Returns or 89?

[PreK]

I don't know, I've never seen him dance to any songs. But if he did, I certainly don't think it would be something like Prince. It would be to something more classical, IMO.

Because Joker is such an elegant gentleman, through and through?

 

[The Joker]

Prince is classic.

It wasn't back then.

But how is that Joker should be so stuck into old worldwide accepted stuff? I thought he was a rupturist. I mean, dancing to classical music while... ruining classic paintings?

Why does he have to be dancing at all? How often does he dance to music when doing his evil deeds? Never.

I took the Prince music in the museum as exactly mocking at the place's ellegance. The last thing I expected was Joker breaking into a museum and put... museum music.

The last thing I expected was Joker putting music on at all. Especially when he said they should "Broaden their minds" to that rubbish.

In fact classical music is what we hear in the museum when Vicky was waiting.

How sweet.

But if you want oldest more classic music, well didn't he put some old classic romantic tune on while talking to Vicky?

Yes, he played 'A summer place'. But that was just to set a romantic setting in order to woo Vicki.

Because Joker is such an elegant gentleman, through and through?

It's no different from The Penguin. He's no elegant gentleman, but he thinks he is.

Joker wouldn't sully himself with such music as Prince.

 

[ALP]

It would have been no fun if Joker were dancing and destroying the art to no music at all.

Joker saying, "Gentlemen lets broaden our minds, Lawrence," and then dancing to Prince sort of undercuts the silliness of it. To Jack broadening their minds included destroying millions of dollars worth of art while listening to ridiculous music. Two things no one should do, and certainly not at the same time.

 

[El Payaso]

It wasn't back then.

It's been since the 70's but okay. If he wasn't back then but it is now, what prevents you from enjoying it today?

Why does he have to be dancing at all? How often does he dance to music when doing his evil deeds? Never.

He danced and even sung in The Killing Joke.

Now how many times is the Joker a face-painter? Never. Bad idea per se then?

The last thing I expected was Joker putting music on at all. Especially when he said they should "Broaden their minds" to that rubbish.

Could it possibly be that Joker was being sarcastic?

How sweet.

I know. museums always have classical music. For a rupturist like Joker who thinks improving classic paintings is to randomly add some color to them, I'd bet that he thought Prince would be perfect for a museum.

Plus he stated he was "an artist and loved parties." So him being in a museum while listen to 'Partyman' sounds natural.

Yes, he played 'A summer place'. But that was just to set a romantic setting in order to woo Vicki.

But you see that Joker doesn't only listen to Prince. He has a place for classics too.

Joker wouldn't sully himself with such music as Prince.

Why not? What makes Prince absolutely uneligible by Joker?

 

[GothamAlleys]

Prince songs are so bad they verily fit the diabolical mode of a mass murderer:P

But Joker character isnt a diabolical mass murderer in the comics. Hes a clown i his appearance AND behavior. he has fun and acts clownish when commiting murders and crimes

I don't know, I've never seen him dance to any songs.

He did that in comics, sang while dancing too

Why does he have to be dancing at all? How often does he dance to music when doing his evil deeds? Never.

Joker#5

 

[The Joker]

It's been since the 70's but okay. If he wasn't back then but it is now, what prevents you from enjoying it today?

It sounds awful, and dates the movie terribly.

He danced and even sung in The Killing Joke.

He wasn't dancing to music. He was singing his own looney song to Gordon.

Now how many times is the Joker a face-painter? Never. Bad idea per se then?

That's subjective. There are some people, a minority for sure, but they're there that don't like that angle.

Could it possibly be that Joker was being sarcastic?

No, considering he actually believed he was improving the paintings of the museum.

I know. museums always have classical music. For a rupturist like Joker who thinks improving classic paintings is to randomly add some color to them, I'd bet that he thought Prince would be perfect for a museum.

It had nothing to do with it. He clearly liked Prince since he played him at the parade, too.

But you see that Joker doesn't only listen to Prince. He has a place for classics too.

Not the point. He played more Prince for longer periods, than he did for the two minutes he listened to that.

Why not? What makes Prince absolutely uneligible by Joker?

It just doesn't suit him at all. It'd be like The Penguin listening to rock music. Or Batman listening to Justin Bieber in the Batcave.

He did that in comics, sang while dancing too

Covered that above. He was singing and dancing to his own crazy song. Not to some musician.

Joker#5

Now that's more in line with his kind of tastes. Dancing to the classic 'There's no business like show business' tune from the 40's. Like the "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies" from the Nutcracker Suite by Tchaikovsky in 'Christmas with the Joker' in BTAS that he played.

 

[El Payaso]

It sounds awful, and dates the movie terribly.

Does it sound Joker? Because that's what counts here. You saying Prince sounds awful is like saying 'I believe that what Joker did to the paintings looked awful and in bad taste.' I mean, of course, that's the point.

Now, does it date the movie? No more than the Ray Parker Jr's "Ghostbusters" song did to the GB movie. Yeah, some movies were made in the 80's, big deal.

He wasn't dancing to music. He was singing his own looney song to Gordon.

Yes... so? You said "Why does he have to be dancing at all? How often does he dance to music when doing his evil deeds? Never." And you see that's not true.

You certainly didn't mention that the important thing was him dancing to his own songs only.

He seems to like dancing and singing once in a while. It had happened in comics.

That's subjective. There are some people, a minority for sure, but they're there that don't like that angle.

Liking/disliking Prince is as subjective. Of course there are people who didn't like the face-painting angle but was the angle wrong because it had never been done in comics? Or was it wrong according to the number of people who disliked it?

No, considering he actually believed he was improving the paintings of the museum.

And for him, to 'improve' them was to make them the opposite of what they were. Randomly throwing painting was his 'improvement.'

Maybe he thought Prince in a museum was the opposite of classical music and therefore it was equally rupturist.

It had nothing to do with it. He clearly liked Prince since he played him at the parade, too.

What can I tell ya, Prince was perfect for a parade too.

Not the point. He played more Prince for longer periods, than he did for the two minutes he listened to that.

For the two minutes *in the movie* you mean? Are we under the impression that we saw every single moment Joker listened to some music here?

Fact is, he doesn't only listen to Prince. I listen to the Ramones more than I do to Mozart, but fact is I listen to both.

It just doesn't suit him at all. It'd be like The Penguin listening to rock music. Or Batman listening to Justin Bieber in the Batcave.

If there were a point behind rock for Penguin and Bieber for Batman as there is for Prince for the Joker then I could start understanding what's behind your reasoning other than drawing a humorous comparison.

Covered that above. He was singing and dancing to his own crazy song. Not to some musician.



Now that's more in line with his kind of tastes. Dancing to the classic 'There's no business like show business' tune from the 40's. Like the "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies" from the Nutcracker Suite by Tchaikovsky in 'Christmas with the Joker' in BTAS that he played.

Mh, so Joker has to be some old-fashioned old man when it's about music taste? Why would that be?

 

[ALP]

It just doesn't suit him at all. It'd be like The Penguin listening to rock music. Or Batman listening to Justin Bieber in the Batcave.

C'mon Joker, this is really a bit ridiculous. I hope you're speaking in hyperbole.

I understand the point of not liking the Prince music. But the music was silly and daft just like the Joker character. There is absolutely no correlation between Batman and Bieber or Penguin and rock music.

 

[The Joker]

Does it sound Joker?

No, not at all.

Because that's what counts here. You saying Prince sounds awful is like saying 'I believe that what Joker did to the paintings looked awful and in bad taste.' I mean, of course, that's the point.

You mean having an opinion? Ya don't say

Now, does it date the movie? No more than the Ray Parker Jr's "Ghostbusters" song did to the GB movie. Yeah, some movies were made in the 80's, big deal.

Ghostbusters was supposed to be set in the era it was made in. Batman '89 has no time frame in that regard, even though Gotham has an old world look about it.

Which is one reason why I like Returns better. Nothing in the soundtrack dates it horribly like Prince does to Batman '89.

Yes... so? You said "Why does he have to be dancing at all? How often does he dance to music when doing his evil deeds? Never." And you see that's not true.

If you can't see the difference between him dancing on the spot to his own crazy song as opposed to him having Prince blazing out of a stereo and jigging to it, then the point is lost on you, dude.

You certainly didn't mention that the important thing was him dancing to his own songs only.

I wasn't even trying to say that. I'm saying Joker doesn't dance to the likes of Prince. He certainly doesn't play music like that from a stereo while going about his crimes.

He seems to like dancing and singing once in a while. It had happened in comics.

Once in a while? We've got one example.

Liking/disliking Prince is as subjective. Of course there are people who didn't like the face-painting angle but was the angle wrong because it had never been done in comics? Or was it wrong according to the number of people who disliked it?

You weigh it up on facts to form that opinion. Some people didn't like it purely from a visual perspective. Other said it felt out of character.

I can't tell them they're wrong for feeling that way.

And for him, to 'improve' them was to make them the opposite of what they were. Randomly throwing painting was his 'improvement.'

In his crazy mind that was an improvement.

Maybe he thought Prince in a museum was the opposite of classical music and therefore it was equally rupturist.

There's a million types of music that's the opposite to classical. He clearly just liked Prince because he used it again later, too, at the parade. It wasn't a one off use of it strictly for this crime.

What can I tell ya, Prince was perfect for a parade too.

I disagree.

For the two minutes *in the movie* you mean? Are we under the impression that we saw every single moment Joker listened to some music here?

Unless you have proof that he listened to it on more than that one occasion, yes. You can only judge based on what we were shown.

I know he liked Prince because he used it more than once. How often did you see him use classical music?

Fact is, he doesn't only listen to Prince. I listen to the Ramones more than I do to Mozart, but fact is I listen to both.

The difference is here he was playing the classical for someone elses benefit. He was trying to set a romantic tone for Vicki in order to woo her. The candles, the music, the soft lighting etc.

If there were a point behind rock for Penguin and Bieber for Batman as there is for Prince for the Joker then I could start understanding what's behind your reasoning other than drawing a humorous comparison.

Can you fathom a reason why Batman or Penguin would willingly listen to such music while engaging in their activities?

Mh, so Joker has to be some old-fashioned old man when it's about music taste? Why would that be?

You tell me. The only taste in music we've seen from Joker outside this movie is classical. Could it be that he has a taste for good music? Or maybe he likes to use it in some kind of perverted way when doing his evil deeds. This lovely classical piece playing while he's doing atrocious things.

 

[The Joker]

C'mon Joker, this is really a bit ridiculous. I hope you're speaking in hyperbole.

Nope. Deadly serious.

I understand the point of not liking the Prince music. But the music was silly and daft just like the Joker character. There is absolutely no correlation between Batman and Bieber or Penguin and rock music.

You saw Joker as silly and daft in the movie? Destroying a museum's priceless artwork wasn't silly and daft. It was psychotic.

 

[Fudgie]

The Prince music was one of the worst aspects of the flick. It was so anti Joker. It just helped make Nicholsons Joker look like a buffoon.

 

[RustyCage]

I thought the Prince music (despite me not being a fan) was one of the few things that kept me awake during the movie. It's rather boring to me (compared to Returns), but that stuff injected some twisted fun in.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

But Joker character isnt a diabolical mass murderer in the comics. Hes a clown i his appearance AND behavior. he has fun and acts clownish when commiting murders and crimes

He is in the movie, that's a fit

 

[Smalley]

I thought the Prince music (despite me not being a fan) was one of the few things that kept me awake during the movie. It's rather boring to me (compared to Returns), but that stuff injected some twisted fun in.

And that's pretty much exactly why I find Returns to be far superior; I just can't imagine anyone liking '89 better with how dull it really is as a film...

 

[Brother Jack]

The Prince music dates the film very badly (as well as some other stuff), which is a shame because Burton tried so hard to make his Gotham feel timeless. It's something Returns doesn't have much of a problem with, and one of the reasons why I think it's a better film.

 

[Smalley]

The Prince music dates the film very badly (as well as some other stuff), which is a shame because Burton tried so hard to make his Gotham feel timeless. It's something Returns doesn't have much of a problem with, and one of the reasons why I think it's a better film.

More than that, I can't think of a single concrete thing that really dates Batman Returns to having been made back in '92, that ties it to that year in any way. So yes, that is a good part of why it's the better film than '89

 

[ALP]

Nope. Deadly serious.

You saw Joker as silly and daft in the movie? Destroying a museum's priceless artwork wasn't silly and daft. It was psychotic.

Yeah, you're just thinking in a different manner of silly and daft. When I say silly I mean things like throwing a parade and when I say daft I mean bizarre and crazy like covering his face and yelling "I'm melting."

In fact he's quoting Wizard of Oz, a film from the 30s. And notice the only painting he stops from being defaced is Francis Bacon's "Figure with Meat," a rather recent painting and Francis Bacon was alive and painting when B'89 was made. Coincidence or no? Because this goes along with the idea of him being a purveyor of pop culture so listening to the modern Prince fits in a way. Am I saying dancing to Prince was a good decision? No because it does date the film but I think a reason can be argued for it.

And that's pretty much exactly why I find Returns to be far superior; I just can't imagine anyone liking '89 better with how dull it really is as a film...

I do not like B'89 better, but I think it a wonderful film. Definitely not boring. I still love Jack but I have gained an all new appreciation for Michael Keaton. His performance was mesmerizing and I only wish he were in more of BR. Looking back I personally feel Jack is but the icing on the cake. It's Keaton's Wayne/Batman that add the strongest dynamic. Keaton was just very silent and not flamboyant and silly like in Beetlejuice so I think he gets overlooked. I feel like I appreciate the film more now that I have hit such a ripe old age(will begin funeral plans when I turn 20)

More than that, I can't think of a single concrete thing that really dates Batman Returns to having been made back in '92, that ties it to that year in any way. So yes, that is a good part of why it's the better film than '89

You're not looking hard enough! Some of the technology dates the films as well. There is one thing in particular that stands out to me in BR and it is the television that Wayne is looking at. It's a large big boxy tv, the kind that absolutely no one uses anymore. And it's not at all an antique type thing, it's just an outdated invention. But it's nothing big like in B'89. Like in B'89, Vale uses one of those ugly clunky phones from the 80s.

You can tell Burton did his best to make BR timeless, you don't even see much modern technology in the film at all. I can't even remember seeing many cars in BR. Just when Selina is driving to the center of the city and at the end when Alfred is driving Bruce. And in both instances, it looks like antique cars are being used. On the other hand, in B'89 there's a ton of old 70s/80s cars everywhere such as the ones Joker's goons use.

 

[Smalley]

You're not looking hard enough! Some of the technology dates the films as well. There is one thing in particular that stands out to me in BR and it is the television that Wayne is looking at. It's a large big boxy tv, the kind that absolutely no one uses anymore. And it's not at all an antique type thing, it's just an outdated invention. But it's nothing big like in B'89. Like in B'89, Vale uses one of those ugly clunky phones from the 80s.

You can tell Burton did his best to make BR timeless, you don't even see much modern technology in the film at all. I can't even remember seeing many cars in BR. Just when Selina is driving to the center of the city and at the end when Alfred is driving Bruce. And in both instances, it looks like antique cars are being used. On the other hand, in B'89 there's a ton of old 70s/80s cars everywhere such as the ones Joker's goons use.

Wayne's TV does look pretty dated in its large boxy-ness by today's standards (especially considering Wayne's supposed to be a millionaire), but I don't think it especially sticks out as dating the film to '92; it is all black, and pretty stylish-looking, and worked and fit in perfectly for an early 90's film. I never even noticed its mild outdated-ness until you just brought it up While, on the other hand, '89's Prince music blatantly and painfully dated that film to its decade of release.

 

[Cain]

I fail to see why it even matters though. It's fact that the movie was shot in 1988. It's a fact that Prince was a big artist at the time. It's a fact that they wanted to exploit merchandising in every way possible. It doesn't make me enjoy the movie any less.

Not just because I actually enjoy the Prince songs either. Just like the 1960's aesthetics & pop culture figures don't make me enjoy the live action TV series any less than I actually do. At the end of the day yes it dates it's product but guess what? lots of flicks will always be dated yet that doesn't in anyway affect it's level of enjoyment. Flicks like The Goonies and The Lost Boys with their 80's look and music come to mind as examples.

I'd say the one thing that makes me prefer Returns to '89 is the way themes that became linchpins of modern Batman mythology were handled. Duality, trauma, a romance that could never be etc. I think the latter did that much better and effectively than the former. Doesn't mean I don't like '89 at all though just that I prefer BR to it for those reasons. One seeming more dated than the other doesn't affect how they entertain me so I just don't see the sense in that debate truthfully.

 

[Smalley]

I guess it does matter to me, because something being obviously dated gets on my nerves; it's the reason why I don't watch the original Star Trek show anymore, and choose the follow-ups. I'm not hating on old works of media at all, I love some of 'em, but if they're annoyingly dated in some way, then, well...

 

[Elevator Man]

I guess it does matter to me, because something being obviously dated gets on my nerves; it's the reason why I don't watch the original Star Trek show anymore, and choose the follow-ups. I'm not hating on old works of media at all, I love some of 'em, but if they're annoyingly dated in some way, then, well...

Then well you need to grow up. Heres a reality check for you everything and everybody ages. That's life. The movies that are out now will be dated 10 years (and maybe sooner) from now. Technology, food, animals,etc.,etc.,etc.etc,efreakintc. You should stop watching movies period if you have this problem. B/c guess what ? Movies like TDK, for example, will age. Everybody and thing ages including you and me that's a part of life. So get over it.

Oh and the Prince songs never bothered me at all. I could care less about Prince's music outside of B89, btw.

 

[ALP]

Then well you need to grow up. Heres a reality check for you everything and everybody ages. That's life. The movies that are out now will be dated 10 years (and maybe sooner) from now. Technology, food, animals,etc.,etc.,etc.etc,efreakintc. You should stop watching movies period if you have this problem. B/c guess what ? Movies like TDK, for example, will age. Everybody and thing ages including you and me that's a part of life. So get over it.

Oh and the Prince songs never bothered me at all. I could care less about Prince's music outside of B89, btw.

You do realize that factor is a reason why numerous films are re-made? You're telling someone they should stop watching movies if they don't like that certain ones are dated yet that is why the movie makers do exactly what they do. Guillermo Del Toro is writing and producing the remake of "Don't Be Afraid of the Dark" because he said he loved the original as a kid but felt it was very out-dated and could use a modernization. Are you so daft you think a brilliant filmmaker like Del Toro also needs to "grow up" and "get over it" because he's remaking a film he thinks is outdated?

Some of us just love timeless films. The '31 rendition of Dracula I feel is incredibly out-dated, so much that I cannot enjoy the overall product. It has a nice atmosphere and a great Dracula(Lugosi remains my favorite) but because of the censors at the time, the film lacks far too many elements to be a good Dracula film. On the other hand, the '57 rendition of Dracula starring Christopher Lee and our very own Michael Gough holds up incredibly well. The effects are still brilliant, the cinematography gorgeous, and the story is paced well unlike the 30s version. Wizard of Oz from '39 is another film I absolutely love for the same reasons, it still looks gorgeous to this very day. It holds up well and has a nice timeless quality to it. And to not go too much further, there are also films that serve as pop culture vessels. They are dated and work perfectly that way such as The Goonies and The Lost Boys as Cain mentioned.

But to criticize someone and suggest they should stop watching films for saying they don't like certain things that out-date films is just flat out stupid. Especially when you don't even know their full reasons(I've just explained mine).

 

[Travesty]

You can tell Burton did his best to make BR timeless, you don't even see much modern technology in the film at all. I can't even remember seeing many cars in BR. Just when Selina is driving to the center of the city and at the end when Alfred is driving Bruce. And in both instances, it looks like antique cars are being used. On the other hand, in B'89 there's a ton of old 70s/80s cars everywhere such as the ones Joker's goons use.

In BR, there was really only 4 cars they used: The Batmobile, cop cars, Alfred's Rolls, and than EVERY regular car was this model, just painted in different variations...even the Taxis. That is one thing that bugged the **** out of me, was the same model car.

As for the big 80's phone, what scene do we see Vicki use it? I don't remember her ever using a cellphone.

 

[Travesty]

I'm actually watching BR right now, and I have the commentary on, and I can't stand listening to Burton talk. The guy says "ya know" every two seconds, ya know?

 

[ALP]

In BR, there was really only 4 cars they used: The Batmobile, cop cars, Alfred's Rolls, and than EVERY regular car was this model, just painted in different variations...even the Taxis. That is one thing that bugged the **** out of me, was the same model car.

Wow I did not notice that. Was there a reason for it and was that also the car Selina was driving?

As for the big 80's phone, what scene do we see Vicki use it? I don't remember her ever using a cellphone.

I thought for sure it was one of those old cellphones she was using. But taking a look at the scene where she's talking to Knox it's just a normal rotary phone she's using. Hmm, guess I was imaging an old cell... or mistaking it for that one. If so my mistake!