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Comics Post your opinions on the Parker marriage here!

That is unrelated to Peter Parker. Peter Parker was never ugly. He has always had a pretty boy face. He was just always some what of a nerd and a dork. But never ugly. The idea that he would not likely hook up with Mary Jane, is because they have highly divergent interests. Peter, even as a college student, was more of a home body and science nerd. Mary Jane was pretty much always the party girl. MJ can see the nice qualities in Peter, but generally speaking, they had slim to nill in common and even less compatibility. At least Gwen Stacy was the docile type.

MJ was alwasy red hot fire. That in no way compares to studies about ugly men marrying beautiful women (or at least women of greater attraction than the husband). MJ's life style (at least before she was rewritten into a mostly boring house wife and struggling actress) is what made it seem unrealistic that she would marry Peter. Not her looks. Gwen Stacy and Betty Brant are pretty much "hot girls" and they both got with Peter at one point or another.

Party girl thing was a cover. which they revealed quite a while ago. sure Mj doesn't have the "smarts" of her husband. but she became his best friend and supported him.
now lets take a break from this for a minute...

I want to know what reason you think Mj has such a large fan base?
 
Originally, wasn't Peter supposed to be ordinary? Look at the old Ditko issues. He wasn't the "dashing" Peter Parker until Romita took over. Alot of this was due to Romita's background in romance and adventure comics. Peter was always portrayed as scrawny, dorky, and very common-looking, until Romita took over.:word:
 
i really have no clue y they would want to end spidey's marriage, i really dont see it...i mean alot a super heroes are married and they dont have a lot a prblems with there marriage, look for example luke and his wife, luke is like a thug and does his thing u know but married and now with a kid...and evn if they wanted to break the marriage, is it making deal with the devil??.....
 
That is unrelated to Peter Parker. Peter Parker was never ugly. He has always had a pretty boy face. He was just always some what of a nerd and a dork. But never ugly. The idea that he would not likely hook up with Mary Jane, is because they have highly divergent interests. Peter, even as a college student, was more of a home body and science nerd. Mary Jane was pretty much always the party girl. MJ can see the nice qualities in Peter, but generally speaking, they had slim to nill in common and even less compatibility. At least Gwen Stacy was the docile type.

MJ was alwasy red hot fire. That in no way compares to studies about ugly men marrying beautiful women (or at least women of greater attraction than the husband). MJ's life style (at least before she was rewritten into a mostly boring house wife and struggling actress) is what made it seem unrealistic that she would marry Peter. Not her looks. Gwen Stacy and Betty Brant are pretty much "hot girls" and they both got with Peter at one point or another.

Whether or not Peter is good looking or not is beside the point. (Even though Sally Avril called Peter "puny" and Flash a "dream boat.") He is the nice guy that landed the hottie.
 
1)Mary Jane to me, contributes to the general flaw of the comics medium as being viewed as an adolescent male power fantasy. Most super heroes are wealthy and powerful men or were nerds/geeks/kids who gained outrageous power that allowed them to transcend their own character foibles as nerds. At least until the rise of the anti-hero character. Peter was a serious nerd who matured into somebody fairly handsome, though still socially and financially troubled young man.

Gainig the spider powers was one part of seeing this fantasy of a loser turning into a hero. The second part comes from him getting a super model for a wife. These are all pyschologically obvious paradigms that have been frequently questioned in various debates, even on a professional level (such as the objectification of women, "girlfriend in a fridge" etc). Mary Jane has hefty breasts, goes from being a stereotypical pretty/popular girl, into becoming this docile and tamed woman who pretty much plays the role of the dutiful wife. She went from being independent and successful, to being married and struggling to find validity in her frequently failing career as an actress. This gives us

-A person with no social or financial power, gaining power through some other means.

-A woman who characteristically would not have associated romantically with the protagonist in question

-The further "taming" of a woman, who was once successful and independent, but now has been reserved to the role of dutiful wife and fan service lingre shots for fans.

People live vicariously through Peter. That has always been his appeal. People related to the nerdy aspect and his frequent woes despite gaining that power. But gaining Mary Jane and keeping her was a greater fantasy that most men love about the comics. Bill Gates (probably the closest real life paralell to Peter Parker) isn't married to a super model. But nerdy ol' Peter did get a super model. And he was able to tame her. This is already visible in the marriage of Storm and Black Panther, where most Storm fans (myself included) feel that the marriage has done a great injustice to Storm's character, where she now takes a back seat to the "man in charge." This is why I view comic marriage like I view comic death. It is stale and forces characters to settle down. Either characters settle down and get married, which produces realistic progression but boring results, or the characters stay exciting and the marriage is placed on the back burner, at which point the marriage no longer seems like it is important to the characters involved. Mary Jane should come back, but she should be Peter's friend or girlfriend. She can serve the same role she used to (confidant and lover) while retaining more of her independence.

2)Even Ditko's Peter Parker was far from being ugly or plain. Glasses merely gave him an erroneously dismissed face. His Aunt and Uncle treated Peter as being this frail boy, but once he gained his spider powers, he only kept that up as a ploy as to not show too much of an external change. Sort of like how he stopped wearing the glasses he had at the start of the Spider-Man film. But he couldn't just become awesome and outgoing over night (though Ultimate Spider-Man did show that take, and that led to Kong sucessfully deducing that Peter was Spider-Man).
 
1)

These are all pyschologically obvious paradigms that have been frequently questioned in various debates, even on a professional level (such as the objectification of women, "girlfriend in a fridge" etc). Mary Jane has hefty breasts, goes from being a stereotypical pretty/popular girl, into becoming this docile and tamed woman who pretty much plays the role of the dutiful wife. She went from being independent and successful, to being married and struggling to find validity in her frequently failing career as an actress. This gives us

-A person with no social or financial power, gaining power through some other means.

-A woman who characteristically would not have associated romantically with the protagonist in question

-The further "taming" of a woman, who was once successful and independent, but now has been reserved to the role of dutiful wife and fan service lingre shots for fans.

People live vicariously through Peter.

I actually agree with all of this. Its my one criticism of the marriage. Mary Jane was a sex object that quietly supported Peter. They never argued or seemed to have real problems in thier relationship. Several times on these boards, I saw people call MJ a b**** because she argued or disagreed with Peter. Well people, sometimes adults disagree. Its part of life. Personally, I would have liked to have seen a little more conflict in thier marriage. Too bad now we wont get that.
 
i really have no clue y they would want to end spidey's marriage, i really dont see it...i mean alot a super heroes are married and they dont have a lot a prblems with there marriage, look for example luke and his wife, luke is like a thug and does his thing u know but married and now with a kid...and evn if they wanted to break the marriage, is it making deal with the devil??.....

Luke Cage isn't a thug. He was a thug in the past, but he has long since abandoned that once he became a hero for hire. And he and Jessica are not alright. She went to Tony Stark because she felt it was safer than being on the run as unregistered. She doesn't even like being a super hero after her tragic events with Purple Man. Luke pretty much decides that she is no longer on a righteoous path and the two have since had a serious falling out over Skrulls and Civil War. Before Sue Storm
was revealed to be a Skrull
, she was already pissed off with Reed and had seperated briefly, due to Civil War. Most comic marriages aren't all that functioning. You are either putting a normal human in serious danger (Mary Jane, Sue Dibny) or create a baby (Spider-Man, Batman) or have too much stress from your super related problems (Jessica Jones, Sue Storm, Wasp). People always cry out for more realism, when comic book marriage is the least realistic circumstance that most characters could endeavor in.
 
Luke Cage isn't a thug. He was a thug in the past, but he has long since abandoned that once he became a hero for hire. And he and Jessica are not alright. She went to Tony Stark because she felt it was safer than being on the run as unregistered. She doesn't even like being a super hero after her tragic events with Purple Man. Luke pretty much decides that she is no longer on a righteoous path and the two have since had a serious falling out over Skrulls and Civil War. Before Sue Storm
was revealed to be a Skrull
, she was already pissed off with Reed and had seperated briefly, due to Civil War. Most comic marriages aren't all that functioning. You are either putting a normal human in serious danger (Mary Jane, Sue Dibny) or create a baby (Spider-Man, Batman) or have too much stress from your super related problems (Jessica Jones, Sue Storm, Wasp). People always cry out for more realism, when comic book marriage is the least realistic circumstance that most characters could endeavor in.

People try to make unrealistic goals into reality all the time. People marry drug addicts or workoholics all the time, thinking that they will manage. Trying to make the impossible possible is a very human trait.
 
People try to make unrealistic goals into reality all the time. People marry drug addicts or workoholics all the time, thinking that they will manage. Trying to make the impossible possible is a very human trait.


Exactly. But as we all know, that doesn't work out. Some how readers foolishly expect the life of Peter Parker to run smoothly, even though you have admitted righ there that people attempt real life marriages, knowing that a better outcome is highly unlikely. Marriage requires a couple to focus on the success of the marriage. That means equal contribution, similar goals and a very similar direction in life. Chris Rock once said you can't have a crack addict married to a born again Christian. You can't have a sunday morning where the conversation goes "Where you off to? Church?" followed by "Where you off to? Hitting the pipe?" It just doesn't work.

Marriage is a paratnership. It is the "ultimate team-up." Spider-Man may save the day, but he is an absolutely terrible husband. Sadly, childish and selfish fans fail to realize that. All of the concern is over Peter and what Peter loses. "Who will Peter confide in" or "Who will comfort Peter" or "Peter would logically progress into marriage." Nobody thinks about what Mary Jane has dealt with as a wife. Cooked meals that go uneaten because Peter is out as Spider-Man. Nights spent alone in bed because Peter is Spider-Man. The nights she doesn't get any sexual gratification either lustful or romantic, because Peter is out being Spider-Man. What about the stress of seeing here husband brought to near death all of the time. Even police officers have days off and insurance. Peter has neither in his role as Spider-Man.

New Avengers showed this brilliantly, when Peter left MJ in bed, to run off to the prison. She asked him to stay and he still left. You know why? Because his marriage to her can't compete with his duty to being a super hero. He has ethics above love. Which may be fine if you are somebody like Batman, who purposely avoids deep relationships (see: Marriage) so that he can be Batman, but it makes no sense for a guy who is supposed to be married.

How can he support Mary Jane? He can't work any regular job. Teachers have to be up early in the morning. High schools usually start their days at 7:45am, which means Peter has to be up before then. Even if they let out at 2:45pm, you still have to stay after class to help students, submit reports. You have to attend PTA meetings, meetings with other faculty members and bosses. What if a crime breaks out during class? He can't just slip away and tell his class to read over the notes. He has to be a responsible adult and do his job. If he is trying to make a marriage work, then even if he gets off campus at lets say...3:30pm...he'd go home, have a meal with his wife...and spend the night with her. But that isn't Peter's life. Because even though Peter may want to take a break, evil never does.

Childish and selfish people want to imagine this idea where Peter can hold a real job and be married, but some how he never has to answer to the duties of marriage. People are so selfish, that MJ has become this object for Peter's benefit, rather than a character that is supposed to be treated with respect. Obviously the fans have none of that for Mary Jane. This is why I say the marriage contributed nothing. Who wants to read about an objectified woman who does Peter's laundry and has a failed career, while her husband frequently ignores her because "duty calls"? That isn't a life, love or marriage. That is a sham, disgrace, disrespectful and pitiful. It not only disrespects a formerly impressive and independent character, but it is disrespectful to the institution of marriage as a legal entity, a body of ideals and a religious perspective.

But fans will persist in reading the adventures of "The Amazing Peter Parker: Absentee Husband" because who cares about Mary Jane Watson-Parker so long as she cooks Peter's meals, washes his clothes and continues to be his eye candy. So three cheers to realism and that genuine love people swear was floating in the air. If Peter loved Mary Jane as a wife and not just as a person, then he would have retired long ago. Then again, we wouldn't be reading the adventures of The Amazing Spider-Man, if that were the case.

But don't worry folks...here's one last look at the submissive, Peter focused, self depricating woman you've all come to apprecaite over the years, doing what she's done best. Supporting Peter and playing the role of his hot, formerly independent and docile wife.

6818_press02-001.jpg


Yep...Peter loved her and fans loved that marriage. Because who doesn't dream of getting an impossibly proportioned woman who just does your laundry and worries about your problems while she used to be successful and now can barely muster any respect in the job market. I'd love to see that return...
 
6818_press02-001.jpg


Yep...Peter loved her and fans loved that marriage. Because who doesn't dream of getting an impossibly proportioned woman who just does your laundry and worries about your problems while she used to be successful and now can barely muster any respect in the job market. I'd love to see that return...

No doubt about it, that was an insulting image to be made into a statue. You're right, it brings to mind the old image of the house wife being barefoot and pregnant. Sadly, being Peter's eye candy was all the readers really expected of MJ.

But it could have been changed. All the marriage needed was a respectful writer, one that treated her as an individual character and not just a fantasy. Would the readers go for it? I dont know. But now we'll never know.

Would a relationship like this have gone on forever? Probably not. Marriages have ended over less than what these two went through together. I can easily see the strain causing a breakup of the marriage. But Quesada didnt want it to end in divorce, because it would age Peter further. But look at Britney Spears, she is-what?-25 years old and has been married and divorced twice. She is hardly old.

A divorce could have worked. It actually could have been a great story and extremely realistic. Instead, we got Peter making a deal with Mephisto to end what seemed to be a happy marriage (at the very least, we didnt see MJ complaining about it, altho I'm sure she would have had some complaints under more respectful writers).

Ending an unhappy marriage through divorce is one thing, ending with the help of the devil to save an elderly woman that by her own admission was ready to die is something else.
 
And that is something I can always agree on. The way they handled ending the marriage, was rather atrocious and immature in itself. Not to mention largely uncharacteristic. But on the same token, fans are crying out for a marriage that was so sacred, when really, nothing about it was sacred at all. They hate Brand New Day, but they want to adhere to Same **** Different Day, where Mary Jane continually puts up with being third place in Peter's life (first comes aunt may, second comes Spider-Man, third comes MJ). Part of life is putting up with what we don't like, but there is a certain degree of excess to that principle, in which we all say "enough is enough."

They almost realistically had that, when MJ and Peter were seperated (for pretty much the very reasons stated). But some how fans managed to ***** about that, so they brought Peter and MJ back together for more suffering. Nobody puts up with unnecessary suffering. Not even for marriage. And if you do, then you are the worst sort of fool, because you are not being fooled by others, but by yourself. I am vehemently and religiously opposed to Peter bargaining with the devil. I would agrue in agreement about hating that, till the cows came home. But nobody can convince me that Peter's marriage was some fantastic plot or character element that has been desecrated . It desecrated itself.
 
And that is something I can always agree on. The way they handled ending the marriage, was rather atrocious and immature in itself. Not to mention largely uncharacteristic. But on the same token, fans are crying out for a marriage that was so sacred, when really, nothing about it was sacred at all. They hate Brand New Day, but they want to adhere to Same **** Different Day, where Mary Jane continually puts up with being third place in Peter's life (first comes aunt may, second comes Spider-Man, third comes MJ). Part of life is putting up with what we don't like, but there is a certain degree of excess to that principle, in which we all say "enough is enough."

They almost realistically had that, when MJ and Peter were seperated (for pretty much the very reasons stated). But some how fans managed to ***** about that, so they brought Peter and MJ back together for more suffering. Nobody puts up with unnecessary suffering. Not even for marriage. And if you do, then you are the worst sort of fool, because you are not being fooled by others, but by yourself. I am vehemently and religiously opposed to Peter bargaining with the devil. I would agrue in agreement about hating that, till the cows came home. But nobody can convince me that Peter's marriage was some fantastic plot or character element that has been desecrated . It desecrated itself.


We can argue back and forth about how they aren't perfect for each other. how they don't complement each other. but at the end of the day we can all agree OMD was sloppy. why is that?

Because It's all in the hands of the writers. :csad:
as long as a story is good people can accept it.

I think what you don't realize sometimes Arach knight that 20 years worth of time means that it had gained fans and some fans were even born into this.

Marvel just gave us a lazy send off and said it didn't happen.

This isn't the first time we've seen a complete reboot for a character. If I remember Tony Stark was never married and he needed a reboot himself. The hulk has gone through this as well. Its like watching someone draw something and erase something because they don't like it or they messed up.
 
Sometimes I think people make too big an incident over things. Do you know how frequently comics adapt and shift their paradigm?

-Superman used to get his powers from atmospheric and gravitational differences between Krypton and Earth. He also used to not be able to fly, nor did he have things such as heat vision and x-ray vision.

-Batman used to kill criminals, without remorse.

-The Flash used to be Barry Allen when I was a little boy, now its been Wally West for about a good twenty-two years.

-The Thing and Reed Richards used to be veterans in Vietnam when I was growing up. Now they are veterans of Desert Storm.

-When I was growing up, Scott Summers was married to Jean Grey (turned out to be Goblin Queen).

The point I am making, is that nothing in comic books stays the same. If it did, I'm sure half the people reading them now, would no longer be reading them lataer. They would become stale. SSDD they call it (same stuff different day). If I complained about everything that changed in comic books when I was a kid or a teenager, I wouldn't be reading them now. Now as i've said many times before, I think it was a choice of unimaginative writing, to merely resolve the marriage issue, via demonic magic. It is morally void and uncharacteristic. But even if Marvel did it some other way, most of you would still be complaining. The truth is...things change.

Heck...I remember the Berlin wall. David Hasselhoff sang when they tore it down. I remember when Russia and other countries were the USSR (remember that from Street Fighter II?). Things change. Real or fictional...if they progress for years, they change. It's natural. Some changes are idiotic...and some seem normal. There are people reading comics today, who read Spider-Man when he first appeared. They read him for twenty years as being unmarried. We've read him for twenty years as being married. Now a new generation can experince him as unmarried once again.

Do not treat this as some gross affront to all that is right. These changes have persisted before us and will persist after us. If you can not accept that, then you perhaps should change readership to an independent book with a single writer/team (I suggest Strangers In Paradise, Bone and Cerebus the Ardvark). Otherwise, get used to what has been going on since the industry began. I can sympathize with your seemingly righteous indignation...but it is uncalled for.

It has been six months of publications, with the equivalent of nearly two years worth of issues (since it is now thrice monthly). It is time to abandon the title, stick with it and see where it is going...or stop reading comics. But we can't all continue this argument so many issues and so many months after the fact. It's time to take a stand people. If you are against it, move on. If you are with it, then stick around like I have. If you are too frustrated, abandon the medium. Lord knows i've done it before. But I think i'm retiring from this debate. It outlasted The Energizer Bunny.
 
There was a writer that treated the marriage with respect and that was Howard Mackie, for allhis other flaws he always made sure that Spider-Man brought conflict nto their marriage.

I remember his Morbious story when Peter went out after him despite being dead on his feet and MJ losing it with him. I also think it was him who decided to take MJ to college. He was also the one who broke them up the first time.
 
I've stated before that if the marriage was given more respect. (Not wiped via demon magic)

Than I personally could accept BND much better.
I know there are fans that would still complain, but the fact at hand is OMD was an over priced book (dollar extra than normal comic) that simply destroyed something fans liked about the books for 20 years. It said it simply didn't happen.

Thats a nice thing to explain to kids, hey wasn't spidey married to mj?

oh yes he was but it was wiped out by devil magic...

huh??
 
Kids are never going to ask.

More likely, you'll have to say to them, "You know son, they used to be married before the forces of evil at Marvel selfishly decided to pull one more fiber out of the fabric of marriage, the institution that holds this great nation together!"

To which he will reply: Ooooookay....Mom, is Dad off his meds again?
 
I remember that Morbius story arc. It had the same Todd McFarlene cover that was used for adjectiveless Spider-Man # 1 (Torrment Story Arc). The only difference was that Spider-Man was wearing the Black costume. Now that story was a prime example of how bad a husband Peter could be. Knowing full well that the costume scared her and scarred her because of Venom, she asked him not to wear it.

Not only was he abandoning her for the evening, to hunt for hobos in the sewers, but he was going to do it in a costume that deeply disturbed MJ. He spent time convincing her of why he needed it (because apparently red and blue would show up in a pitch black sewer), and wore it anyways. And that story is what....from 1991? That's 17 years ago and we could see that Peter just wasn't that good of a husband for Mary Jane.

But I do still agree with you Styleshift. The demon magic mind wipe was lazy and some what direspectful to long time readers who at least deserved something more well thought out. I do understand that change is natural, but it should be presented in a believable fashion. And OMD failed greatly at doing so.
 
Kids are never going to ask.

More likely, you'll have to say to them, "You know son, they used to be married before the forces of evil at Marvel selfishly decided to pull one more fiber out of the fabric of marriage, the institution that holds this great nation together!"

To which he will reply: Ooooookay....Mom, is Dad off his meds again?
LOL ok point taken.:oldrazz:



I remember that Morbius story arc. It had the same Todd McFarlene cover that was used for adjectiveless Spider-Man # 1 (Torrment Story Arc). The only difference was that Spider-Man was wearing the Black costume. Now that story was a prime example of how bad a husband Peter could be. Knowing full well that the costume scared her and scarred her because of Venom, she asked him not to wear it.

Not only was he abandoning her for the evening, to hunt for hobos in the sewers, but he was going to do it in a costume that deeply disturbed MJ. He spent time convincing her of why he needed it (because apparently red and blue would show up in a pitch black sewer), and wore it anyways. And that story is what....from 1991? That's 17 years ago and we could see that Peter just wasn't that good of a husband for Mary Jane.

But I do still agree with you Styleshift. The demon magic mind wipe was lazy and some what disespectful to long time readers who at least deserved something more well thought out. I do understand that change is natural, but it should be presented in a believable fashion. And OMD failed greatly at doing so.

agreed. :woot:
as you know, I liked the marriage.
I'm a reasonable fan.
It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they respectively set it aside. :cwink:

What I don't like is that they gave us 4 overpriced issues of lazy writing (until they got to issue 4 that is) to give us a mind boggling reboot. I can't help but wondering if this will happen again...
 

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