Queens Elementary School Adopts All-Vegetarian Menu

Not really. The world is safer now than it's ever been. It goes to reason growing empathy would be a part of that.

This argument has been fascinating to read, but it can be argued that society at large is less empathic, not just against animals that we eat, but toward our fellow person. Social media and the crude behavior there would suggest little empathy. Then again, it could just be that social media has given the already-petty and vindictive an outlet to hash out their bad tendencies. In any case, the concept of empathy is fluid and varies, depending on the person.

As for safer? Folks in certain parts of Chicago would say otherwise, as would many in various areas. But I realize that I'm cherry-picking here.
 
While I personally am not a Vegan I do think it is good for people to have the options to be one.

If more places offer them these foods I have no issues.
 
I was vegan throughout most of elementary school.


PB&J 4 LIFE. :word:
 
Why does anyone care?

I mean, most vegetarian options are pretty healthy, so kids eating healthier is a good thing I guess. And there really is no downside that I can see. What's the big deal?
 
Better late than never? Vegan diet superiority myth debunked or at least thoroughly questioned with a lot of supporting evidence. The linked article itself has citations to their claims so venture on and read, if you care to look.

The TL;DR version is you really should balance your diet around multiple types of food, meat included.

Wired:

There is no one right way to eat for everyone.

We are all different and what works for one person may not work for the next.

I personally advocate consumption of both animals and plants and I think there is plenty of evidence that this is a reasonable way to eat.

However, I often get comments from vegans who think that people should eliminate all animal foods.

They frequently say that I’m giving out dangerous advice, that I must be corrupt and sponsored by the meat and dairy industry, or that I’m simply misinformed and need to read The China Study.

Really… I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians.

If you want to eat in this way for whatever reason and you are feeling good and improving your health, then great! Keep on doing what you’re doing.

But I do have a serious problem when proponents of this diet are using lies and fear mongering to try and convince everyone else to eat in the same way.

I’m tired of having to constantly defend my position regarding animal foods, so I decided to summarize what I think are the key problems with vegan diets.

Here are 5 reasons why I think vegan (as in no animal foods at all) diets are a bad idea…

1. Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients.

Humans are omnivores. We function best eating both animals and plants.

There are some nutrients that can only be gotten from plants (like Vitamin C) and others that can only be gotten from animals.

Vitamin B12 is a water soluble vitamin that is involved in the function of every cell in the body.

It is particularly important in the formation of blood and the function of the brain.

Because B12 is critical for life and isn’t found in any amount in plants (except some types of algae), it is by far the most important nutrient that vegans must be concerned with.

In fact, B12 deficiency is very common in vegans, one study showing that a whopping 92% of vegans are deficient in this critical nutrient.

But B12 is just the tip of the iceberg… there are other lesser known nutrients that are only found in animal foods and are critical for optimal function of the body.

Here are a few examples:


  • Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios. It is important for muscle mass and bone health, to name a few. Vegans don’t get any animal protein, which can have negative effects on body composition.
  • Creatine helps form an energy reservoir in cells. Studies show that vegetarians are deficient in creatine, which has harmful effects on muscle and brain function.
  • Carnosine is protective against various degenerative processes in the body and may protect against aging. It is found only in animal foods.Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) is the most active form of Omega-3 fatty acids in the body and primarily found in animal foods. The plant form of Omega-3s, ALA, is inefficiently converted to DHA in the body.

Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a crucial molecule in the body and is part of every cell membrane. It is also used to make steroid hormones like testosterone. Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels.

Not surprisingly, vegans and vegetarians have much lower testosterone levels than meat eaters.

Bottom line:
Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients, including Vitamin B12 and Creatine. Studies show that vegans have much lower testosterone levels than their meat-eating counterparts.

2. There are no studies showing that they’re better than other diets.

Despite what vegan proponents often claim, there are no controlled trials showing that these diets are any better than other diets.

They often claim that low-carb, high-fat diets (the opposite of vegan diets) are dangerous and that the evidence clearly shows vegan diets to be superior.

I disagree.

This has actually been studied in a high quality randomized controlled trial (the gold standard of science).

The A to Z study compared the Atkins (low-carb, high-fat) diet to the Ornish (low-fat, near-vegan) diet.

This study clearly shows that the Atkins diet causes greater improvements in pretty much all health markers, although not all of them were statistically significant:


  • The Atkins group lost more weight, 10.4 lbs, while the Ornish group lost only 5.6 lbs.
  • The Atkins group had greater decreases in blood pressure.
  • The Atkins group had greater increases in HDL (the “good”) cholesterol.
  • The Atkins group had greater decreases in Triglycerides. They went down by 29.3 mg/dL on Atkins, only 14.9 mg/dL on Ornish.
  • Then the Atkins dieters were about twice as likely to make it to the end of the study, indicating that the Atkins diet was easier to follow.


Put simply, the Atkins diet had several important advantages while the Ornish diet performed poorly for all health markers measured.

Now, there are some studies showing health benefits and lower mortality in vegetarians and vegans, such as the Seventh-Day Adventist Studies.

The problem with these studies is that they are so-called observational studies. These types of studies can only demonstrate correlation, not causation.

The vegetarians are probably healthier because they are more health conscious overall, eat more vegetables, are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, etc. It has nothing to do with avoiding animal foods.

In another study of 10,000 individuals, where both the vegetarians and non-vegetarians were health conscious, there was no difference in mortality between groups.

One controlled trial showed that a vegan diet was more effective against diabetes than the official diet recommended by the American Diabetes Association.

However, a low-carb diet has also been studied for this purpose and led to much more powerful beneficial effects.

A vegan diet may be better than the typical low-fat diet recommended by the mainstream nutrition organizations, but pretty much any diet fits that description.

Bottom line: Despite all the propaganda, there isn’t any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature.

3. Proponents of vegan diets use lies and fear mongering to promote their cause.


Some vegan proponents aren’t very honest when they try to convince others of the virtues of the vegan diet.

They actively use lies and fear mongering to scare people away from fat and animal foods.

Despite all the propaganda, there really isn’t any evidence that meat, eggs, or animal-derived nutrients like saturated fat and cholesterol cause harm.

People who promote vegan diets should be more honest and not use scare tactics and lies to make people feel guilty about eating animal foods, which are perfectly healthy (if unprocessed and naturally fed).

I’d also like to briefly mention The China Study… which is the holy bible of veganism and apparently “proves” that vegan diets are the way to go.

This was an observational study performed by a scientist who was madly in love with his theories. He cherry picked the data from the study to support his conclusions and ignored the data that didn’t fit.

The main findings of the China study have been thoroughly debunked.

I recommend you look at these two critiques:


  • Denise Minger: The China Study – Fact or Fallacy
  • Chris Masterjohn: What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About The China Study

Also… a new study from China came out very recently, directly contradicting the findings of the China study.

According to this study, men eating red meat had a lower risk of cardiovascular disease and women eating red meat had a lower risk of cancer.

Bottom line: Vegan proponents often use fear mongering and scare tactics in order to convince people not to eat animal foods. They frequently cite The China Study as evidence, which has been thoroughly debunked.

4. Vegan diets may work in the short term, for other reasons.

If you look at vegan message boards, you will quickly find stories of people who have seen amazing health benefits on a vegan diet.

I’ve got no reason to believe that these people are lying.

But it’s important to keep in mind that this is anecdotal evidence, which isn’t science.

You will find the same kinds of success stories for pretty much any diet.

Then you’ll also find tons of people saying they got terrible results on a vegan diet.

Personally, I think that vegan diets can have health benefits for a lot of people… at least in the short term, before the nutrient deficiencies kick in (which can be partly circumvented by supplementation).

However, I don’t think this has anything to do with avoiding animal foods!

Vegan diets don’t just recommend that people avoid animal foods. They also recommend that people avoid added sugars, refined carbohydrates, processed vegetable oils and trans fats.

Then they suggest that people stop smoking and start exercising. There are so many confounders here that can easily explain all the beneficial effects.

These are extremely unhealthy foods, that’s something the vegans and I agree on. I personally think that avoiding these foods is what is causing the apparent benefits.

I am 100% certain that a plant-based diet that includes at least a little bit of animals (the occasional whole egg or fatty fish, for example) will be much healthier in the long-term than a diet that eliminates animal foods completely.

Bottom line: Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods.

5. There is NO health reason to completely avoid animal foods.


Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands (or millions) of years.

We evolved this way.

Our bodies are perfectly capable of digesting, absorbing and making full use of the many beneficial nutrients found in animal foods.

It is true that processed meat causes harm and that it’s disgusting the way “conventionally raised” animals are treated these days.

However, animals that are fed natural diets (like grass-fed cows) and given access to the outdoors are completely different.

Even though processed meat causes harm, which is supported by many studies, the same does NOT apply to natural, unprocessed meat.

Unprocessed red meat, which has been demonized in the past, really doesn’t have any association with cardiovascular disease, diabetes or the risk of death.

It has only a very weak link with an increased risk of cancer and this is probably caused by excessive cooking, not the meat itself.

Saturated fat has also never been proven to lead to heart disease. A study of almost 350 thousand individuals found literally no association between saturated fat consumption and cardiovascular disease.

Studies on eggs show no effect either. Multiple long-term studies have been conducted on egg consumption, which are very rich in cholesterol, and found no negative effects.

The thing is that animal foods… meat, fish, eggs and dairy products for those who can tolerate them, are extremely nutritious.

They are loaded with high quality protein, healthy fats, vitamins, minerals and various lesser known nutrients that have important effects on health.

There may be ethical or religious reasons not to eat animals… I get it. But there is no scientifically valid health reason to completely eliminate animal foods.

Take home message

At the end of the day, the optimal diet for any one person depends on a lot of things.

This includes age, gender, activity levels, current metabolic health, food culture and personal preference.

Vegan diets may be appropriate for some people, not others. Different strokes for different folks.

If you want to eat a vegan diet, then make sure to be prudent about your diet. Take the necessary supplements and read some of the books by the vegan docs, I’m sure they at least know how to safely apply a vegan diet.

If you’re getting results, feeling good and are managing to stick to your healthy lifestyle, then that’s great. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it.

But don’t use fear mongering and scare tactics to persuade people to join your cause and scare them away from perfectly healthy animal foods. That ain’t cool.
 
Well, seeing as it's only one meal a day I think the kids will be fine.
 
Well, seeing as it's only one meal a day I think the kids will be fine.
Die vegan, die!
oyv.gif
 
Better late than never? Vegan diet superiority myth debunked or at least thoroughly questioned with a lot of supporting evidence. The linked article itself has citations to their claims so venture on and read, if you care to look.

The TL;DR version is you really should balance your diet around multiple types of food, meat included.

Wired:

LOL. If vegans were nutrition deficient , there wouldn't be so many famous people and athletes or even parents that raise their babies completely on plant based food and are perfectly healthy . Just Google athletes and famous vegans wiki. As for the supposely "debunking" of the vegan Diet that you posted, it means nothing because I could point you similar studies that contradict the above post and praise the vegan diet.
 
I think it is too late for you to change your mind on this one diet (vegan only) fits all idealism you have. The first two sentences of the article state it all: "There is no one right way to eat for everyone. We are all different and what works for one person may not work for the next." Besides which, you took one part of a comment, ignored the rest and declared it invalid while not refuting anything else that might be true because it is contrary to your beliefs. You do use the fear mongering/lies part though and think that just because someone is famous and/or an athlete it somehow validates their diet or that they know what the hell they're talking about.
 
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As a vegetarian I don't know how one could survive as a vegan. No eggs? No milk? No cheese? :dry:
 
As a vegetarian I don't know how one could survive as a vegan. No eggs? No milk? No cheese? :dry:

Well obviously we survive without them, otherwise there wouldn't be a single vegan around. Milk and cheese are just as bad to your health as meat. Not to mention the forced rape that we do to animals to produce large amounts of milk and eggs living one on top of the other in confined filthy farms. Here's some info in case you didn't know.

Torture and Infanticide: Why Vegans Don’t Eat Dairy
http://veganrabbit.com/the-issues/torture-and-infanticide-why-dairy-is-bad/

The entire life of a dairy cow is a never-ending nightmarish cycle of depression, torture and rape. Yes, rape. Many people believe that cows just naturally produce milk and that their udders would explode if we didn’t milk them. To these uninformed people we are actually doing dairy cows a favor by milking them. This however, couldn’t be farther from the truth.

Cows produce milk for the same reasons humans produce milk. They are mammals like us, and produce milk for the sole purpose of feeding and nourishing their young. Cows must give birth in order to produce milk. But in order to give birth a cow must first be pregnant, and in order for a cow to become pregnant, she must be impregnated. This is called by the dairy industry: “artificial insemination“.

When a dairy cow gives birth she has no time to bond with her child. Her child is taken away from her, never to be seen by her again. This causes an unimaginable amount of stress for both the mother cow and the baby calf.

This is the horrifying truth about the dairy industry. This is the truth they don’t want you to know about. By consuming dairy products you are supporting the production of veal.

Veal is a type of meat known for its tenderness and delicate flavor. Veal comes from the meat of cows, but not just any cows – it comes from baby calves. Half of all calves born are male and because they do not have the ability to give milk, they are seen by the dairy industry as a liability.

But the dairy and meat industries have partnered up to make sure that they both will still be able to make a profit off the lives and deaths of these poor baby cows. They sell the calves meat as “veal” to people who usually buy it at least partially because it is seen as a status symbol and because of how tender the baby animal’s meat is. To get the meat so tender, it wouldn’t be enough to just kill a baby calf – first they have to weaken their bodies.

I started too as a vegetarian, but as soon as I learned enough about meat and dairy I became Vegan immediately and never going back.
 
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That post would be reason #3 in the list quoted above: "Proponents of vegan diets use lies and fear mongering to promote their cause."

You really need to find more reliable, unbiased sources that don't attempt to mislead or play off emotional chords if you want to convince people to change. Most people see that kind of stuff they either ignore it or take offense and go even further in the opposite direction.
 
I completely respect a vegan/organic diet, but I'm currently trying to gain weight because I'm WAAAY too skinny. To gain weight with no meat or dairy would be all the more challenging. Plus I can't always afford organic.
 
LOL. If vegans were nutrition deficient , there wouldn't be so many famous people and athletes or even parents that raise their babies completely on plant based food and are perfectly healthy . Just Google athletes and famous vegans wiki. As for the supposely "debunking" of the vegan Diet that you posted, it means nothing because I could point you similar studies that contradict the above post and praise the vegan diet.

I don't mean to get into this but I had to voice this article based on your accusations that babies on vegan diets are healthy. Children more then anyone need to get as much protein in their diet as possible, when a vegan family straps on that babies knitted hemp onesie and feeds the child their breastmilk (which clearly lacks essential vitamins and nutrient) and feeds the baby soy milk, the child sadly winds up malnourished.

Baby Breastfed By Vegan Mother Dies

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...nintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

I can't post it on this site so you'll have to youtube Penn and Teller's show Bullsh**: Veganism
 
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Here's some more.

http://www.forksoverknives.com/will-switching-to-organic-meat-dairy-and-eggs-save-your-health/
So-called organic meat, dairy and eggs are sold as a means for people to reduce their exposure to hormones and chemical toxins. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) states that animals raised on an organic operation must be fed organic feed and given access to the outdoors. They are given no antibiotics or growth hormones. Organic crops are raised without using most conventional pesticides and using no petroleum-based or sewage-sludge-based fertilizers.

However, while concentrations of some contaminants may be decreased, switching to organic animal-based food does nothing to decrease the risk for the diseases that remain the biggest killers of Americans. Cholesterol, fat (especially saturated fat), and animal protein are the major culprits in animal products that are associated with higher risks of heart disease, diabetes, and some cancers. They are also associated with the development of the many risk factors that lead to these diseases, including obesity and hypertension.

The liver naturally produces all the cholesterol the human body requires, so we never need outside sources. All foods from animals – dairy products, meat (no matter what kind), fish, eggs – contain cholesterol, whereas plants have essentially none.

Cholesterol is a troublemaker. First, it adds to your own cholesterol, which raises the level of cholesterol in your blood. Everyone is different, but generally, every 100 milligrams of cholesterol in your daily diet adds about five points to your total cholesterol level. What does that look like on your plate? A four-ounce serving of beef or chicken, with or without the skin, contains about 100 milligrams of cholesterol. One egg contains over 200 milligrams of cholesterol.
 
That post would be reason #3 in the list quoted above: "Proponents of vegan diets use lies and fear mongering to promote their cause."

You really need to find more reliable, unbiased sources that don't attempt to mislead or play off emotional chords if you want to convince people to change. Most people see that kind of stuff they either ignore it or take offense and go even further in the opposite direction.

Uh, :huh: how is it a lie and fear mongering exactly? Didn't you watch the videos and photos in the link? This is a common practice in the majority of slaughter farms globally.
I could care less if people are so devoid of emotions and full of themselves that instead of accepting reality and change their bad habits at the sight of these horrors, they just "take offense". Not gonna care one bit.
 
I don't mean to get into this but I had to voice this article based on your accusations that babies on vegan diets are healthy. Children more then anyone need to get as much protein in their diet as possible, when a vegan family straps on that babies knitted hemp onesie and feeds the child their breastmilk (which clearly lacks essential vitamins and nutrient) and feeds the baby soy milk, the child sadly winds up malnourished.

Baby Breastfed By Vegan Mother Dies

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...nintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

I can't post it on this site so you'll have to youtube Penn and Teller's show Bullsh**: Veganism

Unfortunately babies die every day for multiple reasons. Obviously those two cases didnt die because they weren't feed with milk that belonged to another speices and not human.
Their human mother's milk is enough . Now we don't know exactly what was going on with the conditions of their health prior to their deaths. But of course the media will rush and blame Veganism for those poor babies loss. Also notice how soy milk is mentioned in those articlescases you provided.

Personally I don't trust soy milk as it is a GMO derivative and would not recommended it to adults nor babies. Generally there is no need for any milk after infancy except our mother's.
 
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And of course you will rush to defend it........

You can not lump in child negligence with "well babies die everyday for X reason" thats such a cop out. If a black guy was killed by a clan member could I just say "well black people die everyday for a number of reasons" no I could not.
 
The entire life of a dairy cow is a never-ending nightmarish cycle of depression, torture and rape. Yes, rape. Many people believe that cows just naturally produce milk and that their udders would explode if we didn’t milk them. To these uninformed people we are actually doing dairy cows a favor by milking them. This however, couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Best way to test their pain, is to raise cows and see it straight from the source

Cows produce milk for the same reasons humans produce milk. They are mammals like us, and produce milk for the sole purpose of feeding and nourishing their young. Cows must give birth in order to produce milk. But in order to give birth a cow must first be pregnant, and in order for a cow to become pregnant, she must be impregnated. This is called by the dairy industry: “artificial insemination“.
Don't they have a few bulls for that purpose?
 
And of course you will rush to defend it........

You can not lump in child negligence with "well babies die everyday for X reason" thats such a cop out. If a black guy died from a clan member could I just say "well black people die everyday for a number of reasons" no I could not.

Yeah I will. Logic, personal ethics and unbiased scientific studies that don't serve the established corporate and farm interests dictate that I should so. I am not sure I get the analogy you made.
 
Best way to test their pain, is to raise cows and see it straight from the source

What do you mean? Do you doubt that's what's happening in reality? Cause the countless hidden cam videos and photos all over the net speak for themselves.

Don't they have a few bulls for that purpose?
That's how it should be by the laws of nature. But in order to produce such large quantities of milk they have to use artificial means to impregnate the animals. It's all in the links I provided. I wonder why we keep recycling the same story.
 
What do you mean? Do you doubt that's what's happening in reality? Cause the hidden cam videos speak for themselves.
I don't mean the farms, I'm sorry for not saying it
To see if we can milk cows without torturing them
 
I don't understand why people are saying this is absurd or not fair to the kids. The article clearly stated that they offered meat lunches but the students were choosing the vegetarian options instead.

Why would the school continue to waste money on meat lunches when the majority of students weren't eating them?
 
I probably should have left this dead since there is absolutely nothing to say that will make a difference and instead will just end up with more propaganda and misleading ******** about the "superior" vegan diet while ignoring anything that refutes it.
 
I don't understand why people are saying this is absurd or not fair to the kids. The article clearly stated that they offered meat lunches but the students were choosing the vegetarian options instead.

Why would the school continue to waste money on meat lunches when the majority of students weren't eating them?

People panic when things are not part of the plan.:o
 

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