Robin or no Robin?

Discussion in 'The Batman' started by Silvermoth, Feb 14, 2013.

?

Which Robin would you like?

  1. No Robin

  2. Dick Grayson

  3. Jason Todd

  4. Tim Drake

  5. Stephanie Brown

  6. Damian Wayne

  7. I don't know

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    I can't stand Batgirl. A rubbish character. Oracle works way better then having her become Commissioner when Bruce is in his later years and her father isn't around anymore.
     
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  2. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    Is it just the idea of a relatively young female wearing the Bat that annoys you, or Barbara specifically?
     
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  3. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    I like Barbara. It's the idea of a young female in a suit, specifically called Batgirl. That's why i like her as Oracle.
     
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  4. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    Well that makes sense, I was gonna say if it was Barbara that annoyed you, Cassandra (a League trained assassin) might have been more up your alley. Because it never made sense to me that Babs would last for long as Batgirl.
     
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  5. BLobo

    BLobo Well-Known Member

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    Why? Celebrities spend most of their money having fun, wich seems way more stupid and selfish than spending money actually helping people, wich is what Batman does.

    The idea of a dark and brutal man obsessed with fighting crime and protecting people, accepting to have a teenagers dressed in a colorful outfit fighting crime alongside him is stupid and goes against what the character of Batman is supposed to be.

    The only reason Robin was created was to attract younger readers. It´s not like the creaters thought "well, lets creat this character because it actually makes sense".
     
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  6. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    And that's why i can enjoy the Burton movies, Nolan movies, and earlier episodes of BTAS more than anything else where there's a bat-family involved. Or even comics that don't have Batman fighting with Robin by his side.

    I even remember as a kid, seeing Batman Forever for the first time. Ive grown to like some of the origin stuff for Grayson in that movie, but at the time, i was like 7, and it just felt off to me. I got used to Kilmer pretty fast as Bruce Wayne but the Robin stuff wasn't my cup of tea.

    If i read a comic with Batgirl, Robin (Damien, Dick, Tim, Jason, whoever) it just sets something off in me. I just dont care about seeing kids being superheroes. There's a weird or corny vibe i get.

    I just heard that there's a new sidekick for Batman in the comics, Bluebird or something? I dont even care about reading that.
     
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  7. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    Bruce Wayne is not a regular celebrity, he's not an athlete, he's not a singer, he's (as Bruce Wayne) a talentless man who fell into a fortune his family built. His family was then killed in front of him. How many celebrities does that happen to?

    Bruce Wayne is supposed to care, otherwise why be Batman? Bill Gates has saved the lives of thousands, tried to eliminate diseases as well as donated hundreds of millions of dollars to education.

    It doesn't make sense that Bruce Wayne would stand idly by if he really cared. It's stupid to think he wouldn't make the top this list:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/randall...thropists-who-have-given-away-the-most-money/

    The gap even between the first two and others is plenty of room for Bruce Wayne to fit in.

    Batman's character is an immature short-sighted man who tries to punch every criminal in a city because he never got over the death of his parents. Recruiting impressionable teenagers seems par for the course.

    And Batman was created to milk off Superman. He was not a passion project, but a money making one, and a failed one at that. The genesis of the characters is not important.

    It's not like Bob Kane thought "this makes sense". Hell, or even Bill Finger, all he did was copy Zorro, move him to the US, and whack Bob Kane's "Bat" on there.
     
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  8. BLobo

    BLobo Well-Known Member

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    There are many problems in the world. Bruce helps to fight more than one of them.

    And BTW, how did you come up with the conclusion that Bruce Wayne doesn´t donate money? Do you even read comics? I don´t think you do. I don´t even think you watched the movies, to be honest, otherwise you wouldn´t be saying something like that.

    Just because he doesn´t donate EVERYTHING he has, doesn´t mean that he doesn´t help people. Does Bill Gates donate EVERYTHING he has? He has donated a lot of money, but he still lives in a brutal house, doesn´t he? And he still drives high end cars. Why not donate everything? It´s stupid to have so much money and not donate everything. Bill Gates has saved the lives of thousands. Why doesn´t he save more? Why doesn´t he sell his multi million dollar house and sport cars to save even more people? So, he has the possibility of saving many more people, but he chooses not to? That´s stupid.


    Actually, you´re wrong. For a man who does his best to save innocent people, recruting teenagers and putting them in danger seems to go against the character´s nature.

    Has Bob Kane ever said anything about Batman not being a passion project? I don´t think he has. He was always very proud of his character. To draw and tell stories was his passion, so i doubt Batman wasn´t a "passion project".

    Well, he actually gave us a reason that i can understand for Bruce becoming Batman and fighting crime. So he tried to make sense out of it. But Robin simply contrasts with the whole logic behind Batman. He worked in a time where the most pathetic ideas made it into the comics. But if you wanna make a movie that people would take seriously, i suggest not putting a teenager in tights in it. Unless it´s a comedy.
     
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  9. Walt Bickle

    Walt Bickle Well-Known Member

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    guys robin can be adapted to fit our age. for instance...
    instead of a sidekick, he is being trained to be a successor of the bat.

    instead of a domino mask, he has a balaclava type mask and a hood and the only part visible of his face is wear his domino mask should be..
    wears mere fragments of his circus costume along with regular clothes and some armor

    he awaits in the shadows and watches batman learning how to deal with criminals and is an emergency back-up when batman is compromised.

    does undercover jobs as a criminal etc in disguises for batman to gain information..

    then when he gets older he realise he doesn't want to become batman..

    only thing is batman is going to be in his late career in bvs so I want Grayson already established.
     
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  10. Oswald

    Oswald Well-Known Member

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    But Batman as a main character imposed from the beginning a series of characteristics of him and his universe, and Robin (at least the original Robin, but in my opinion this is extendible to all the members of the Bat-family) don't fit with them. BLobo said it: a man insanely obsessed with protecting innocents puts teenagers (originally kids!) in danger fighting crime, :huh: The one possible "realistic" reason is a kind of variation of the Munchausen syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_syndrome), but in comics (as far as I know) it has never been portrayed that way, and the Bat-family smells to commercial operation to attract kids and teenagers and to fill story arcs without changing the basic status quo (cause you can create all the sidekicks you want and kill them without killing Batman, the goose that laid the golden eggs).
     
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  11. BLobo

    BLobo Well-Known Member

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    Of course. We can have an older Robin who isn´t in tights. I actually like the visual of Robin from Arkham City.

    I still prefer Batman working alone though. Quality over quantity.
     
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  12. Oswald

    Oswald Well-Known Member

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    Me too. He's a solitary hero for nature.

    If there has to be a successor I would put the son of Gordon, who is fascinated with Batman and finally discovers his real identity. He wouldn't dress a costume and would help Bruce from the distance.
     
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  13. Walt Bickle

    Walt Bickle Well-Known Member

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    it could work.. I just remember in the batman beyond movie: return of the joker, it showed batgirl waiting in the backround to back up batman when confronting the joker and Harley and I thought that would work cool for a movie robin.
    personally for a realistic approach I would have it that batman's body is slowly breaking down and realises he can't do this forever, enter haley circus etc.

    preferably I would have had it after a bane encounter where batmans body is fecked and now needs a back up and successor, but don't think we will ever see bane on screen in our lifetime again.
     
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  14. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    [YT]watch?v=aTM_Zb6g2j0[/YT]

    :up:
     
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  15. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    No he doesn't. Show me a couple issues of Batman/Detective Comics where Batman actively tries to combat poverty, or disease?


    Your jimmy rustling is too overt. Go softer, bro, nobody here is getting mad.

    Simple answer. Bill Gates is not a superhero. He's a real man who has always wanted to be rich. He's donated 25% of his wealth (almost $30 billion) over the past few years and will donate all he has left over the next 25-30.

    No. What's stupid is trying to apply fictional examples to the real world, and not exaggerated real world instances to a fictional one.


    Batman doesn't do his best to stop corruption. He punches people, more people = more fists.

    He never uses his resources to battle crime, just his body why doesn't he donate a few hundred million to the police, orphanages, and poorer areas?

    We hear about it in TDKR, but that's pretty much it. Nothing he ever does changes Gotham, because if he did, the comic books would run out of stories to tell. So he can't do all he can.

    1. Not his character, not really. He was hired to create one. He then in turn hired Bill Finger to create it.

    2. Bob Kane did not come to DC with Batman. DC came to him asking for a character. Bat/Bird Man was red and blue with stiff wings and blonde hair. If that was Bob Kane's passion he wouldn't have let Bill Finger completely mutilate that character.

    3. If Bob Kane and Bill Finger did not care for Robin, they would not have created him. He was created to give him an actual partner when out on patrol, the Watson to his Holmes.

    Bruce Wayne- Saw his family murdered (usually between the ages of 8-12) and then goes on a vendetta against all crime, not letting go of that hate for around two-three decades.

    Dick Grayson- Saw his family murdered (usually between the ages of 12-17) and then goes on a vendetta against the man who killed them, eventually learning to move on after a few years.

    Which really seems more logical?

    Firstly [citation needed].

    Secondly, you're confusing serious and realistic.

    Thirdly, you keep going back to the original Bob Kane drawing of Robin as if he is all that exists of the character. Just so you know, this is Dick's costume now:

    [​IMG]

    Still not quite yet appropriate for live action, but not many comic book suits can get away with changing nothing at all.

    Fourthly everything about Batman is a pathetic idea. He's a child's character (like all superheroes) based around wish fulfilment on the idea that you can be big and strong and beat up the bad guys, but people aren't allowed to know you're strong. He's a drawing for children, he's not supposed to be realistic.

    Adults need ridiculous things explained even though the answer is obvious to all children: Because it's not real.
     
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  16. Oswald

    Oswald Well-Known Member

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    Because the Batman comics were too dark for the kids and DC ordered the authors to insert a young character they could identify with.

    But he's the more realistic of all superheroes, and one of the few which allows explore adult matters. Robin is a step back in this vision of the character (for me, the most interesting).

    He donates money in a lot of stories, come on! In fact, when Bruce Wayne appears there is usually a mention of his philantrophy and solidarity with the disadvantaged (in the comics of Scott Snyder this reaches the paroxism). Do you really read Batman comics?

    But that's true, his real motivation doesn't seem to be fight the corruption...
     
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  17. Oswald

    Oswald Well-Known Member

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    Because Batman comics were too dark for the kids and DC ordered the authors to insert a young character they could identify with.

    But he's the more realistic of all superheroes, and one of the few which allows explore adult matters. Robin is a step back in this vision of the character (for me, the most interesting).

    He donates money in a lot of stories, come on! In fact, when Bruce Wayne appears there is usually a mention of his philantrophy and solidarity with the disadvantaged (in the comics of Scott Snyder this reaches the paroxism). Do you really read Batman comics?

    But that's true, his real motivation doesn't seem to be fight the corruption...
     
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  18. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    Whatever man. We dont like Robin. We find it silly that kids would be fighting crime, acting tough in a cape.
     
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  19. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    No they didn't. Bill and Bob created him of their own accord:

    And then you'd have to ignore the fact that Kane already created a kid sidekick for a previous character.

    I think Batman, by virture of being human, yet standing up to gods, is the least realistic character. Sure his body may work closest to ours, but his actions are more ridiculous.

    Like when people say Batman is more relatable than Superman:

    Batman is insanely rich, has a butler, a male model despite not taking much care to his appearance, owns a billion dollar company is the most eligible bachelor on the planet, has cool gadgets, a cool life.

    Superman works an average paid job 9-5, is working class, was married, and hangs out with friends.

    How is the first more relatable?

    It doesn't reach its zenith in anything. The idea of rebuilding an area of Gotham was used only as the motivation for the Court of Owls. Any development that could have come from it has been dropped. Because that's how comics work, you can't have him start winning.

    I just find it hilarious that one drawing for children of a man crimefighter in blue and grey is "cool", and another drawing for children of teenager in red and green gets people so flustered.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  20. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    He's 10 or 13 or whatever and he's kicking peoples asses and being a tough guy? Give me a break.

    It's more relatable because i can't fly, i dont have heat vision, i cant lift airplanes and toss em. Im not an alien from outer space and i didnt grow up a complete loner not fitting in to any group whatsoever. I didnt grow up on a farm. Am i rich? No? But can a person become rich? Yes, if they work hard or if they're born in that kind of family. Can i learn martial arts? Yes. Can i build myself up physically without superpowers? Yes. Did my parents die when i was young? No. But emotionally it taps into something very human. We fear creatures, we fear the death of our parents, and i have a darkness inside of me sometimes (like we all do) and guess what? Bruce uses that anger in a constructive way like a lot of us do or can do.

    In the future, a person with wealth and training could actually be a real Batman. They just need to be a little bit crazy lol. But it can be done.

    Batman is the relatable one.
     
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  21. Oswald

    Oswald Well-Known Member

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    Because is human, and his motivations are purely human, without any magic influence. So simple.

    But that is a problem of the commercial comic-book narrative, it doesn't mean Bruce Wayne doesn't use his fortune to make Gotham a better city (whatever this means for him)!

    Because their clothes aren't important, their origins and background are. That's the difference between a cool character and a ridiculous one.
     
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  22. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    No. Because it's not real.

    None of those things are in his personality though are they? Take away Superman, Clark Kent is the 99%. Take away Batman and Bruce Wayne is the 1%.


    You never once felt isolated, weird or different as a teenager? Also, Clark has always had friends.


    Did you grow up in a household closer to average income than $1 billion?

    Neither is Clark Kent.

    Clark Kent can do those things. But, having already been born, you can't now be born into a rich family, that is as likely as having those powers.

    Like if I tried to become king, it literally cannot happen, because I've already been born to people who aren't the king, or in direct line to the throne.

    Superpowers aren't a part of his character (by character i mean like his personality and how he lives his life, what he feels et cetera).

    Bruce's motivation is more clear cut as it's based on revenge, but those things can apply to Superman to.

    But have you done, or experienced the things Bruce Wayne does regularly? Like buy a hotel because your date wanted to swim?

    But have you ever been chastised by a boss?

    He's more realistic, and you made a great case for that. He doesn't experience things that most people experience. He's not regular in his regular life, even in his regular life he's more special than most people in the world.

    "My parents taught me to be good and now I am"- Superman's motivation.

    Now this I agree with. Given the cyclical nature of comic books, and something occasionally touched upon, is the fact Bruce makes Gotham worse by attracting these colourful mass murderers. Maybe, given that Batman is his outlet for emotional rage, he does so intentionally.

    That would be good to see in a psychological film.

    Their origins are nearly identical though! Except one is trained by many, and one is trained by the predecessor.
     
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  23. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    People like to complicate things. It's very simple. Batman has no superpowers, most of the others do. That's why he's more relatable. He's a human being, driven to turn his negativity into something positive even if it doesnt gain everyones acceptance.

    We could train. We could get rich. Even if we're not those things, it could happen.
     
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  24. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    If you take away the gadgets and wealth , you have a very different Batman. But you still have Batman. Bruce can still be Batman. The suit, the car, will be different but he could still train and be Batman. Take away the powers and Clark can't be Superman, he's just a farm boy with a great family. A regular joe. Now he's relatable, but it would cease to exist because there would be no Superman. You dont make comics about regular people. Wasn't that the point of Aronofsky's year one? Or am i remembering it incorrectly?? Where he doesn't have that kind of wealth but he's still a version of Batman.

    That's why you can stick Batman in any era. 1800's even, and you can still have "a" batman.

    The trauma he suffers, is relatable to people. The psychology is there.
     
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  25. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's say it's a quiet week in Gotham and Metropolis then.

    Bruce Wayne would wake up some time in the late morning, maybe even the afternoon, have breakfast prepared for him by his butler, get taken to work in a car worth a couple hundred thousand dollars. He'd then sleep through a couple meetings at the company he owns, where he'll make a couple thousand in that time for the trouble. He'd then get driven home, driven out (in a different, hundred grand car) to a massively expensive restaurant, dating a supermodel (or three), he might buy the place on a whim. However, the whole time he's secretly a little distraught, because he's always distraught, after his parents died.

    Clark Kent would probably wake up in the early morning, prepare his own breakfast in his apartment. Walk or cycle to work, where he'll be for the next 8 hours. Then he'll go back to his apartment, he might walk his dog, then he'll either stay home and watch TV with his wife or, if it's a special occasion, a moderately expensive restaurant. When they get home, he may talk on the phone to his parents.

    Batman is more real because he's human, but Superman feels human too. But from the two descriptions above (based on character and motivation, as that is all I described, not abilities) which is more applicable to you?
     
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