Question about women and advertising...

[Heretic]

If your main question is whether you'll be crossing a line or almost crossing one, then I think no. Nude women/even the concept of exploiting women is nothing new. In fact, it's so not new that my first thought as a woman who saw a "naked woman cover" would likely be, "well, that's cliche" rather than be offended lol. I think that anyone who would be offended wouldn't likely be anyone listening to rock music in the first place.

That's cool. It's a cliche' because it works, of course. I dont mind if someone thinks it's dumb. It is dumb.

 

[AndThePickles]

I never said it was dumb, silly. I just really don't think you'll have a problem with outraged people, because it's been done before. And I agree, nudity sells. I was the first person to push using scantily clad women as an advertising campaign in the last Hype Survivor game Hopefully it'll help attract some new listeners for you guys.

 

[Motown Marvel]

You're right!

The band has a history of political activism, so their current fans will get the political message immediately. However, we are going "mainstream" and going to go after college kids and stuff. Those people dont give a darn about politics, they just want to party and have fun. This is ABSOLUTELY an attempt to go after those people (and all of the non political songs are as well). We know the current fans will get the underlying intent...and the hope is that college kids will just see a hot chick and think it's cool.

Going over some of the pictures, we were laughing about how some would end up looking like a glam band cover...and so we just started talking about what the current line is in advertising where women notice and think it's "wrong" or whatever.

We know the current fans will get it. We dont care if drunk 22 year old guys get it, as long as they think the girl is hot...it is literally just a question of what society deems to be objectifying.

then i would recommend not trying to pre-empt or care about what mainstream audiences will think. no matter what you do there are people who are going to be turned off. if you try to think of it any further than what your personally find amusing, then you're over thinking it. i always said the dumbest thing a band can do is to actually TRY and get popular.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So the women who do appear in ads and nude photo's are representative of every women in the world?

If I follow your logic correctly, stereotypes and gender/racial roles exist because the group effected "allow" them to exist .

The difference is, there are women who willingly put themselves in a position to be "objectified".

Porn stars, models, nude or otherwise, it is a conscious choice for them to put themselves in that position. Nobody else put them there, they did.

 

[C. Lee]

What if someone picks it up because it has a sexy chick on the cover, listens to your "political" songs.....and tells everyone to bypass the cd because you used a bait and switch tactic?

 

[Heretic]

I have no clue what Hype Survivor Game is, but if there's half nekkid chicks, count me in.

I meant dumb as in low brow...the model and photographer were saying that one image was more aggressive and sexy and the other was more "angelic" (not my words) so I was curious to see if women really gave a darn if it was artsy or blatantly sexual. She's not exactly clothed in either, so it was really all in the pose, expression etc.

The point is, I cant decide.

 

[AndThePickles]

I have no clue what Hype Survivor Game is, but if there's half nekkid chicks, count me in.

I meant dumb as in low brow...the model and photographer were saying that one image was more aggressive and sexy and the other was more "angelic" (not my words) so I was curious to see if women really gave a darn if it was artsy or blatantly sexual. She's not exactly clothed in either, so it was really all in the pose, expression etc.

The point is, I cant decide.

I'd have to see the two pics to say what my first impression was of each one. I think any woman on here would have to.

 

[Heretic]

What if someone picks it up because it has a sexy chick on the cover, listens to your "political" songs.....and tells everyone to bypass the cd because you used a bait and switch tactic?

That wont happen. At least it shouldnt. This band will be mixing the two. there will be at least one raunchy sex song, a few about relationships. a few about politics. If you buy a cd called A More Perfect Union, with an american flag on the cover, and are surprised when you hear a political song...then I really cant help you. The cover deals with both sides of the band, as do the songs.

 

[Heretic]

i always said the dumbest thing a band can do is to actually TRY and get popular.

I see your point, but have personally experienced the opposite. I have worked with MANY multi-platinum acts, and most of them made a conscious effort to write a cd that would appeal to the masses.

This band is NOT doing that though. We cut a demo and was immediately approached by one of the biggest labels in the world. They told us theyd turn us into Nickleback, but that they wanted us to not be political, and to "dumb down" our songs (no guitar solos, time changes etc). We saw a chance at success and turned it down, because we want to make a statement on our own. Yes, the cover is meant to grab attention...we have the desire to show that the music on THIS cd, not a watered down, "dumb" version of what we play, can still resonate with the public. So,we are selling out...to avoid REALLY selling out lol.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I see your point, but have personally experienced the opposite. I have worked with MANY multi-platinum acts, and most of them made a conscious effort to write a cd that would appeal to the masses.

This band is NOT doing that though. We cut a demo and was immediately approached by one of the biggest labels in the world. They told us theyd turn us into Nickleback, but that they wanted us to not be political, and to "dumb down" our songs (no guitar solos, time changes etc). We saw a chance at success and turned it down, because we want to make a statement on our own. Yes, the cover is meant to grab attention...we have the desire to show that the music on THIS cd, not a watered down, "dumb" version of what we play, can still resonate with the public. So,we are selling out...to avoid REALLY selling out lol.

oh, i was talking more generally, not about you guys specifically. if you guys are finding popularity without compromising your ideals, then more power to you, i wish you the best of luck. but hell, i dont even mind the idea of selling out if thats someone's intentions. sounds like fun. me personally, i want to make music to have fun and add to history of music, which i have immense respect for. if no one hears it or are into it...cool. if doing what i do gets me popular....cooler.

 

[Heretic]

oh, i was talking more generally, not about you guys specifically. if you guys are finding popularity without compromising your ideals, then more power to you, i wish you the best of luck. but hell, i dont even mind the idea of selling out if thats someone's intentions. sounds like fun. me personally, i want to make music to have fun and add to history of music, which i have immense respect for. if no one hears it or are into it...cool. if doing what i do gets me popular....cooler.

I get that. Especially when you play music that is clearly not commercial, or something ridiculously heartfelt like Dylan...sometimes you can get a good following without even being approached by a label. Then you end up making so much money that they want you anyway so they can suck the life out of you.

With us, we are borderline commercial anyway. It's like...in the 80's Kings X was not quite commercial enough to be Bon Jovi, but not progressive enough to be considered Dream Theater, so they languished for decades. A more modern example would be Coheed And Cambria, who dont quite appeal to the entirety of the fans of the emo trend they were lumped into, but arent progressive enough to be considered prog-metal. Our natural sound is somewhere between radio rock and progressive...its just what comes out. That means the labels might be interested, but will want to change us. We aren't really willing to do that, so hopefully we can get some attention and carve out a nice little fanbase of our own.

 

[C. Lee]

That wont happen. At least it shouldnt. This band will be mixing the two. there will be at least one raunchy sex song, a few about relationships. a few about politics. If you buy a cd called A More Perfect Union, with an american flag on the cover, and are surprised when you hear a political song...then I really cant help you. The cover deals with both sides of the band, as do the songs.

So...you are putting a naked hot chick on the cover to get people who don't know your band or what it does to buy it.....and yet are saying that someone shouldn't be surprised by it's political content because they should be able to tell from the cover that it is political based......even though it features a "well known porn hot chick" on the cover.

 

[Heretic]

So...you are putting a naked hot chick on the cover to get people who don't know your band or what it does to buy it.....and yet are saying that someone shouldn't be surprised by it's political content because they should be able to tell from the cover that it is political based......even though it features a "well known porn hot chick" on the cover.

No. The cover features the girl...and an american flag...and the entire preamble to the constitution. That alone should give someone a clue that we might talk about america or the government. Of course, the girl is there being sexy, so they should also think that we deal with other subjects...which we do.

However, a cd cover is there to complement the music, not be the basis for which the entire thing must revolve. If you buy an album expecting the entire thing to revolve around the cover image then you are going to be disappointed just about every single time. Other than concept albums, I cant think of a single cd that features a full tracklist of songs about one image.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Sounds like you're trying to hard with this cover, sexy chick, political imagery, no ones going to get the message except your hardcore fans. You want a sexy cover, that's why you picked a porno chick, just go full sexy, forget the political imagery, it's not going to come through. The cover is about catching the eye, not making a statement. Besides, if you're going after college kids, they'll just be downloading the album anyway, not going to the store to pick it up.

 

[Heretic]

True.

I hate how no one is buying cds anymore. I have always seen value in actually reading the booklet and all of that. I hope people never get that way with comic books.

But here's an example...our cover model is in our top friends on Myspace, and I just got an email from a female fan saying that it is wrong for us to have the her on our friends list! This isn't even about the cover, as this person thinks we shouldnt even be Myspace friends with her...I guess the thought is that most people wont care at all...but those who do are so sensitive that you have to walk on eggshells to not offend them. What's weird is that once you get famous they'll overlook it...but when you are a small act that is trying to grow, they feel it's a personal assault on them if you have a sexy girl on your cover or in videos.

 

[Motown Marvel]

im fine with people not buying CD's. i buy all my albums on vinyl then download the digital for free. the ideal packaging for me is when the vinyl comes with free MP3 downloads. get rid of CD's completely, theres no use for them.

 

[SuperFerret]

No. The cover features the girl...and an american flag...and the entire preamble to the constitution. That alone should give someone a clue that we might talk about america or the government. Of course, the girl is there being sexy, so they should also think that we deal with other subjects...which we do.

However, a cd cover is there to complement the music, not be the basis for which the entire thing must revolve. If you buy an album expecting the entire thing to revolve around the cover image then you are going to be disappointed just about every single time. Other than concept albums, I cant think of a single cd that features a full tracklist of songs about one image.

Seeing as how that screams "political ideas inside", I know more people who would bypass it because of that than the naked woman.

 

[Heretic]

CD sales may be down, but virtually no one buys albums. They tried bringing them back but it fails every time.

You're a musician, so I am curious about your stance on getting rid of CDs.

It costs thousands...tens of thousands...of dollars to create and properly promote a quality release. Unless you are signed to a major label or already rich, this means you have to work hard and save money for a long time just in order to record music for people to hear. Then you give it away? Without a label you must then finance your own tour, and independent acts are getting either door deals or very small guarantees...usually not even enough to cover gas and food to get you to the next show. You hope to be able to sleep in someones living room. CDs to sell and autograph are what will keep you alive on tour. By not making cds to sell, you are losing out on revenue. In the end, you have spent potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, made no profit on tour...and while you were on tour you took time off from your job...and potentially lost your home due to unpaid bills. The argument is that a musician should work his entire life to finance a recording, and then give it away without even trying to recoup the money that they could have used instead to buy a house in full with cash.

If a musician has no desire to tour and plenty of expendable cash, then thats fine, but I'm not sure how you could otherwise support the concept of working your entire life for no chance at a return on your investment.

 

[Heretic]

Seeing as how that screams "political ideas inside", I know more people who would bypass it because of that than the naked woman.

Thats cool. If seeing the Constitution is offensive, then you'd likely be offended by anything we have to say, whether it's political or not.

Bruce Springsteen's Born In The USA was a mighty big seller by the way.

 

[SuperFerret]

It's not the Constitution or the flag themselves that would deter me, nor would I be "offended" by them, it's what they suggest when placed on something like an album cover, which typically translates into politics.

Correction: Thinly veiled political views.

 

[Motown Marvel]

CD sales may be down, but virtually no one buys albums. They tried bringing them back but it fails every time.

You're a musician, so I am curious about your stance on getting rid of CDs.

It costs thousands...tens of thousands...of dollars to create and properly promote a quality release. Unless you are signed to a major label or already rich, this means you have to work hard and save money for a long time just in order to record music for people to hear. Then you give it away? Without a label you must then finance your own tour, and independent acts are getting either door deals or very small guarantees...usually not even enough to cover gas and food to get you to the next show. You hope to be able to sleep in someones living room. CDs to sell and autograph are what will keep you alive on tour. By not making cds to sell, you are losing out on revenue. In the end, you have spent potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, made no profit on tour...and while you were on tour you took time off from your job...and potentially lost your home due to unpaid bills. The argument is that a musician should work his entire life to finance a recording, and then give it away without even trying to recoup the money that they could have used instead to buy a house in full with cash.

If a musician has no desire to tour and plenty of expendable cash, then thats fine, but I'm not sure how you could otherwise support the concept of working your entire life for no chance at a return on your investment.

like i said, i would bundle free mp3 downloads with it's vinyl counterpart and/or other merch items such as t-shirts, hoodies, and tote bags. CD sales may be down, but vinyl sales are steady (if not, on the up). or if you wish, just sell mp3 downloads. you can sell them at your merch table, a card with a download code. that way, you not only make money from the sale, but its almost all profit since you didnt have to pay for the CD and its packaging to be manufactured.

CD's are dead. with the ability to download, theres no reason for them. because A: WHEN people do buy them, they just toss it on their itunes and ipod. the CD itself is rarely used. and B: why buy a CD when i can just find it online for free? theres profit to be made on selling your music, it just requires being a little more creative about it.

 

[Heretic]

It's not the Constitution or the flag themselves that would deter me, nor would I be "offended" by them, it's what they suggest when placed on something like an album cover, which typically translates into politics.

Correction: Thinly veiled political views.

So, you're offended by the concept of free speech...maybe the right to a fair trial?? The first ten amendments arent a "political" issue...unless you hate the constitution.

And I would be shocked if you didnt own any cds that talked about politics...like Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Rage Against The Machine and tns and tons of other bands.

 

[SuperFerret]

I may own CD's that talk about politics, I just don't listen to them anymore. There's few things I care less about than other people's politics, and if I detect an overt political message in any form of entertainment, regardless if I agree with the message or not, it's out of my usual rotation.

And where do you get this "offended" stuff from?

 

[Heretic]

like i said, i would bundle free mp3 downloads with it's vinyl counterpart and/or other merch items such as t-shirts, hoodies, and tote bags. CD sales may be down, but vinyl sales are steady (if not, on the up). or if you wish, just sell mp3 downloads. you can sell them at your merch table, a card with a download code. that way, you not only make money from the sale, but its almost all profit since you didnt have to pay for the CD and its packaging to be manufactured.

CD's are dead. with the ability to download, theres no reason for them. because A: WHEN people do buy them, they just toss it on their itunes and ipod. the CD itself is rarely used. and B: why buy a CD when i can just find it online for free? theres profit to be made on selling your music, it just requires being a little more creative about it.

While you and I may own record players, the vast majority of todays music fans do not, and most have never even seen one. Nickleback have sold millions of cds...but if they released a vinyl it would sell several dozen copies. YOU like vinyls...but the sales facts are clear. If vinyl was even remotely profitable, there would be vinyl stores...but there arent. Most of todays music fans do not want vinyls, as stores who do carry them cant sell them to young fans. Those fans walk past the discount vinyls and grab a cd (if they buy anything at all)

I do agree that cd sales are going the way of the dodo...but thats no reason to not make them. There are thousands of situations where a band needs actual cds in order to get heard. Tons of radio outlets and review opportunities will not accept digital files. Besides...it sets the serious apart from the guys who arent serious. Labels, managers, publicists, and the press knows that any slacker at home can record MP3s...but a serious band will still go through the effort of making a professional release. The serious band is a better investment of time, attention and money.

Download cards are cool, and almost all profit. I've found though that at a live concert people like to buy something that they can get signed and keep. Download cards do not compare to cds in that regard. Also, if someone is going to spend a dollar at your merch booth, it will usually be for a sticker or buttons. If they have ten bucks to blow itll be a tshirt or something like a cd that they can get signed. I do think that download cards will continue to increase in popularity.

 

[Heretic]

I may own CD's that talk about politics, I just don't listen to them anymore. There's few things I care less about than other people's politics, and if I detect an overt political message in any form of entertainment, regardless if I agree with the message or not, it's out of my usual rotation.

And where do you get this "offended" stuff from?

maybe not offended...but you yourself say that an american flag is LESS likely to make you buy a product...

Whats funny is that almost everyone accepts this sort of thing in their entertainment...they are aware that the band will not be singing 12 songs about the cover of their album. I know tons of bands who had no say so whatsoever int what their cover looked like...but people hate to be supportive of other people in forums, so its more fun to trash whatever concept I had asked about.

Keep in mind...I have been involved in the publicity campaigns of MANY platinum cd releases...I am fairly sure that I know what I'm doing. My ONLY question was about women and whether or not they are offended by sexual imagery.