The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread

[COMPO]

yeah it would be cool if he started out trying to find out Batman's secret and then decided he didn't want to know, he'd rather show he's smarter than Batman than reveal who Batman is.

 

[Rodrigo90]

At the moment,Im kindda jumping between his characterizations. Im putting paper to typewriter,then throwing it away after a few lines,lol.

If you make Riddler a challenger,then what business does he have in trying to discover Batmans identity? Its just about him challenging Batman because he has finally found a worthy opponent,then doesnt like it when Batman proves he is smarter than him.

Now. If you make him a Detective,a P.I. or a Fed,then ultimately that will boil down to him using those skills to discover Batman's identity.

Personally. I feel it would be a nice mirror to Batman,if Riddler WASNT a guy with any detective skills background,not a cop or a fed. Batman had no skills as a detective,but he learned him. It would be good if Riddler was the only man who discovered Batmans identity,with no skills a det. or anything,when others who are cant.

Time to start a fresh story,lol.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I just don't want The Riddler's part to have to do with Batman's identity at all. That was already done, and it takes away all the other fascinating things about his character that we havn't seen on screen. The Riddler should have a completely different objective. The Riddler should challenge Batman and the GPD to the limit. Placing people in death traps and using twisted riddles to keep the GPD from figuring out his true intentions. Making Batman to seem more like a villain by framing him. Maybe even reveal that Gordon is secretly helping Batman and get him fired. Don't forget about the second villain and the mob. Some kind of way The Riddler's story has to be connected to them. Maybe The Riddler will use them all just to get what he want's. Maybe his true intentions will remain a mystery.

 

[RetroNaz]

At the moment,Im kindda jumping between his characterizations. Im putting paper to typewriter,then throwing it away after a few lines,lol.

If you make Riddler a challenger,then what business does he have in trying to discover Batmans identity? Its just about him challenging Batman because he has finally found a worthy opponent,then doesnt like it when Batman proves he is smarter than him.

Now. If you make him a Detective,a P.I. or a Fed,then ultimately that will boil down to him using those skills to discover Batman's identity.

Personally. I feel it would be a nice mirror to Batman,if Riddler WASNT a guy with any detective skills background,not a cop or a fed. Batman had no skills as a detective,but he learned him. It would be good if Riddler was the only man who discovered Batmans identity,with no skills a det. or anything,when others who are cant.

Time to start a fresh story,lol.

IMO Riddler shouldn't mirror Batman at all. Similar to the Joker, he is an anomaly who shouldn't have any major backstory or be interested in finding out who Batman really is (since that storyline was played out in TDK). I'd save the mirrored character for Black Mask if they choose to use him.

Depending on where they go with the Riddler, he is obsessive/compulsive in wanting to be the smartest criminal in the world. He's so damn good at what he does, the only evidence that it's him doing the killings is the riddles he leaves.

In doing so, they get closer and closer to finding out who he really is. And that's his weakness. He can't help but GIVE away who he is, by slowly laying out clues for people to solve. He WANTS batman to figure out who he is.

 

[regwec]

I just don't want The Riddler's part to have to do with Batman's identity at all. That was already done,

I half agree. It has been explored, but it is a thread that is difficult to ignore, once it has been woven. I would argue Reese now has to be a significant figure in part III, whether he is involved with the Riddler or they are one and the same.

In fact, I would argue that Reese's story in TDK mirrored some versions of the Riddler's origins closely enough that it would now be very difficult to have a Riddler who was unconnected to Reese.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Heres another interpretation.

Edward is by the start a newly transferred Detective from NYC. Hired following Wurtez's demise. Edward is also harbouring a dark secret. He is a sadistic serial killer,who uses the name 'Riddler' as his alias. He creates complex challenges and puzzles for his targets,who are criminals he is hunting,but are at times his fellow colleagues who he see's as 'competitors'. So he challenges criminals and cops.

Wurtez was at the time trying to deduct Batman's identity,so Edward has now taking upon himself to hunt and challenge Batman. However, with the entire city hunting Batman, Citizens, Cops, and Feds, Edward cant help but see everybody as his competitors...and that means danger for all of Gotham City. Nobody will deny him the challenge of Batman.

 

[regwec]

I don't understand why it is popular to reinvent the Riddler as a sadist or a murderer. I can't recall any instance where that has been shown to be the case. Surely part of the character's appeal, and what sets him apart, is that he is more cerebral and less willing to indulge in the more sanguine elements of the supervillain lifestlye as demonstrated by The Joker, Zsasz, Black Mask, Cornelius Stirk etc?

Admittedly, this gives the Riddler of Batman III a potential "threat deficit" when set against The Joker of TDK, but this is surely a case for careful story telling rather than skewing characterisation?

 

[Rodrigo90]

I didnt mean a literal serial killer. I mean what it is in traps,if youre smart and complete them,you win. What Im doing in this case. Edward is The Riddler,but he doesnt deliberately set out to kill who he is hunting. He puts his criminal targets through traps as Riddler and if they survive,he arrests them as Edward. The Police who he see's as competitors,he puts them through challenges,not traps.

But he is sadistic. Look what he did with the Baby.

 

[RetroNaz]

I don't understand why it is popular to reinvent the Riddler as a sadist or a murderer. I can't recall any instance where that has been shown to be the case. Surely part of the character's appeal, and what sets him apart, is that he is more cerebral and less willing to indulge in the more sanguine elements of the supervillain lifestlye as demonstrated by The Joker, Zsasz, Black Mask, Cornelius Stirk etc?

Admittedly, this gives the Riddler of Batman III a potential "threat deficit" when set against The Joker of TDK, but this is surely a case for careful story telling rather than skewing characterisation?

It started when we first come up with ideas that it'd be cool to see him along the lines of a cold and calculated John Doe from the movie 7ven and Keyser Soze from the Usual Suspects.

Basically we were giving him a modern day reimage so that he IS more than just a cerebral threat, which might not be so interesting to audiences these days.

Not after we just had the Joker run total rough shod in TDK (like you pointed out).

But I'm open to any idea really. It's fun discussing what might be!

 

[Ekricket]

I think you're right Compo.

And honestly, the whole finding out Batman's secret id has been done to death.

Schumacher's batman films did it with his Riddler.

It's a puzzle, a mystery, Gothams greatest question - Who is Batman? Riddler can't help himself, he has to know the answer to every puzzle and mystery - he is compelled to solve this.

He knows Batman is not an alien from outer space or a mutation, he knows he is just a man, and no man can devise a puzzle (Batman's identity) that the Riddler can't solve. He's OCD, and he just has to do this, and it does not matter if you don't want him to, or if he doesn't want to - the mental illness leaves him no choice.

 

[RetroNaz]

It's a puzzle, a mystery, Gothams greatest question - Who is Batman? Riddler can't help himself, he has to know the answer to every puzzle and mystery - he is compelled to solve this.

He knows Batman is not an alien from outer space or a mutation, he knows he is just a man, and no man can devise a puzzle (Batman's identity) that the Riddler can't solve. He's OCD, and he just has to do this, and it does not matter if you don't want him to, or if he doesn't want to - the mental illness leaves him no choice.

Gothams greatest question should be what happened to the public transport that Wayne Enterprises provided

He should answer that riddle.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well, you can actually see it in the establishing shot behind Bruce's Penthouse during the fundraiser scene.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I don't understand why it is popular to reinvent the Riddler as a sadist or a murderer. I can't recall any instance where that has been shown to be the case. Surely part of the character's appeal, and what sets him apart, is that he is more cerebral and less willing to indulge in the more sanguine elements of the supervillain lifestlye as demonstrated by The Joker, Zsasz, Black Mask, Cornelius Stirk etc?

Admittedly, this gives the Riddler of Batman III a potential "threat deficit" when set against The Joker of TDK, but this is surely a case for careful story telling rather than skewing characterisation?

I can

Also, as for Batman's identity being the "greatest riddle of all", it's not. If The Riddler really wanted to know, he could find out who he is. The "greatest riddle" is the one that will result in Batman's death...The Riddler was never interested in Batman's identity to begin with. Schumaker tainted the character so much and people don't know much about The Riddler's history. I'm sure Nolan will get back the dark elements of The Riddler.

 

[Marx]

I just don't want The Riddler's part to have to do with Batman's identity at all. That was already done, and it takes away all the other fascinating things about his character that we havn't seen on screen. The Riddler should have a completely different objective. The Riddler should challenge Batman and the GPD to the limit. Placing people in death traps and using twisted riddles to keep the GPD from figuring out his true intentions. Making Batman to seem more like a villain by framing him. Maybe even reveal that Gordon is secretly helping Batman and get him fired. Don't forget about the second villain and the mob. Some kind of way The Riddler's story has to be connected to them. Maybe The Riddler will use them all just to get what he want's. Maybe his true intentions will remain a mystery.

That was also already done...by Penguin and Catwoman in 'Batman Returns'.

 

[Mindreaper21]

That was also already done...by Penguin and Catwoman in 'Batman Returns'.

I'm just throwing other ideas out there. The framing doesn't have to be done the same way. Two-Face robbed a bank in "Forever" and Joker in "TDK". It all depends on how you tell the story. I don't want The Riddler to do what he has done in "Forever".

 

[COMPO]

2bh I've had this idea for a while and it kind of goes with Two-Face coming back basically, the Riddler is working for Two Face whom is using Penguin to take control of the mob and maniplate a gang war so that the mob will kill each other in the process meanwhile he has Nygma find and kidnap Reese to lure Batman from his mob plans unfortunately Riddler can't help but leave riddles for the Batman telling him what's going on and Two-Face find out and beats Riddler to a pulp, but the Riddler returns with him still having Reese holding him hostage after Batman as calmed the gang war and stopped Two-Face. Putting him in a trap he has Batman try and solve riddles to save him.

 

[regwec]

I can

Also, as for Batman's identity being the "greatest riddle of all", it's not. If The Riddler really wanted to know, he could find out who he is. The "greatest riddle" is the one that will result in Batman's death...The Riddler was never interested in Batman's identity to begin with. Schumaker tainted the character so much and people don't know much about The Riddler's history. I'm sure Nolan will get back the dark elements of The Riddler.

Thanks. I balance this against the bulk of Riddler stories, though, where his death traps were more in the vain of moustache-twirling villainy than genuine sadism. I would argue that the business with the baby is somewhat out of character, though I admit that is picking and choosing.

I do maintain that there are some dvantages in keeping The Riddler quite distinct from The Joker, though. I remain keen on my concept of him being out of his depth and his comfort zone as a costumed villain.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Make Riddler something like The Hurt Locker. Random people that just go into a supermarket fall prey to his traps,like a hunt around the place to find a bomb by finding and solving riddles.

 

[ronny]

Riddler shouldn't target the rich. Make him a different villain, make him deliberately go after the underclass, the workers, the commoners.
He's a man who desperately wants to humiliate the weak and ignorant. So it makes more sense that he'd attack ordinary folks rather than the rich and powerful.

 

[kid dropper]

I can

Also, as for Batman's identity being the "greatest riddle of all", it's not. If The Riddler really wanted to know, he could find out who he is. The "greatest riddle" is the one that will result in Batman's death...The Riddler was never interested in Batman's identity to begin with. Schumaker tainted the character so much and people don't know much about The Riddler's history. I'm sure Nolan will get back the dark elements of The Riddler.

Yeh, well these are excerpted from "Dark Knight/ Dark City" (which is an awesome forgotten arc by the way) but the thing is , the Riddler only became so murderous because he was possesed by an ancient demon. Thats why hes never been at that kind of level of evil , before or since. I mean he far exceeded Joker in sick bastard-hood, that along made the story worth reading.

 

[regwec]

Aha, that explains all. I will have to track down some of these stories. I seem to have few comics featuring the Riddler, probably because he didn't appeal to me much as a tot.

 

[itsthebatman]

There's no point just reinventing the Riddler as Joker-lite: let's see something different. One of my favourite Riddler stories is from the 'Four of a Kind' collection, his (sigh) origin story - not a killer, not a sadist, just a very clever robber who has Batman running around in circles. The main problem with having Riddler as a villain is tha t the threat level is downgraded - has he ever paralysed Gotham, as Ra's and Joker have done in the last two movies?

 

[regwec]

Hey, Paddy's back!

 

[itsthebatman]

Hey. Indeed I am. How are ya? It's been busy.
On-topic, what do you think? Riddler enough of a threat to be the main villain in 'Gotham'?

 

[regwec]

I'm good, and my liver is a lot better too!

Riddler can be the cause of a TDK sized threat, but not its architect. I see him as a recreational antagonist for Batman who gets out of his depth and becomes a victim of his own success. He is not cut out to share a stage with the likes of Mr Zsasz and The Joker.