Riots in Missouri - Part 2

[The Question]

The same thing could be said for your comments. Whatever your personal beliefs, trying to claim that whites monopolize all historic incidences of oppression, racism, discrimination and prejudice is not only historically inaccurate but is completely counter-productive in facilitating any conversation where a modicum of sympathy or consideration for different races' viewpoints.

Judging by your comments you're a pretty massive racist. Everything I've seen has you painting whites as the start and end of all the evils in the world, and when people address that you play the flabbergasted and exasperated card like they told you dividing by 0 is possible after all.

Even if your assessment is accurate, who cares? There is no systemic oppressive racism against white people in America, so even if his assessment of historical racial dynamics is not 100% accurate, who gives a damn?

That doesn't include reverse racism where a system is put in place to promote the hiring, admittance, advancement, etc. of minoritites based not on academics, experience, etc. but on skin color.

There is no such thing as reverse racism and there's nothing wring with affirmative action. Outside of a handful of isolated incidents, affirmative action does not lead to less qualified people getting jobs. The assumption that giving preferential treatment to minorities will inevitably lead to less qualified people getting hired or promoted betrays a bias on your part.

 

[chamber-music]

I find 'who had it worst' debates pointless. Oppression shouldn't being a measuring contest. We should acknowledge that people are being oppressed/suffering from prejudice and try to stop it from happening.

 

[The Question]

I find who had it worst debates pointless. Oppression shouldn't being a measuring contest. We should acknowledge that people are being oppressed/suffering from prejudice and try to stop it from happening.

Well, a few things…

1: Past oppression is still relevant today. Slavery created an economic and social environment that had aftereffects that the modern American black community is still feeling.

2: While there are people of all types who experience various kinds of oppression for various reasons, the inverse is also true, and keeping stock of one's privileges in any given environment or interaction is useful.

 

[DeadPresident]

Even if your assessment is accurate, who cares? There is no systemic oppressive racism against white people in America, so even if his assessment of historical racial dynamics is not 100% accurate, who gives a damn?

If by "100% accurate" you mean not accurate at all, then yeah. "Who gives a damn"? I'm asking him how his contributions are constructive. Because so far instead of trying to see things from each others' perspectives this thread has been "All whites are X" and "All blacks are Y".

Any conflict only gets solved through co-operation. This guy's views are quite common. So if a bunch of people are standing on soap boxes trying to undermine any white's personal grievances with "Yeah, but other people have it worse!" how does that foster the communication necessary to stop the structural oppression present in America?

For any kind of solution at some stage he might want to understand that respecting everyone's life events is necessary, even if they share the same icky skin color as the oppressors. But hey, maybe shouting about how whites are intrinsically racist will get the whites in power to change their behaviour, right?

 

[SuperT]

The Question gets it.

The same thing could be said for your comments. Whatever your personal beliefs, trying to claim that whites monopolize all historic incidences of oppression, racism, discrimination and prejudice...

Uhm, but whites have monopolized instances of systemic oppression, racism, discrimination and prejudice here within the United States, which is the issue we're discussing here. There's nothing that disputes that at all. There is absolutely no system that was put in place hundreds of years ago that actively works against the success and achievement of caucasian people. None, nada, zip, zilch - so the idea of "Reverse Racism" is absolutely absurd.

Nothing in that statement I just made, nor any statement I've said in this entire thread, says that ALL white people are racist. Absolutely none.

Judging by your comments you're a pretty massive racist.

Really?!

 

[Howlett]

Even if your assessment is accurate, who cares? There is no systemic oppressive racism against white people in America, so even if his assessment of historical racial dynamics is not 100% accurate, who gives a damn?

I think this is what most people are responding to.

Please tell me when caucasian people have EVER experienced oppression and racism.

I'll wait...

Then after several people responded with examples, he backpedaled and changed his argument to, "well, I'm talking about in America..." When clearly he was not just speaking about America before.

 

[regwec]

I find 'who had it worst' debates pointless. Oppression shouldn't being a measuring contest. We should acknowledge that people are being oppressed/suffering from prejudice and try to stop it from happening.

You're right, but left wing political thought rests heavily on the perception of a hierarchy of victimhood. This allows all human hardship to be simplified into a basic moralistic equation of the bad powerful and the good weak.

It's absurd to claim that no white peoples have ever been oppressed, but if believed such a claim usefully excludes white people in general from the hierarchy of victimhood altogether.

 

[DeadPresident]

The Question gets it.

Of course you'll say that, he's flying in to defend you

Uhm, but whites have monopolized instances of systemic oppression, racism, discrimination and prejudice here within the United States, which is the issue we're discussing here. There's nothing that disputes that at all.

The problem is you don't find it problematic to throw the term "whites" do "X,Y,Z" around like whites are some kind of homogenous, monolithic entity.

I'm assuming you'd find it problematic if somebody made claims about "blacks being/doing [Insert random bad thing here]"?

All I'm saying is, how are you helping the situation? If this thread is for people to come and vent in and just be angry at white people then I apologize for interrupting. I was under the impression discussing important social issues had the objective of progress in mind, not going around in a circle.

 

[The Question]

I think this is what most people are responding to.

Then after several people responded with examples, he backpedaled and changed his argument to, "well, I'm talking about in America..." When clearly he was not just speaking about America before.

I think he was talking about Caucasian people as a group. There has never been a point where being white was a liability in this or any society. There are sub-groups of caucasions who have been oppressed, but for different reasons (being foreign, belonging to a minority religion, being gay, etc.), but they weren't oppressed for being white, and their whiteness offered them privileges and made the oppression they faced less harsh than other similarly different individuals who were non-white.

 

[DeadPresident]

I think this is what most people are responding to.

Then after several people responded with examples, he backpedaled and changed his argument to, "well, I'm talking about in America..." When clearly he was not just speaking about America before.

Howlett gets it.

 

[DeadPresident]

I think he was talking about Caucasian people as a group. There has never been a point where being white was a liability in this or any society. There are sub-groups of caucasions who have been oppressed, but for different reasons (being foreign, belonging to a minority religion, being gay, etc.), but they weren't oppressed for being white, and their whiteness offered them privileges and made the oppression they faced less harsh than other similarly different individuals who were non-white.

I'd use the example of farm murders in Zimbabwe or South Africa as an example, but I imagine you'll say they all deserve it.

 

[SuperT]

I think he was talking about Caucasian people as a group. There has never been a point where being white was a liability in this or any society. There are sub-groups of caucasions who have been oppressed, but for different reasons (being foreign, belonging to a minority religion, being gay, etc.), but they weren't oppressed for being white, and their whiteness offered them privileges and made the oppression they faced less harsh than other similarly different individuals who were non-white.

Bingo. You summed it up perfectly - at the end of the day their whiteness was never a liability nor used as a reason to persecute them. Explaining and getting people to understand the idea of privilege will go a long way in these types of discussions.

 

[The Question]

I'd use the example of farm murders in Zimbabwe or South Africa as an example, but I imagine you'll say they all deserve it.

No, I'll say that they weren't systemic or part of a larger institutionalized trend. Yes, it is possible for an individual black person to be motivated to murder and individual white person out of irrational racial hatred, and sure there have been instances of that in the past, but that's not the same thing as oppression. Oppression is systemic. Oppression is how a dominant group mistreats a subordinate group.

 

[regwec]

Zanu PF's seizure of white-owned property certainly was systematic. It was government policy.

 

[SuperT]

Yes, it is possible for an individual black person to be motivated to murder and individual white person out of irrational racial hatred, and sure there have been instances of that in the past, but that's not the same thing as oppression.

And I agree with this wholeheartedly - African-Americans and other minorities can/and do harm caucasian citizens out of some racial based hatred or disgust, it's not right at all but that is not "reverse racism" or whatever people are calling it.

 

[Victarion]

I find 'who had it worst' debates pointless. Oppression shouldn't being a measuring contest. We should acknowledge that people are being oppressed/suffering from prejudice and try to stop it from happening.

Isn't that called the something or another Olympics?

 

[Destructus86]

Racism isn't a whites only club. Racism is everywhere and it always will be. Go to Japan as a white guy for a day and you will see plenty of racism. Or look at the violent racism in middle eastern countries that has existed for centuries. Or look at the racism blacks have again whites (a popular topic in rap music) or whites against blacks.

Racism is a worldwide disease. Trying to remove racism isn't the answer...it can't be cured or destroyed because it's embedded in the heart. What we need to do is focus on correcting our completely screwed up education AND justice systems as well as a complete overhaul of law enforcement. Better standards, more accountability.

 

[DeadPresident]

No, I'll say that they weren't systemic or part of a larger institutionalized trend. Yes, it is possible for an individual black person to be motivated to murder and individual white person out of irrational racial hatred, and sure there have been instances of that in the past, but that's not the same thing as oppression. Oppression is systemic. Oppression is how a dominant group mistreats a subordinate group.

You and Super T keep changing semantic aspects of your arguments as I address them specifically as you've written them.

First he says "No whites have been oppressed EVER", then when examples are provided he changes it to "No whites in AMERICA have been oppressed due to their SKIN COLOR".

I address your assertion that

being white was a liability in this or any society

and you change it to oppression meaning only when its a dominant group over a subordinate one. I started copying the links to tabs that would address that too, but I imagine you two will just specify another box that doesn't tick, so why bother. I'm glad we've made this progress though, good luck

 

[cronosred]

Racism isn't a whites only club. Racism is everywhere and it always will be. Go to Japan as a white guy for a day and you will see plenty of racism. Or look at the violent racism in middle eastern countries that has existed for centuries. Or look at the racism blacks have again whites (a popular topic in rap music) or whites against blacks.

Racism is a worldwide disease. Trying to remove racism isn't the answer...it can't be cured or destroyed because it's embedded in the heart. What we need to do is focus on correcting our completely screwed up education AND justice systems as well as a complete overhaul of law enforcement. Better standards, more accountability.

But if people admitted that they wouldn't be able to keep justifying their own bigotries.

 

[DeadPresident]

Zanu PF's seizure of white-owned property certainly was systematic. It was government policy.

No, no, no regwec. That was a single individual, Robert Mugabe, who was motivated by personal racial hatred. No whites were systematically oppressed in any way shape or form. As this topic has unequivocally determined, no whites are ever oppressed. You would do well to remember that. Besides, they all deserve it. Those whites started it after all.

 

[Feenix]

It seems some people in this thread love to paint a certain race with a large, single brushstroke, but would lose their minds if their own race was painted with the same brush.

Also, holding the younger generations accountable for the sins of their ancestors is not only stupid, but regressive.

 

[The Question]

You and Super T keep changing semantic aspects of your arguments as I address them specifically as you've written them.

Otherwise known as "clarifying our meaning."

First he says "No whites have been oppressed EVER", then when examples are provided he changes it to "No whites in AMERICA have been oppressed due to their SKIN COLOR".

So he clarified what he meant when people misunderstood him and starting arguing against points he wasn't making. That is a good thing.

Also, why would white people being oppressed for reasons besides their skin color be relevant beyond a pedantic semantic argument?

I address your assertion that and you change it to oppression meaning only when its a dominant group over a subordinate one.

That's what oppression is.

I started copying the links to tabs that would address that too, but I imagine you two will just specify another box that doesn't tick, so why bother. I'm glad we've made this progress though, good luck

Or, you could actually have an exchange of ideas instead of getting hung up on a semantic miscommunication.

 

[SuperT]

Go to Japan as a white guy for a day and you will see plenty of racism.

You're kidding, right? Caucasians standards of beauty are praised there as well as many other countries across Asia. Why do you think there's been such a huge epidemic with plastic surgery amongst women, and some men, within their country and culture(s)?

Or look at the violent racism in middle eastern countries that has existed for centuries.

A majority of oppression within the Middle East is not based on skintone but on religion and the huge gap in beliefs between many modern and fundamental/traditional religions.

Or look at the racism blacks have again whites (a popular topic in rap music) or whites against blacks.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

It seems some people in this thread love to paint a certain race with a large, single brushstroke, but would lose their minds if their own race was painted with the same brush.

Also, holding the younger generations accountable for the sins of their ancestors is not only stupid, but regressive.

That's silly. The younger generation lives in the wake of what their ancestors did. Everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions to some degree.

 

[cronosred]

That's silly. The younger generation lives in the wake of what their ancestors did. Everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions to some degree.

Because everyone who lives in America now had ancestors who lived in America during that time.