pack will survive using her powers to provide that blast. SO. certainly we wont get that, but if someone else has to set something up, so that this powerful blast happens to stop Kurse then you might get a character dying due to that, and Thor feeling guilt over did he make the right decision or not. The same with letting Skurge fight off Hela's army. The leading character has to weigh the needs and survival of 1 versus the needs and survival of many.

There is a recurring theme I see of the act of taking revenge making you just like those who have done wrong. So while Lawden mentions Frigga's death becoming a vengeance thing, I still say that Thor cannot take revenge for this reason. Loki or Kurse however can, because they are not above revenge as characters.

what I take away from Froggy Thor, well interesting that the Frog that is paralleled with Loki (Bugeye) is the same one who puts Thor's name up genuinely to become the Froggy King in the end. Just sayin. And also I take away that if so unlikely an army as a bunch of little frogs can fight off nasty rats, (and of course they get some help, "reinforcements" if you will, in the end), then certainly it doesn't seem so unlikely that the more ordinary non warrior peoples of Asgard may be able to stand up and fight for themselves and succeed with the help of Thor and co.

During this scheme, Loki has a right to the throne, otherwise he'd not be there scheming to get Odin's scepter, even after bad stuff he's done... SO... certainly we could still have Loki have a claim to the throne in Thor 2, especially if people have differing opinions on what was done to the Frost Giants because they are such a menace. Although he may have additional competition in Tyr. And for that matter, technically Loki has a claim on the throne of Jotunheim as well, and that is possible if the Jotuns don't know who tried to destroy them (and probably blame Thor for it).

I really want a chariot drawn by giant goats in Thor 2. Pretty please?

I see now see how the souls were returned to their mortal bodies by Thor. Interesting, so that could mean, if they recreate that trip and Thor is successful, that's why he's back on Earth again at the end. Interesting that he's so bitter there, that he doesn't feel that the mortals appreciate his sacrifice (which they don't really) and then comes to realize that they need him, even the little frogs. I liked the quote [faith] "can move mountains they say" near the end there and could be another theme to be used.

 

[elizah72]

Jane looks up from her gadget and says, "What?. . ."

*looks innocent*

"oh, nothing, nothing Jane... just thinking of all the horrible, terrible, very very bad things that might happen to you over the next 2 years or so in order to make way for Sif in Thor's bed..."

*ahem*



Incidentally, I don't think I'd like to sleep with an Asgardian on Asgard, they have some SCARY **** hanging up over their beds (even Thor!)

 

[American Maid]

"oh, nothing, nothing Jane... just thinking of all the horrible, terrible, very very bad things that might happen to you over the next 2 years or so in order to make way for Sif in Thor's bed..."

Ya don't say??



(I haven't read #365 yet--that's up next)
Edit: and by "365" I meant "367". (sorry about the confusion). I'm now through #373 and see I have a lot of replyin' to do. . .

 

[elizah72]

Ya don't say??

 

[elizah72]

ok, that's interesting. So what you are proposing is that Algrim dies and goes to Hel, and then Thor and co are in Hel, and maybe Hela decides to change him to Kurse then and there and fight Thor? And then in the course of that Kurse realizes how Malekith (and maybe Hela too) betrayed him, and he helps Thor and co get away by fighting as Skurge does at the bridge? That would take away that revenge moment with Malekith maybe, unless he somehow survives that and is able to leave Hel somehow.

Okay so, giving this a bit more consideration, in the comics at one point we have Thor sending Kurse (who now hates Malekith) down to Hel to torment Hela, another story I read about Thor inhabits the Destroyers body and wreaks havoc in Hel to make Hela break a spell she has on him. SO. What we could get, is Algrim dying and going to Hel, Thor, Loki, and possibly jane and others travelling to Hel to free those mortal souls and/or find and free Frigga, and/or retrieve some item(s) stolen from Odin's vault in the attack on the palace. Then instead of a wrestling match with Hela (the one where she scars him and he wears a mask) to win their freedom, we get the warriors having to defeat all of those who they have defeated in battle, and that's where Algrim appears again. Hela is impressed by his hatred of Thor and decides to give him a boost (and maybe earlier they've stolen something that can do that from Odin's vault, such as the Tesseract in the previous attack, if Hela can't do something like that herself). So we get Kurse vs Thor in Hel. During the course of this, things are looking hopeless, Thor is tied up with Kurse and the dead warriors of the past are so many that his companions are having a tough time. (this is possibly the big Iceland battle, Niffleheim instead of Svartalfheim, I know Chris E. was there too, but he may not have been involved with that particular part of filming, or maybe he is down there in Hel with Hela plotting when the gang arrives, and escapes, I don't know...)

Just when all seems lost, Kurse is given a tremendous blast of lightning, or something like that, to stun him, and he finally remembers that Malekith betrayed him, and his attention and hate turns to focus on that. (if Malekith is there, maybe he is taunting Kurse for still failing to kill Thor, and that's when Kurse remembers, then Malekith makes a quick exit before Kurse can have his revenge). To Hela's horror Kurse starts tearing apart Hel itself, she begs Thor to stop him, help her. This is where giving her a McGuffin from Odin's vault to change Kurse (rather than her doing herself) is helpful because she then may not have a way to change him back or stop him, especially if that item is broken or lost in the course of the fighting. Anyway, Thor agrees to stop him but only in exchange for her letting those souls go, and Frigga go, and whatever else he wants. She agrees and they stun Kurse again, knocking him out so she can imprison him somewhere, and she keeps her word and lets those souls go, but... she didn't agree to let them all go peacefully so we still get more of those dead warriors going after them on the way out.

Later, if we have Malekith and Kurse surviving Thor 2 (with Kurse imprisoned in Hel, but potentially could break out or be let out later), then we could get the culmination of that in Thor 3 or maybe it'll fit in Thor 2. I'm just saying, it was spread out and divided up in the comics, so it may be so in the film, and that makes Malekith available to come back working with Surtur in Thor 3.

By the way, AM, it occurs to me, if they use this, "you must face all the warriors you've killed in battle" thing, then having warriors that are the ordinary people of Asgard, people who have NOT killed before, go into this fight in Hel, would actually make more sense strategically. Because by having those experienced warriors go in, or warriors of Valhalla, mathematically, the experienced warrriors are going to mean those fighting against them are going to be that many more, whereas if we are just talking about those who Thor, Loki, and Sif/Warriors 3 have killed in battle, with the help of these new warriors who have never killed, then the odds seem better... strangely enough.

 

[American Maid]

Okay so through 365 now. Well I know what's NOT going to happen in Thor 2. Certainly will be no Froggy Thor or Thor having his face ruined by Hela so he has to cover up hideous scars.

As you might imagine, I absolutely loved this Frog Thor digression. I laughed as hard as I did watching that Big Bang Theory episode. Too funny!!! More evidence that Simonson's run is all kinds of awesome.

Around the time I joined the Hype, there was a discussion about Frog Thor in Thor2, so I know I'm not the only one who enjoyed Frog of Thunder. But no, I and everyone else agree, we won't see that in the film. The most we might get is a little wink at the audience like this:

<The subject of some baddie with magical power comes up>
Darcy: What's the big deal? It's not like you're saying this guy could turn you into a frog or anything.
Thor: A *frog*?!

I think we can all rest assured that the Power Pack (nor the Beyonder) will appear in this movie. So at least we have that for which to be thankful.

I could still see Hela using the Hand of Glory on Thor. Now, he's already got a beard, so you wouldn't have the bit of him growing a beard to cover up the scars. But I'm sure the makeup department could still do something.

Loki's reaction to his spell working was priceless. LOL

As for Kurse, in this they sort of stop him by stunning him with an energy blast, which for the sake of the film I suppose could be done with a really big lightning blast from Thor's hammer, and then that and someone saying the same thing that Malekith said, that reminds him of what happened with Malekith betraying him. So then he wants to get Malekith. But he's still a danger to Earth so they then need to give him a really big blast to knock him out. Now comes a moral sacrifice I think here, because it's Thor's plan but he says he doesn't know if the little girl from Power Pack will survive using her powers to provide that blast. SO. certainly we wont get that, but if someone else has to set something up, so that this powerful blast happens to stop Kurse then you might get a character dying due to that, and Thor feeling guilt over did he make the right decision or not.

Well, we're not done with Kurse. We meet him again in #366-#368. (And, I suspect, in some issue after #373). I think they'll just skip this scene in New York.

There is a recurring theme I see of the act of taking revenge making you just like those who have done wrong. So while Lawden mentions Frigga's death becoming a vengeance thing, I still say that Thor cannot take revenge for this reason. Loki or Kurse however can, because they are not above revenge as characters.

True, although given that there is this recurring theme, part of me is surprised if even they take revenge, at least without repercussions from the story.

what I take away from Froggy Thor, well interesting that the Frog that is paralleled with Loki (Bugeye) is the same one who puts Thor's name up genuinely to become the Froggy King in the end. Just sayin.

Oh, I had missed that!

And also I take away that if so unlikely an army as a bunch of little frogs can fight off nasty rats, (and of course they get some help, "reinforcements" if you will, in the end), then certainly it doesn't seem so unlikely that the more ordinary non warrior peoples of Asgard may be able to stand up and fight for themselves and succeed with the help of Thor and co.

Fair and true, although the the frog story is played for laughs, rather than drama. One of my biggest laughs came when the frog army storms down the bank of the reservoir, for example: "Hundreds of frogs come hurtling recklessly down the slope toward the startled rats like some unstoppable juggernaut!" hahahahah

During this scheme, Loki has a right to the throne, otherwise he'd not be there scheming to get Odin's scepter, even after bad stuff he's done... SO... certainly we could still have Loki have a claim to the throne in Thor 2, especially if people have differing opinions on what was done to the Frost Giants because they are such a menace.

And btw, he may not need the plot device of calling for a recess of the Althing. First order of business is recitation of the law, and that may well take a week on its own

I really want a chariot drawn by giant goats in Thor 2. Pretty please?

I also like how Thor talks to Toothgrinder (and presumably Toothgnasher).

I see now see how the souls were returned to their mortal bodies by Thor. Interesting, so that could mean, if they recreate that trip and Thor is successful, that's why he's back on Earth again at the end.

Yup.

Interesting that he's so bitter there, that he doesn't feel that the mortals appreciate his sacrifice (which they don't really)

Yeah, my take away from that is that Thor has to escort them to the realm in which their bodies exist, and then the souls can get back on their own.

I can see them using the bitterness in this film, too. Part of what makes his world so dark right now.

(Note: the mortals who don't appreciate him are the homeless people, who are not the same mortals who had been ensorceled by the Dark Elves)

and then comes to realize that they need him, even the little frogs. I liked the quote [faith] "can move mountains they say" near the end there and could be another theme to be used.

And that he values the frogs' lives; they're worth saving too. Even the piper is moved by that. That's our hero!

 

[American Maid]

Okay so, giving this a bit more consideration, in the comics at one point we have Thor sending Kurse (who now hates Malekith) down to Hel to torment Hela, another story I read about Thor inhabits the Destroyers body and wreaks havoc in Hel to make Hela break a spell she has on him.

Yeah, in #373, she's warming up to the spell. I suspect this bit with the Destroyer takes place in Volume 5, which, sadly, the local libraries do not have. (and still waiting for the Omnibus on interlibrary loan)

SO. What we could get, is Algrim dying and going to Hel, Thor, Loki, and possibly jane and others travelling to Hel to free those mortal souls and/or find and free Frigga, and/or retrieve some item(s) stolen from Odin's vault in the attack on the palace. Then instead of a wrestling match with Hela (the one where she scars him and he wears a mask) to win their freedom, we get the warriors having to defeat all of those who they have defeated in battle, and that's where Algrim appears again. Hela is impressed by his hatred of Thor and decides to give him a boost (and maybe earlier they've stolen something that can do that from Odin's vault, such as the Tesseract in the previous attack, if Hela can't do something like that herself).

Keep in mind that Hela is prone to using the letter of the agreement, rather than the spirit of it, to try to wiggle her way into giving herself an advantage. So she could well decide that upgrading Kurse is a way to give her side the edge.

So we get Kurse vs Thor in Hel. During the course of this, things are looking hopeless, Thor is tied up with Kurse and the dead warriors of the past are so many that his companions are having a tough time. (this is possibly the big Iceland battle, Niffleheim instead of Svartalfheim, I know Chris E. was there too, but he may not have been involved with that particular part of filming, or maybe he is down there in Hel with Hela plotting when the gang arrives, and escapes, I don't know...)

Hmmm, Garm tells us that living beings do not generally leave Hel. So my first reaction is to think it's a stretch for Malekith to be in Hel plotting with Hela, analogous to how we see him hanging around Loki's place in the books. But if Hela is aligned with the Dark Elves in this, maybe. . .

To Hela's horror Kurse starts tearing apart Hel itself, she begs Thor to stop him, help her. This is where giving her a McGuffin from Odin's vault to change Kurse (rather than her doing herself) is helpful because she then may not have a way to change him back or stop him, especially if that item is broken or lost in the course of the fighting.

Kudos on the McGuffin. Maybe the good guys recover the McGuffin, and feel it's against their principles to randomly morph other beings.

Now, in the books, Kurse does clang around in Hel for a while. Later, he shows up in another realm. So presumably, Hela ejected him on her own. So she could do that, and then the conflict with Thor could resolve just as it does in the books: Thor gets ahold of her cloak, realizes it's the source of her power and vitality, and threatens to rend it unless Hela keeps her end of the bargain.

Anyway, Thor agrees to stop him but only in exchange for her letting those souls go, and Frigga go, and whatever else he wants. She agrees and they stun Kurse again, knocking him out so she can imprison him somewhere, and she keeps her word and lets those souls go, but... she didn't agree to let them all go peacefully so we still get more of those dead warriors going after them on the way out.

It might also go as you say; I have the impression Hela has to concede defeat when Thor goes down in the Destroyer armor, and he leaves the armor there as a reminder of her humiliation. So maybe she has to concede defeat in the battle you describe, too. But I haven't gotten to that part of the story with the Destroyer in Hel (and it may be a while before I do).

I agree that if it does go that way, we're likely to get a pursuit.

Later, if we have Malekith and Kurse surviving Thor 2 (with Kurse imprisoned in Hel, but potentially could break out or be let out later), then we could get the culmination of that in Thor 3 or maybe it'll fit in Thor 2. I'm just saying, it was spread out and divided up in the comics, so it may be so in the film, and that makes Malekith available to come back working with Surtur in Thor 3.

Possibly! I could see that.

By the way, AM, it occurs to me, if they use this, "you must face all the warriors you've killed in battle" thing, then having warriors that are the ordinary people of Asgard, people who have NOT killed before, go into this fight in Hel, would actually make more sense strategically. Because by having those experienced warriors go in, or warriors of Valhalla, mathematically, the experienced warrriors are going to mean those fighting against them are going to be that many more, whereas if we are just talking about those who Thor, Loki, and Sif/Warriors 3 have killed in battle, with the help of these new warriors who have never killed, then the odds seem better... strangely enough.

Ha!! That's right! How interesting. I think that would fall under the heading of "surprises" for this movie

 

[elizah72]

I could still see Hela using the Hand of Glory on Thor. Now, he's already got a beard, so you wouldn't have the bit of him growing a beard to cover up the scars. But I'm sure the makeup department could still do something.

yeah it could be used on someone, I just don't see them messing up Hemsworth's face, (at least not for long!)... maybe she'll mess up someone else. Hm.

Yeah, in #373, she's warming up to the spell. I suspect this bit with the Destroyer takes place in Volume 5, which, sadly, the local libraries do not have. (and still waiting for the Omnibus on interlibrary loan)

That Omnibus is as heavy as Mjolnir! Then again, perhaps that's because I am not worthy.

Hmmm, Garm tells us that living beings do not generally leave Hel. So my first reaction is to think it's a stretch for Malekith to be in Hel plotting with Hela, analogous to how we see him hanging around Loki's place in the books. But if Hela is aligned with the Dark Elves in this, maybe. . .

In Thor's conversation with Beyonder about what to do with Kurse, Thor says send him to Hel, Malekith is at large in that or a neighboring realm. I think at large means that Thor thinks he's alive in Hel, if he's there, and not trapped by Hela. Also Comics Loki visits Hela in Hel, so why not Malekith?

Now, in the books, Kurse does clang around in Hel for a while. Later, he shows up in another realm. So presumably, Hela ejected him on her own. So she could do that, and then the conflict with Thor could resolve just as it does in the books: Thor gets ahold of her cloak, realizes it's the source of her power and vitality, and threatens to rend it unless Hela keeps her end of the bargain.

OR, maybe in the course of Kurse tearing things up, he tears off her cloak, and revealing her and weakening her (maybe if she's in a dark cloak, he might do this thinking she is Malekith, then move on when he realizes she's not). Then Thor grabs the cloak and forces her to make a bargain as happens in the comic.

Ha!! That's right! How interesting. I think that would fall under the heading of "surprises" for this movie

and actually this idea ties in with several things both with comics and spoilers

1. the unlikely army winning against all odds, as with the Frog army
2. the last Viking story, giving these ordinary citizens the opportunity to die in battle and go to Valhalla rather than Hel, something some of them may not of thought possible for them
3. Moral sacrifice if Thor cannot guarantee these people will survive this battle
4. the need to train an army on Asgard
5. clever strategy. If Loki is the one who died and needs to lead the way in and out, then he would know about having to face those who have been killed in battle. Loki is a smart strategist. Again it is smart strategy to send in warriors who have not killed in battle to minimize the army they will have to face. So it could occur to Loki to suggest the army they need, needs to be one of those who have not yet killed, and yet willing and able to stand up and defend their homeland.
6. aside from the prospect of Valhalla, and defending their home from Hela's threat, we have people fighting to avenge the death of their beloved queen and save her from Hela, so seems like plenty of motivation to me.

 

[jaqua99]

I hope they show him forging Twilight, like in the books.

DOOOOOOM!!!

YES. That was my perfect after credit scene.

Something like this...Loki (or whoever is in league with Surtur) arrives in Musplelheim. Feeling a bit weary, starts to walk through where he is greated and laughed at by fire demons, who essentially escort him to surtur's lair. Meanwhile through out the whole time, we hear *DOOM* every 6 seconds or so. Loki gets to a clearing, and we see his face sort of twist in slight fear/awe, he says something, and the *dooms* stop, surtur says something in return...as the *dooms* continue, and grow more rapid. The camera pans around to behind loki, and zooms out, as we see surtur's back facing us, forging twilight, he's like...200 feet tall. and when the camera zooms all the way out, he puts the forging hammer down, and picks up a sword, which then becomes engulfed in flames, along with his head. end scene :P

 

[elizah72]

YES. That was my perfect after credit scene.

Something like this...Loki (or whoever is in league with Surtur) arrives in Musplelheim. Feeling a bit weary, starts to walk through where he is greated and laughed at by fire demons, who essentially escort him to surtur's lair. Meanwhile through out the whole time, we hear *DOOM* every 6 seconds or so. Loki gets to a clearing, and we see his face sort of twist in slight fear/awe, he says something, and the *dooms* stop, surtur says something in return...as the *dooms* continue, and grow more rapid. The camera pans around to behind loki, and zooms out, as we see surtur's back facing us, forging twilight, he's like...200 feet tall. and when the camera zooms all the way out, he puts the forging hammer down, and picks up a sword, which then becomes engulfed in flames, along with his head. end scene :P

That works yeah, that might be all we get, maybe even not a good look then, because they want the anticipation of seeing him in Thor 3 to keep going. And if he's clearly shown, then that's all past and done.

Sounds good but I think maybe with Malekith instead of Loki though. (or Hela for that matter, since she's sure to be P.O.!) The whole culmination of the Kurse thing may not happen in Thor 2, as I have speculated.

 

[jaqua99]

*looks innocent*

"oh, nothing, nothing Jane... just thinking of all the horrible, terrible, very very bad things that might happen to you over the next 2 years or so in order to make way for Sif in Thor's bed..."

*ahem*



Incidentally, I don't think I'd like to sleep with an Asgardian on Asgard, they have some SCARY **** hanging up over their beds (even Thor!)

oh really please. Good. Get jane out of here. Sif and Thor. not Stupid and Thor

yes, I reffered to Jane as "Stupid"

 

[jaqua99]

That works yeah, that might be all we get, maybe even not a good look then, because they want the anticipation of seeing him in Thor 3 to keep going. And if he's clearly shown, then that's all past and done.

Sounds good but I think maybe with Malekith instead of Loki though. (or Hela for that matter, since she's sure to be P.O.!) The whole culmination of the Kurse thing may not happen in Thor 2, as I have speculated.

it depends if Malekith is alive at the end of the film or not lol. he makes more sense, but I just said Loki in case malekith is dead, though he has no reason to be in league with Surtur. it would work of the kurse thing doesn't end in this. But i don't know. Don't you have the feeling he may sorta be a one and done guy?