racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[XtremelyBaneful]

tl;dr at the bottom

I wrote a paper on this subject in college, the class itself was quite enlightening. and this being a predominantly comic book forum, the discussion should be quite interesting if this thread takes off.

the entertainment industry of america has come a long way since television was introduced. african american and white actors both would end up mocking blacks on tv with the infamous blackface and that used to be more often than not, how blacks were portrayed.

but today, i am here to argue that about a century later, in this day and age of hollywood, non-racial roles (if you're not sure wat I mean i'll explain it) have become much more of an equal opportunity, but not so much for every race.

wat i mean by non-racial is this: a role in which the character's race has absolutely nothing to do with their arc, besides perhaps their name. a racial role would be denzel washington playing malcolm x in malcolm x (1992) in that, that role had to have a black actor or at the very least, have an actor that looked african/african-american.

it is of my opinion, that nowadays, black actors have equal opportunities for non-racial roles as white. this is both a good thing, and a bad thing. i'll explain the good thing first.

but the good thing is fairly obvious a prime example is the matrix: neo. the role went to keanu reeves, who is of mixed ancestry but appears to be caucasian, but will smith was a runner up.

and THAT, is great. I love how casting directors are noticing, watching, and analyzing actors for their talent and methods and not for their skin. it is showing a true sign of color blindness in American culture that in some cases has been long overdue. and it definitely helps that cinema is a big part of American culture.

now, onto the bad thing(s). there's a few things for me to say here. I said that black actors have equal opportunities for non-racial roles as white actors. the problem is that the same cannot be said for actors of other races. granted, I do not know of very many asian, brown, or hispanic actors, and that may play a part into why they are not seen as often as the rest, but the fact remains.

no one could ever picture jackie chan as the protagonist to i am legend - then again, he is usually typecast as an action hero, ain't he?

no casting director would ever pick dev patel as spiderman - which brings me to my next point, and this is the part where it gets interesting for us.

it seems to me that, other than beloved superheroes who were always written to be white, supporting characters adapted to cinema can be turned black completely at random.

take for example, jamie foxx casted as electro. personally, I do not mind at all that they chose him to be max dillon; jamie foxx is a great friggin actor, but let me just talk about something I noticed.

casts like elba as heimdall and foxx as makes me believe that any sort of supporting character written to be white can easily be changed to black on the big screen, but not the other way around.

for example, lucius fox. i'll admit from the get go i am not too familiar with comics period but i'm just saying what i know. mr. fox was written to be black in the comics, so therefore, any time there is a cinematic adaptation of him, the casting directors make sure that the actor is black as well. well why? if a supporting character written to be white becomes black onscreen, why does falcon HAVE to be played by anthony mackie? why not just make him white?

if the argument then becomes, that most colored characters did not come in abundance during their inception, then i'll simply say that that also goes with how black had their opportunities on television back in the day as well. things have changed and they still are changing.

and then there's the actual protagonists. bruce wayne, will probably never be portrayed as black, partially because it wouldn't make sense, and partially because, they would just never do it.

to me then, I guess it seems that supporting characters that were written to be black, technically render them to also be racial roles. I don't care, but I also do not think it is fair, seeing as how characters written to be white can be casted as otherwise onscreen.

it's another reason why I was so disappointed with bane in dkr. i think tom hardy is a great actor and before we heard much about him I thought he would be fine as bane, for one since bane is half caucasian and tom could still pull it off.
but instead of having that one opportunity of a villain of a diverse background, we had another british-sounding one. ra's al ghul I can kind of understand since in dkr, with the whole lazarus pit and the deshi basra crap they did hint at him having an arab background, but I thought it would have been much more refreshing if nolan had urged tom to have a hispanic accent (i don't care how many people would have thought he sounded funny, like it or not, the comics bane grew up hispanic and grew up a genius too)

the change with heimdall actually did somewhat bother me, since he was siblings with sif and kenneth branagh deliberately ignored this. I honestly wouldn't have minded elba if they still established themselves as interracial siblings in the film; I really wouldn't care, but they didn't, they just ignored it. they may not have thought it was important, but it was in the comics and if it weren't for the comics, those iterations of norse mythology would be existing.

so let's say for asm, they actually did cast dev patel to be peter parker. i'd assume that one standard reaction would be, 'well there already is a colored version of spiderman, and that was miles morales. to that, my reaction would be, well... so what? I don't think we had a colored version of max dillon but they decided to make him colored.

and this goes back to the protagonists thing. I see that casting directors have no problem changing the races of supporting characters but that they hold the main character's race in much higher regard. but ask yourself really... is it that important? and if it is, is it really not racist to make sure it doesn't change? and if they dare DO change the race then they'd effectively be ruining the movie?

to be clear, I'm not advocating for a black harry potter or a white dean thomas (although i did want joe morton to be gandalf and amitabh bachan to be saruman). I was just hoping to see if you guys all saw my point. frankly though, it seems i'm pretty horrible with my words and ideas around this place but i am a nerd, i'm not ashamed of it, and this thread was worth a shot.

it is one of the reasons why I really loved the 1997 cinderella; they had a black protagonist and an asian love interest and their races didn't mean squat.

however, again, on these forums I was accused of being a racist for saying "brown man". I found that strange seeing as how I am a brown man, and honestly I felt as if people were not taking my posts seriously.

Wat I meant to say was, that one brown character, dr. ratha, stuck out like a sore thumb (really, he did since they tried to make it seem like his character had significance) just by being brown. now, i am not saying it was a mistake to put him in there; him being there was another great example of a non-racial role (but perhaps the role was written for him since his character's name is indian) since his race had nothing to do with his role.

for someone who knows nothing about batman, asks the question "who's that black guy in batman again" really be being racist? I don't think so, since almost everyone who is familiar with batman knows that there is one very specific black character and that's fox.

the same went for my thread.

anyways, I would be happy if this becomes a discussion and I hope this thread doesn't get me into trouble. but for those of you who want a tl;dr, here are my main points:

-television and hollywood have come a long way since it became a big part of american culture
-black and white actors have equal opportunities in non-racial roles
-the same cannot be said necessarily of other actors of minority heritage
-characters from literature that were written to be white can simply be changed to black for a cinematic adaptation
-characters from literature that were written to be black have to stay black for a cinematic adaptation
-protagonists from literature that are white have to also stay white in cinematic adaptations BUT... is that really not racist or does it not matter in reality?


BY THE WAY... if I felt I left anything out, I may just resort to making new posts about it instead of editing this post. but that's only if this thread gets people talking.

 

[DarkSentinel]

I actually found this very interesting. Nice work. How did the paper turn out? Did your professor like it?

 

[Thundercrack85]

-characters from literature that were written to be white can simply be changed to black for a cinematic adaptation.

I have to take issue with this. Why is the fact that a character is black important, while if he is white, his skin color is irrelevant?

White people have their own unique cultural heritage, just like every other group. You are acting like that counts for nothing, even though for every person alive, that's a huge part of who they are.

Even for fictional characters, that's a big part of the character.

 

[moviedoors]

I have to take issue with this. Why is the fact that a character is black important, while if he is white, his skin color is irrelevant?

White people have their own unique cultural heritage, just like every other group. You are acting like that counts for nothing, even though for every person alive, that's a huge part of who they are.

Even for fictional characters, that's a big part of the character.

Sometimes a character isn't defined at all by being white. They were white because white was simply the default race for much of pop culture. Not true in all cases, but certainly true some of the time.

 

[Hyde]

In terms of adaptation, if the race of the character matters, don't change it. I really can't see Bruce Wayne ever being black, and Black Panther would never be white. However, a guy like, say, Hawkeye? Fair game.

With Human Torch things get a little more complicated because Invisible Woman is his sister, but Michael B. Jordan would make a great Johnny Storm.

 

[Warhammer]

Very interesting topic. Let's see how far this one goes before a mod shuts the thread down.



I'm not all about changing ethnities of widely known characters just for the sake of doing it. For example, a black James Bond portrayed by Idris Elba (though it'd be amazing, btw) or a Hispanic Batman. It's unnecessary and just opens up a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened. However, things like a black Kingpin by the late Michael Clarke Duncan is no problem at all. First of all, it's the Kingpin. Seriously. Second, he fit the role as a man of large stature who is a gifted actor, plus name recognition. It can work.

With that said, I do love how Hollywood seems to be slowly progressing. Case in point, Kerry Washington in Scandal. It is a ratings juggernaut with a black woman as the lead. Zoe Saldana was recently cast in the upcoming Rosemary's Baby mini-series. This is terrific. I can only hope it can get better. We shouldn't have to have black movies or Hispanic movies. Minorities can be main characters. It can happen.

However, there's also a flip side to that last statement. For some reason, Hollywood execs are still stuck in their old ways and aren't willing to take chances. Case in point, 47 Ronin. The big rumor (that makes alot of sense when you watch the film) was that Keanu Reeves was only supposed to be in the film for 15 minutes. Either they weren't happy that they paid Keanu Reeves to barely be in the film or that they didn't think an Asian man (Hiroyuki Sanada) could be the leading man in the film. I'm inclined to believe both with more emphasis on the latter. Or we can talk about the why Russell Crowe is portraying Noah in the upcoming Noah or why Christian Bale is portraying Moses in the upcoming Exodus.

I truly do hope that in ten years, we can legitimately have minorities in more lead roles and star vehicles. We just need Hollywood big wigs to take chances instead of sticking to the regular procedure.

 

[Warhammer]

In terms of adaptation, if the race of the character matters, don't change it. I really can't see Bruce Wayne ever being black, and Black Panther would never be white. However, a guy like, say, Hawkeye? Fair game.

With Human Torch things get a little more complicated because Invisible Woman is his sister, but Michael B. Jordan would make a great Johnny Storm.

I agree with all of this.

 

[moviedoors]

In terms of adaptation, if the race of the character matters, don't change it. I really can't see Bruce Wayne ever being black, and Black Panther would never be white. However, a guy like, say, Hawkeye? Fair game.

Precisely.

 

[Breogan]

People still use the word "colored"?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I actually found this very interesting. Nice work. How did the paper turn out? Did your professor like it?

thank you I got a b+, which is meh, but my professor said she enjoyed reading it yeah, she just had issue with the essay writing and that it would've been better with proper and stronger formatting

I have to take issue with this. Why is the fact that a character is black important, while if he is white, his skin color is irrelevant?

White people have their own unique cultural heritage, just like every other group. You are acting like that counts for nothing, even though for every person alive, that's a huge part of who they are.

Even for fictional characters, that's a big part of the character.

dude, why are you saying it as if I am the one who made the rules? It's not like I'm the one who casted harold perrineau as mercutio

I happen to agree with you, I think that white characters in literature should stay that way unless there are 0 colored characters in the main cast, which is why I lobby(ied) for joe morton as gandalf and amitabh bachan for saruman.

Sometimes a character isn't defined at all by being white. They were white because white was simply the default race for much of pop culture. Not true in all cases, but certainly true some of the time.

okay fine, ask yourself this though, and I talked about it in the op - is a character like joseph robbie robertson really defined by being black? I don't think he is, there's nothing about him being black that is part of his character arc but since he is black in the comics, they made sure to have a black actor portray him.

I recently didn't even know the character's name so I was referring to him as jjj's black sidekick, which he is, and if I said that it would be an easy way for people to know who I'm talking about, so I don't see it being racist

In terms of adaptation, if the race of the character matters, don't change it. I really can't see Bruce Wayne ever being black, and Black Panther would never be white. However, a guy like, say, Hawkeye? Fair game.

With Human Torch things get a little more complicated because Invisible Woman is his sister, but Michael B. Jordan would make a great Johnny Storm.

like I said, I did not really mind idris elba as heimdall, I thought that was cool as long they still established him and sif, as interracial siblings. they ignored it deliberately just to get some diversity in the cast.

 

[NickNitro]

It's cool to see more Indian actors/actresses in TV shows and movies these days. That I have noticed.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Why do you refer to minorities as "COLORED?"



I think you make some points but the way you present your findings comes off as ignorant or just plain insulting.


"and then there's the actual protagonists. bruce wayne, will probably never be portrayed as black, partially because it wouldn't make sense, and partially because, they would just never do it."

Though I agree he will never be black and think that is a good idea not to and not due to your psuedo science (that wasn't meant as a dig BTW) but other reasons. Why would it not make sense for him to be black?

 

[The Apocalypse]

I wish I could post the Chappelle show skit about the racist animals of Hollywood right now.

 

[Dr. Evil]

It's cool to see more Indian actors/actresses in TV shows and movies these days. That I have noticed.

Of course, one of them (Mindy Kaling) is annoying as hell. She was one of the low points of the final episode of the Office.

As for this topic, Black Women are making waves on TV. Kerry Washington and Nicole Beharie are headlining their own shows. Oscar Winners Halle Berry and Octavia Spencer are soon to follow and it was just announced yesterday that Zoe Saldana will be headlining the miniseries remake of Rosemary's Baby for NBC. The always steady (and still gorgeous) Angela Bassett is in the current season of American Horror Story along with Gaby Sidibe.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Very interesting topic. Let's see how far this one goes before a mod shuts the thread down.



I'm not all about changing ethnities of widely known characters just for the sake of doing it. For example, a black James Bond portrayed by Idris Elba (though it'd be amazing, btw) or a Hispanic Batman. It's unnecessary and just opens up a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened. However, things like a black Kingpin by the late Michael Clarke Duncan is no problem at all. First of all, it's the Kingpin. Seriously. Second, he fit the role as a man of large stature who is a gifted actor, plus name recognition. It can work.

With that said, I do love how Hollywood seems to be slowly progressing. Case in point, Kerry Washington in Scandal. It is a ratings juggernaut with a black woman as the lead. Zoe Saldana was recently cast in the upcoming Rosemary's Baby mini-series. This is terrific. I can only hope it can get better. We shouldn't have to have black movies or Hispanic movies. Minorities can be main characters. It can happen.

However, there's also a flip side to that last statement. For some reason, Hollywood execs are still stuck in their old ways and aren't willing to take chances. Case in point, 47 Ronin. The big rumor (that makes alot of sense when you watch the film) was that Keanu Reeves was only supposed to be in the film for 15 minutes. Either they weren't happy that they paid Keanu Reeves to barely be in the film or that they didn't think an Asian man (Hiroyuki Sanada) could be the leading man in the film. I'm inclined to believe both with more emphasis on the latter. Or we can talk about the why Russell Crowe is portraying Noah in the upcoming Noah or why Christian Bale is portraying Moses in the upcoming Exodus.

I truly do hope that in ten years, we can legitimately have minorities in more lead roles and star vehicles. We just need Hollywood big wigs to take chances instead of sticking to the regular procedure.

Kerry Washngton is terrific and she does a great job. However that's what I've noticed - she's mostly black, and I have yet to see other actresses of minority getting lead roles - freida pinto in planet of the apes was a step up, even though it was a minor role.

People still use the word "colored"?

is that the only thing you got out of my op?

Precisely.

this still goes along with my main points. hawkeye seemed like he was written to be white but it wouldn't be a problem to turn him black on screen, but can you say the same of other superheroes that were written to be black? would it be fair to change their race on the big screen?

Why do you refer to minorities as "COLORED?"



I think you make some points but the way you present your findings comes off as ignorant or just plain insulting.


"and then there's the actual protagonists. bruce wayne, will probably never be portrayed as black, partially because it wouldn't make sense, and partially because, they would just never do it."

Though I agree he will never be black and think that is a good idea not to and not due to your psuedo science (that wasn't meant as a dig BTW) but other reasons. Why would it not make sense for him to be black?

why do I personally refer to them as colored? for a few reasons.

1. everyone knows wat I'll mean and there wouldn't be confusion
2. colleges are still practicing affirmative action
3. there have been people in my life who even recently have called ME a colored person, me being brown and all. sometimes even in a negative light, but I never took it the wrong way.

glad you got a kick out of it though

okay, I'm glad you brought that up but keep in mind that I do not know much about comics in general, I thought I mentioned it in the op just incase I didn't.

So I'm basing this from what I know after watching bb. alfred mentioned that during the 1800s, the caverns that would eventually become the batcave was used by the wayne family at the time to help slaves escape to the north. and if the wayne family's legacy goes that far back in America's past, it really wouldn't make sense for the wayne family to have black heritage.

but that's why it wouldn't make sense, to me at least. if there's discrepancies in the comics about the wayne family's generations, I wouldn't know about it.

also, wat is it that I said that makes me ignorant and/or insulting?

this topic was written for a college paper and my professor was also african and she liked it. it was a class about race so you can bet there times that had past where people may have drawn the line.

 

[DeGenerate10]

Is your shift key broken?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Is your shift key broken?

no it's working fine why

 

[jaymes_e06]

Kerry Washngton is terrific and she does a great job. However that's what I've noticed - she's mostly black, and I have yet to see other actresses of minority getting lead roles - freida pinto in planet of the apes was a step up, even though it was a minor role.

is that the only thing you got out of my op?

this still goes along with my main points. hawkeye seemed like he was written to be white but it wouldn't be a problem to turn him black on screen, but can you say the same of other superheroes that were written to be black? would it be fair to change their race on the big screen?

why do I personally refer to them as colored? for a few reasons.

1. everyone knows wat I'll mean and there wouldn't be confusion
2. colleges are still practicing affirmative action
3. there have been people in my life who even recently have called ME a colored person, me being brown and all. sometimes even in a negative light, but I never took it the wrong way.

glad you got a kick out of it though

okay, I'm glad you brought that up but keep in mind that I do not know much about comics in general, I thought I mentioned it in the op just incase I didn't.

So I'm basing this from what I know after watching bb. alfred mentioned that during the 1800s, the caverns that would eventually become the batcave was used by the wayne family at the time to help slaves escape to the north. and if the wayne family's legacy goes that far back in America's past, it really wouldn't make sense for the wayne family to have black heritage.

but that's why it wouldn't make sense, to me at least. if there's discrepancies in the comics about the wayne family's generations, I wouldn't know about it.

also, wat is it that I said that makes me ignorant and/or insulting?

this topic was written for a college paper and my professor was also african and she liked it. it was a class about race so you can bet there times that had past where people may have drawn the line.

Why don't you just use the word "minorities?" Dude, I'm trying to be as nice as I can but someone calling you "colored" recently does not make it right. Seriously I don't care but some others might really take offence to that and I personally can't blame them.

That being said the contents of what your saying is something that deserves to be discussed but the way you are addressing it feels a bit less educated than the idea itself. The fact that you can't spell "what" correctly but continue to use it all the time is very confusing. When you're making a bold thesis like this you need to do it as articulately as you possibly can. As it stands now it feels more like a rant.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Why don't you just use the word "minorities?" Dude, I'm trying to be as nice as I can but someone calling you "colored" recently does not make it right. Seriously I don't care but some others might really take offence to that and I personally can't blame them.

That being said the contents of what your saying is something that deserves to be discussed but the way you are addressing it feels a bit less educated than the idea itself. The fact that you can't spell "what" correctly but continue to use it all the time is very confusing. When you're making a bold thesis like this you need to do it as articulately as you possibly can. As it stands now it feels more like a rant.

if using colored is supposed to be offensive then so is minority and here's why.

by saying that anyone not white is a minority, basically means that white people = majority, by being the opposite of minority. in that same literal manner, any color that isn't white, which is supposed to be the absence of any kind of pigment, is a color.

and still, I don't see how saying that is supposed to offend anyone... I'm not knocking people for not being white; I'm not, and I got educated at a place surrounded by diversity. but I'm also not fully educated and I never will be. there will always be things I don't know about and as well, I'm taking the liberty of spelling wat the they I want simply because this is the internet and I have a right to be informal.

I also didn't mean for it to come of as a rant, but if people see my point, that's good enough I guess

 

[jaymes_e06]

if using colored is supposed to be offensive then so is minority and here's why.

by saying that anyone not white is a minority, basically means that white people = majority, by being the opposite of minority. in that same literal manner, any color that isn't white, which is supposed to be the absence of any kind of pigment, is a color.

and still, I don't see how saying that is supposed to offend anyone... I'm not knocking people for not being white; I'm not, and I got educated at a place surrounded by diversity. but I'm also not fully educated and I never will be. there will always be things I don't know about and as well, I'm taking the liberty of spelling wat the they I want simply because this is the internet and I have a right to be informal.

I also didn't mean for it to come of as a rant, but if people see my point, that's good enough I guess

Leaves thread.

 

[Dr. Evil]

TV has seen a rapid rise in the number of minority women over the past few years. Lucy Liu is front and center in Elementary, Sarah Shahi (who is Iranian American) is in Person of Interest, Mindy Kaling on her own show, as stupid as that show is. Sophia Vergara has a significant role on Modern Family.

TV has also seen a rise in the number of African American women in the lead. Kerry Washington and Nicole Beharie we've seen. Halle Berry and Octavia Spencer are coming soon and it was just announced yesterday that Zoe Saldana will be the miniseries remake of Rosemary's Baby for NBC. There's also Angela Bassett in American Horror Story.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

wow. i didn't make up those terms. that's simply how they were produced.

edit: at jaymes_e06

 

[DeGenerate10]

no it's working fine why

When starting a sentence usually the first letter is capitalized.

 

[Teelie]

Having absolutely nothing to contribute to the essay itself, I do find it sad that having an essay written at a college level can have such basic mistakes as poor grammar and formatting yet still get a B+.

Then again it depends on the college I guess. Mine would've Failed me with a capital F for it.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Having absolutely nothing to contribute to the essay itself, I do find it sad that having an essay written at a college level can have such basic mistakes as poor grammar and formatting yet still get a B+.

Then again it depends on the college I guess. Mine would've Failed me with a capital F for it.

I don't know many college professors who would even bother reading it.