Rebooting the original Star Wars Trilogy would be an even stupider decision. They basically tried that with this Trilogy and it failed. If you thought people were angry about some of the things they did with this trilogy, try doing a complete reboot and see how well that goes.
Rebooting the original Star Wars Trilogy would be an even stupider decision. They basically tried that with this Trilogy and it failed. If you thought people were angry about some of the things they did with this trilogy, try doing a complete reboot and see how well that goes.
I completely agree with you but the rumor is Disney plans on taking all those classic films they brought from Fox and putting them in their vault and doing remakes to them.
I completely agree with you but the rumor is Disney plans on taking all those classic films they brought from Fox and putting them in their vault and doing remakes to them.
I don't buy that, honestly. I am sure they will remake a movie or two here or there, but I don't see them putting these older and profitable movies in the vault. That seems counterintuitive to the point of buying the company. They bought it for content for their streaming platforms. Vaulting them is counter to that strategy. So I don't buy this rumor
Just catering to fans doesn't work, obviously. It's not like ordering food at a restaurant. There can be some give and take. I don't know that fan perspectives are completely worthless. It's not a bad idea to understand why a particular thing is compelling to people.
The Nolan Batman films are a great example of this, imho. They are not based on a fan wish list, but they understand why Batman fans love Batman so much.
It's not about pleasing everyone, or simply delivering on expectations, but understanding the core appeal and building something compelling around that.
I thought that Endgame was also a good example. That movie made a lot of unexpected choices, took characters in challenging directions, and built its plot around a pretty wild time travel concept, all while telling a story about mental health recovery (in summary).
Is everybody happy? Did everything work perfectly? No, but the movie delivered something grand and satisfying that felt like a worthy culmination of the saga without being tame or predictable.
I'd say the fan catering thing is basically a result of the growth of social media and the connections that fans now have with the studios and filmmakers.
The Nolan films were made basically when social media was in its infancy, and fans couldn't really have the same amplified voice they have now.
Fans have always voiced complaints and been vocal of course, but now they can actually indirectly or directly effect the creative decision and film-making ,process via twitter, youtube, messageboards, online petitions.
You add to that endless articles which highlight this behavior, which in itself. has the effect of amplifying the fans demands.
As a result, it gets into the studios and filmmakers heads that everyone is complaining. The result of that is an attempt to please or placate them ala TROS.
Then again, you're more likely to bend if you don't know what you're doing, or really don't have any conviction or faith in what project you're working on.
The dynamics have evolved somewhat, sure, I wouldn't dispute that. But I still think that pandering to fans and actually giving fans something to be excited about are two different things. The former is likely to end in mediocrity at best, but the latter can happen while still expanding the audience.
I'd say the fan catering thing is basically a result of the growth of social media and the connections that fans now have with the studios and filmmakers.
The Nolan films were made basically when social media was in its infancy, and fans couldn't really have the same amplified voice they have now.
Fans have always voiced complaints and been vocal of course, but now they can actually indirectly or directly effect the creative decision and film-making ,process via twitter, youtube, messageboards, online petitions.
You add to that endless articles which highlight this behavior, which in itself. has the effect of amplifying the fans demands.
As a result, it gets into the studios and filmmakers heads that everyone is complaining. The result of that is an attempt to please or placate them ala TROS.
Then again, you're more likely to bend if you don't know what you're doing, or really don't have any conviction or faith in what project you're working on.
And I have to admit, I enjoyed it. I think it had concepts with lots of potential and a relatively fun execution. The main problem is that it just feels to squished into one movie, plus it feels like we missed a bunch of important stuff off screen.
It also reaffirms my belief that TLJ was a massive waste of a movie...
we spend over 2 and a half hours focusing on almost nothing (with the most important development being Luke's poorly conceived and poorly written arc...which was still unimportant to the plot of RoS, aside from the fact that it resulted in Luke's death), then we skip ahead and suddenly all the interesting stuff happens off screen or is glossed over in the next movie because of limited screentime.
Movie 8 should have been entirely buildup for the stuff we got in RoS. The Sith cult and the Knights of Ren and the other reformed stormtroopers and Poe's past as a drug dealer and Luke and Lando's mission to find Exegol, that stuff should have all been introduced and expanded on in Ep 8.
And, my god, I wish so much that we could've seen the fitting final adventure that J.J. would no doubt have written for Luke. I've no doubt that his Luke would have been much quicker to answer the call to action and would have joined the heroes for one last romp around the galaxy, much like Han did.
It seems so clear to me how Star Wars could have maintained the euphoric high of TFA: it just needed to stay on that track. It's like if you're giving a nice sensual massage to a woman, and then halfway through you decide to dump a bucket of cold ice water on her to be unpredictable, and then when she gets mad you desperately try applying double the amount of hot oil in an attempt to make up for what you did, all while acting confused, as though there was no obvious right way to go about it.
But...ah well, it is what it is. At least I can always just watch fan edits of TLJ that trim it down, so I can skip the dumbest stuff and get through it as fast as possible.
It seems so clear to me how Star Wars could have maintained the euphoric high of TFA: it just needed to stay on that track. It's like if you're giving a nice sensual massage to a woman, and then halfway through you decide to dump a bucket of cold ice water on her to be unpredictable, and then when she gets mad you desperately trying applying double the amount of hot oil in an attempt to make up for what you did, all while acting confused, as though there was no obvious right way to go about it.
.
LOL. wonderful analogy. i love it.
i'm just visualizing all this.
jj abrams trying to quickly apply hot oil on that angry woman's back.
while she berates him.
I liked The Last Jedi. At least Rian took a risk. Playing fan service with the Sequel Trilogy was annoying and useless and didn't advance the story at all or make it interesting.
And I have to admit, I enjoyed it. I think it had concepts with lots of potential and a relatively fun execution. The main problem is that it just feels to squished into one movie, plus it feels like we missed a bunch of important stuff off screen.
It also reaffirms my belief that TLJ was a massive waste of a movie...
we spend over 2 and a half hours focusing on almost nothing (with the most important development being Luke's poorly conceived and poorly written arc...which was still unimportant to the plot of RoS, aside from the fact that it resulted in Luke's death), then we skip ahead and suddenly all the interesting stuff happens off screen or is glossed over in the next movie because of limited screentime.
Movie 8 should have been entirely buildup for the stuff we got in RoS. The Sith cult and the Knights of Ren and the other reformed stormtroopers and Poe's past as a drug dealer and Luke and Lando's mission to find Exegol, that stuff should have all been introduced and expanded on in Ep 8.
And, my god, I wish so much that we could've seen the fitting final adventure that J.J. would no doubt have written for Luke. I've no doubt that his Luke would have been much quicker to answer the call to action and would have joined the heroes for one last romp around the galaxy, much like Han did.
It seems so clear to me how Star Wars could have maintained the euphoric high of TFA: it just needed to stay on that track. It's like if you're giving a nice sensual massage to a woman, and then halfway through you decide to dump a bucket of cold ice water on her to be unpredictable, and then when she gets mad you desperately try applying double the amount of hot oil in an attempt to make up for what you did, all while acting confused, as though there was no obvious right way to go about it.
But...ah well, it is what it is. At least I can always just watch fan edits of TLJ that trim it down, so I can skip the dumbest stuff and get through it as fast as possible.
If by maintain the high that The Force Awakens gave us we mean make very uncreative sequels that do nothing but basically rehash stories from prior movies while offering essentially nothing new, then absolutely Abrams could have done that.
If by maintain the high that The Force Awakens gave us we mean make very uncreative sequels that do nothing but basically rehash stories from prior movies while offering essentially nothing new, then absolutely Abrams could have done that.
Honestly, I miss the days when my biggest fear for the ST was that it would mimic the OT too closely. Yeah, I definitely went into TLJ thinking "I really hope it isn't a rehash of ESB", and my main thought coming out was "well at least it isn't a straight rehash of ESB", but I'd rather have a rehash of ESB that feels like Star Wars than an original movie that doesn't. And TLJ wasn't even fully original, it was more like a remix of elements from all three OT films all smushed together.
But, having seen RoS, I don't think J.J.'s Ep 8 would've been a straight rehash of ESB anyway. RoS borrows way, way less from RotJ than it could have, and ended up being the most original ST film. Only the final confrontation with Palpatine feels RotJ-ish, and even then not really.
And also, I'm not even saying J.J. was necessarily the best pick for 8. I think the absolutely best pick for 8 would've been someone who was willing to "Yes, and..." all of J.J.'s setups with creative, fantasy-embracing, worldbuilding-driven ideas, and introduce lots of setups for J.J. to follow up on. Whereas Rian is like that guy in an improv game who just says "and then everybody died" when it's his turn.
Honestly, I miss the days when my biggest fear for the ST was that it would mimic the OT too closely. Yeah, I definitely went into TLJ thinking "I really hope it isn't a rehash of ESB", and my main thought coming out was "well at least it isn't a straight rehash of ESB", but I'd rather have a rehash of ESB that feels like Star Wars than an original movie that doesn't. And TLJ wasn't even fully original, it was more like a remix of elements from all three OT films all smushed together.
But, having seen RoS, I don't think J.J.'s Ep 8 would've been a straight rehash of ESB anyway. RoS borrows way, way less from RotJ than it could have, and ended up being the most original ST film. Only the final confrontation with Palpatine feels RotJ-ish, and even then not really.
And also, I'm not even saying J.J. was necessarily the best pick for 8. I think the absolutely best pick for 8 would've been someone who was willing to "Yes, and..." all of J.J.'s setups with creative, fantasy-embracing, worldbuilding-driven ideas, and introduce lots of setups for J.J. to follow up on. Whereas Rian is like that guy in an improv game who just says "and then everybody died" when it's his turn.
I just disagree. Honestly, TLJ felt more Star Wars to me than either Abrams film. TLJ felt like a Star Wars movie to me. The Abrams films felt like Star Wars fan fictions. More so TROS than TFA, but TFA was still rooted in that same nostalgia first and movie second mentality I would expect from a fan fic. TLJ at least had a creative vision behind it.
I just disagree. Honestly, TLJ felt more Star Wars to me than either Abrams film. TLJ felt like a Star Wars movie to me. The Abrams films felt like Star Wars fan fictions. More so TROS than TFA, but TFA was still rooted in that same nostalgia first and movie second mentality I would expect from a fan fic. TLJ at least had a creative vision behind it.
I can only assume we look for different things from a Star Wars movie, and I honestly can't fathom what exactly it is TLJ fans look for in a Star Wars movie. When i watch Star Wars, I want a fun, fantasy adventure, with worldbuilding and escapism front and center. I want to see aliens, creative new planets and cultures, a core cast of characters that bounce off eachother as they go on a romp around the galaxy, and villains with ever expanding layers of mystery and revelation as the veil is gradually pulled back.
TLJ isn't anything like that. It's more focused on being commentary than on being a fun fantasy adventure. Its "clean state" approach is the complete antithesis of the "pull back the curtain to reveal more layers to the lore and the mystery" approach that Star Wars always had. And, quite frankly, I can't help but be glad that J.J. took a big dump all over that clean slate approach.
I liked The Last Jedi. At least Rian took a risk. Playing fan service with the Sequel Trilogy was annoying and useless and didn't advance the story at all or make it interesting.
i do appreciate that rian tried to go against the grain with TLJ.
some of it worked, some of it didn't for me.
a lot of it did not work for the fans.
i mostly liked what he did with luke.
it felt honest, real, and tragic to me.
there's always a hero's legend vs a hero's reality.
and rian was willing to question that idea.
heroes do not always win or have the right answer.
and that failure can be a valuable lesson.
i dug that.
i thought stuff like the canton bright sub-plot was dumb tho. lol.
I can only assume we look for different things from a Star Wars movie, and I honestly can't fathom what exactly it is TLJ fans look for in a Star Wars movie. When i watch Star Wars, I want a fun, fantasy adventure, with worldbuilding and escapism front and center. I want to see aliens, creative new planets and cultures, a core cast of characters that bounce off eachother as they go on a romp around the galaxy, and villains with ever expanding layers of mystery and revelation as the veil is gradually pulled back.
TLJ isn't anything like that. It's more focused on being commentary than on being a fun fantasy adventure. Its "clean state" approach is the complete antithesis of the "pull back the curtain to reveal more layers to the lore and the mystery" approach that Star Wars always had. And, quite frankly, I can't help but be glad that J.J. took a big dump all over that clean slate approach.
When I watch a Star Wars movie, I want fun escapism in fantasy and science fiction as well. But I also want the story to mean something. I want to see them play in that sandbox and do new things and tell me a great story. I think JJ Abrams is a great at making things that look good, but I find that his films are empty. They don't mean anything. They don't have any lasting impact. The original Star Wars movies are ones that have stuck with me my entire life and I think crafted an interesting world and explored interesting themes that have resonated with me well into adulthood. I think Rian Johnson gave me something that I can latch onto and appreciate, while JJ Abrams basically fed me McDonald's. For some, that may be just fine. But I expect more out of a Star Wars movie. Seeing guys shoot blasters and fight with laser swords isn't enough.
There are a couple of times watching The Last Jedi where I could be honest and tell you I was getting misty-eyed. When Luke is talking to R2 on the Millennium Falcon, or when he's talking to Yoda Etc. At no point in either Abrams movie did I find myself that emotionally invested. That entirely comes down to the fact that JJ Abrams just didn't do anything to get me to that type of emotional place or level of investment.
When I watch a Star Wars movie, I want fun escapism in fantasy and science fiction as well. But I also want the story to mean something. I want to see them play in that sandbox and do new things and tell me a great story. I think JJ Abrams is a great at making things that look good, but I find that his films are empty. They don't mean anything. They don't have any lasting impact. The original Star Wars movies are wants to have stuck with me my entire life and I think crafted an interesting world world and explored interesting themes that have resonated with me well into adulthood. I think Rian Johnson gave me something that I can latch onto and appreciate, while JJ Abrams basically fed me McDonald's. For some, that may be just fine. But I expect more out of a Star Wars movie. Seeing guys shoot blasters and fight with laser swords isn't enough.
There are a couple of times watching The Last Jedi or I could be honest and tell you I was getting misty-eyed. When Luke is talking to R2 on the Millennium Falcon, or when he's talking to Yoda Etc. At no point in either Abrams movie did I find myself that emotionally invested. That entirely comes down to the fact that JJ Abrams just didn't do anything to get me to that type of emotional place or level of investment.
Mando is a different animal. I LOVE that show. Hearing the people who don't love it, you get the feeling they weren't going to love anything that didn't START with Boba Fett emerging from the Saarlac pit. I'm so happy with this show because it has made me care about a character whose face I have seen for a total of 10 seconds, and a baby who hasn't spoken yet. Cara Dune...Queel (sp)...they all mattered. Even IG-11.They did more with those 25-55 minute episodes than I expected, and they have me ready for next season.
It feels like Star Wars by stepping WAY out of the path of the Skywalkers, Sith, and everything else. That is a path the next SW movie should follow. All these planets, and we end up hanging out with everyone from the original 3 films which have not been topped by anything since 1983. Let them rest. Move on, and create something new in this universe...and you'll win the fans the way the Mandalorian did.
Mando is a different animal. I LOVE that show. Hearing the people who don't love it, you get the feeling they weren't going to love anything that didn't START with Boba Fett emerging from the Saarlac pit. I'm so happy with this show because it has made me care about a character whose face I have seen for a total of 10 seconds, and a baby who hasn't spoken yet. Cara Dune...Queel (sp)...they all mattered. Even IG-11.They did more with those 25-55 minute episodes than I expected, and they have me ready for next season.
It feels like Star Wars by stepping WAY out of the path of the Skywalkers, Sith, and everything else. That is a path the next SW movie should follow. All these planets, and we end up hanging out with everyone from the original 3 films which have not been topped by anything since 1983. Let them rest. Move on, and create something new in this universe...and you'll win the fans the way the Mandalorian did.
i've enjoyed ALL the star wars movies, each to different degrees.
but i feel the movies outside of the OT are like a glass half full situation.
but Mandalorian does a better job of expanding the world that Lucas started with in A New Hope, compared to the current crop of movies.
Mando is almost akin to how Blade Runner 2049 expands on the original Blade Runner - having references to the mythology but without having to rehash the same plot.
The dynamics have evolved somewhat, sure, I wouldn't dispute that. But I still think that pandering to fans and actually giving fans something to be excited about are two different things. The former is likely to end in mediocrity at best, but the latter can happen while still expanding the audience.
The ironic thing is, that the conventional wisdom among the geek pundits and the media pre-TROS ,was that Disney and Lucasfilm didn't give a damn about the angry SW fans, and that they wouldn't attempt to pander and please the fandom.
Imo, TROS is certainly one of the bigger examples of a studio attempting to pander to an angry section of a fanbase.
TFA is easily the best Disney star wars movie and R1 is way overrated and people overrating it so much kind of makes me like it less. Hopefully over time people will realize just how over ratted R1 is.
When I watch a Star Wars movie, I want fun escapism in fantasy and science fiction as well. But I also want the story to mean something. I want to see them play in that sandbox and do new things and tell me a great story. I think JJ Abrams is a great at making things that look good, but I find that his films are empty. They don't mean anything. They don't have any lasting impact. The original Star Wars movies are ones that have stuck with me my entire life and I think crafted an interesting world and explored interesting themes that have resonated with me well into adulthood. I think Rian Johnson gave me something that I can latch onto and appreciate, while JJ Abrams basically fed me McDonald's. For some, that may be just fine. But I expect more out of a Star Wars movie. Seeing guys shoot blasters and fight with laser swords isn't enough.
There are a couple of times watching The Last Jedi where I could be honest and tell you I was getting misty-eyed. When Luke is talking to R2 on the Millennium Falcon, or when he's talking to Yoda Etc. At no point in either Abrams movie did I find myself that emotionally invested. That entirely comes down to the fact that JJ Abrams just didn't do anything to get me to that type of emotional place or level of investment.
I guess I can see where you're coming from with that. I don't think it's exactly fair, though. TFA was mostly set-up, and to that end it did that job well, it got people excited to see more. RoS, on the other hand had a lot of ideas that could have had deeper meaning if more time had been spent on them, but instead we got the cliff's notes version of events.
TLJ basically focused almost entirely on either character study or meta commentary, to the detriment of everything else, particularly world building, lore, exploring new mysteries and revelations, the things that make a fantasy fantastical. And I think only in the case of Kylo and Luke was the character study done well (ignoring the arguable incongruity between OT Luke and TLJ Luke). What's the point of telling a story in a fantasy world if you don't want to embrace the fantasy side of it, if you're just going to tear down the intricacies of the universe and lore and backstory and simplify the conflict?
There's a balance that could have been achieved that simply wasn't.
TFA is easily the best Disney star wars movie and R1 is way overrated and people overrating it so much kind of makes me like it less. Hopefully over time people will realize just how over ratted R1 is.
It's the only movie to introduce new characters, make you care about them, and genuinely add to the mythos. The Force Awakens was good, but I didn't come out of it with a great deal of love for the characters.
Also, the last minute and a half of Vader was better than the entirety of TFA, in my opinion.
Keep in mind, I like both...but when that red blade ignited, and I watched a Rebel faction fall under the greatest Star Wars villain of all time, it trumped everything the Force Awakens had in it.
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