Batmannerism
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I really enjoyed your reply. However, there are some things that I might suggest to you, because you make some generalisations and while they sound good, I'm not sure they hold up under a bit of critical thought.
I've heard that claim before, that Marvel "has always reflected the real world" . It sounds great.
But it raises some questions:
1) First is it really so ? If we think about it a little, the answer isn't a straight up yes or no, it's more of a sort of. How did I come to that conclusion ? I read quite a few Marvel comics between 1978 and 2000 (and occasionally a few after that) so I have some background to draw on (plus the internet to fill in the gaps).
So was Marvel really reflecting the real world ? Well, not really, if you mean a reflection as it mirrored what was actually going on at the time.
I mean was Marvel putting out stories about civil rights marches, segregation and racism in its mainstream comics when it started back in the 60s ? I haven't heard of any, if there are I'd be interested to read them.
So then Marvel, with the Isiah Bradley story (which I believe was early 2000s ) is a retrospecitve and fictional look at an episode of America's racist history, not really a reflection.
I've read a bit of Marvel's 1602 and marvel 1872, and I missed the bits that dealt with slavery or the aftermath of the Civil War (although that was a while ago too).
Ah ha you might say, but the X-Men comics were a metaphor for racism, with Professor X modelled on Dr King and Magneto on Malcolm X. Well that's a fair point. In fact I would say that Chris Claremont ( a writer I have a reall love-hate relationship with) wrote something really courageous in 1982, which did reflect the real world. It was a graphic novel called "God Loves, Man Kills" . The second X Men film is a very rough adaptation of it.
It's about an evangelical Christian group hunting and murdering mutants. It's really powerful - if you like the Xmen at all, I highly recommend it. Anway, evangelical christianity in America and preaching hate were topical at the time, and there are racial undertones, but they're a bit more subtle.
It starts with the murder of two black children, who are shot and then hung up with "mutie" signs on them. It's really intense - and then Magneto turns up and lays the bodies to rest, vowing revenge. Claremont, being a clever writer (most of the time) doesn't need to punch us in the face with "oh no, these poor black kids being murdered is a representation of how awful hate crimes are in America" because we can figure that out for ourselves.
Later, and this could not happen in 2021 I suspect, the younger X-men are with Stevie Hunter, an African American dance teacher who was a friend of theirs ( apparently they needed dance lessons). One of the students makes some derogatory comments about mutants, and Kitty punches him. Stevie says something like "They're just words child."
Kitty replies " Would you be so calm if he called me a N#$%^& lover ?" actually using the word.
Wow, that was a powerful moment. Again, here's Claremont hitting us with the power of hate speech, in 1982. Can't give him enough props for this.
Even later, Kitty gets saved from the Christian assassins by a Latino street gang, who all get gunned down for their trouble.
Where am I going with all this ? Okay, so here is Marvel comics making some statements about the real world evils of racism and fundamentalism in America, but doing so by analogy - it's not a reflection, because a reflection is a exact reproduction of a real object, or a real event.
I would argue that this approach is very clever, because it makes us think, and come to the conclusion that Claremont was aiming for on our own, without feeling we'd been preached to - I guess the risk is that some people will always think it's just about mutants, but there you go.
The Xmen of that time also did clever things like have Storm visit a heroin den, and note some of the problems faced by young people and African Americans (very fleetlingly).
So in summary, not really a reflection, but an analogy - and in Isiah's case a retrospective one.
Now you did say "in some way, shape or form" so that might be wide enough to cover analogy,
but I suggest that it's a stretch to say that Marvel has always reflected the real world , or at least if it is a reflection, then it's still a very distorted and blurry one.
- although it gets props for having its stories take place in real places, like New York city, which is an awesome setting for any story.
2) Even if we did agree that Marvel comics reflected the real world, Falcon and the Winter Soldier is the MCU. Has the MCU reflected the real world ?
Again, I'd say that at most it goes for analogy. Iron Man itself makes some statements about the moral ambiguities of the arms industry and its impact on civillian populations in war torn places like Afghanistan.
Iron Man 2 ? Not really, except for maybe the airforce essentially stealing Stark's technology and more about the shady nature of the arms industry.
Iron Man 3 ? Hmmm..... a pretty ridiculous take on terrorism, and an almost parody of Al Qaeda. You could read more into that, but I won't here.
The Thor films ? Reflecting the real world ? Yeah, nah, as we say down here ( translation "no")
The Captain America films ?
Well the first one has some historic elements, although it doesn't really explore the full on horror
of WW II frontline combat. The Winter Soldier, reflecting the real world ? Not really, it's almost a James Bond type espionage story. Civil War, well Steve does point out the ineffectual and corrupt nature of bodies such as the UN Security Council - really if there's a reflection of the real world it's about how we live in an imperfect world dominated by imperfect organisations that supply imperfect solutions. Again, that's reading a lot into it.
Captain Marvel - well it did show how slow dial-up internet was.
Look, I could keep going here through every MCU film, but I think we only need to look at the Avengers films to see that these are pretty much fantasy, with a message about overpopulation.
My point is, because I realise I've taken a while to get to it, is that the MCU has been enormously successful and not really reflected much about the real world. In fact its highest grossing films probably don't reflect reality much at all.
So, for Falcon and the Winter Solider to suddenly take on racism in America directly is largely a departure from their previous approach. This leads neatly to my next point......
3) Does the MCU need to reflect real world issues, such as American racism ?
I'm not going to provide an answer for this one, but there are different perspectives on this like:
a) No, it's just escapism, it's ****ing comic book movies and you don't get more escapist than that. People watch these programs to get away from the difficult issues that plague the real world.
b) Yes. artists have a social duty to tackle tough issues, and comic books and comic book films/shows are an artistic medium through which these issues can be explored and dealt with directly so we can educate our audience
c) Maybe. The popularity of these programs makes them a good medium to explore such issues, but in a way that will be entertaining and clever and perhaps inspire the audience to think without preaching at them.
d).... every other school of thought in-between, or a variation on the above.
I guess this is a huge question about the purpose and nature of Art, and we're not going to answer that here. So why am I bringing it up ?
Well, one of my original questions was "is this what America needs right now?" I suppose what
I was trying to ask is "Given the current media narrative that America is a very divided country, along racial lines, why not have a story that shows some of the positive things that have happened between Americans of different races ?"
I suppose this assumes that some positive things have actually occurred - which leads into your comment.
Well, it appears the story as it is has caught flak from some viewers anyway - whatever story you told, someone wouldn't be happy with it.
But is it dishonest ? Well, I don't know enough about American history to know if that's completely true, do you ? I do know that the Armed forces were segregated during world war 2. However, I'm sure a quick google search of "African American heroes of world war 2" will probably reveal instances of African American heroism during the conflict ( Dorie Miller ? The Tuskegee Airmen ? )
Now you pointed out some of the terrible things that happened during the 1950s (and if you read my original post, I also referred to some of the more terrible racist events in American history as well, although not specifically the 1950s). Segregation was still in place in the South and some really terrible stuff happened to African Americans at that time.
However, looking back at your comment, you've used the word they
Who are they ? They is a pretty inclusive collective pronoun, which without clarification could mean pretty much everyone. That's a pretty big generalisation if you're suggesting that everyone was lynching and supporting segregation. That these things happened I don't dispute - but what was their frequency and distribution ? Were they happening all the time and all across America in the 1950s ? I'm not talking about everyday racism and de facto segregation but the extreme events you mention. Was it common enough to support your use of they ?
My underlying point is that with the current media narrative drawing attention to the problems caused by racism in America, which relate to real events do we also need to invent fictional stories about racism as well ?
This goes back to the purpose of Art question, so whichever perspective you take on that will determine whether you think the answer is yes or no.
The bolded part was about whether the show would change anyone's point of view on racism in America. I don't think it will. But you have a point - if you think the purpose of art is to educate - then I suppose its worth putting Isiah's tragic story into the narrative.
Should the show be doing this, and is it a story that Falcon and the Winter Soldier needs to explore ? I suppose that again goes back to your point of view, about the purpose and nature of Art, as education or as entertainment (or variations of both). Do you really think the Americans who want to downplay such things are going to change their point of view because of it ? (Yes, I already asked that, it's a rhetorical question).
What might undermine the validity of the show trying to do so is that its a comic book based series - not a documentary - and unlike the HBO Watchmen series which blended in some pretty horrific, but real, events, its completely fictional.
Not sure how to respond to that, almost sounds like a thinly veiled insult. Whatever. Not sure what you're trying to say about your fellow Americans, but it sounds a bit like you're implying a lot of them prefer stories where there are positive as well as negative race relations- because Green Book has both (well, it's been a while since I saw it). That does say a lot indeed.
I've heard that claim before, that Marvel "has always reflected the real world" . It sounds great.
But it raises some questions:
1) First is it really so ? If we think about it a little, the answer isn't a straight up yes or no, it's more of a sort of. How did I come to that conclusion ? I read quite a few Marvel comics between 1978 and 2000 (and occasionally a few after that) so I have some background to draw on (plus the internet to fill in the gaps).
So was Marvel really reflecting the real world ? Well, not really, if you mean a reflection as it mirrored what was actually going on at the time.
I mean was Marvel putting out stories about civil rights marches, segregation and racism in its mainstream comics when it started back in the 60s ? I haven't heard of any, if there are I'd be interested to read them.
So then Marvel, with the Isiah Bradley story (which I believe was early 2000s ) is a retrospecitve and fictional look at an episode of America's racist history, not really a reflection.
I've read a bit of Marvel's 1602 and marvel 1872, and I missed the bits that dealt with slavery or the aftermath of the Civil War (although that was a while ago too).
Ah ha you might say, but the X-Men comics were a metaphor for racism, with Professor X modelled on Dr King and Magneto on Malcolm X. Well that's a fair point. In fact I would say that Chris Claremont ( a writer I have a reall love-hate relationship with) wrote something really courageous in 1982, which did reflect the real world. It was a graphic novel called "God Loves, Man Kills" . The second X Men film is a very rough adaptation of it.
It's about an evangelical Christian group hunting and murdering mutants. It's really powerful - if you like the Xmen at all, I highly recommend it. Anway, evangelical christianity in America and preaching hate were topical at the time, and there are racial undertones, but they're a bit more subtle.
It starts with the murder of two black children, who are shot and then hung up with "mutie" signs on them. It's really intense - and then Magneto turns up and lays the bodies to rest, vowing revenge. Claremont, being a clever writer (most of the time) doesn't need to punch us in the face with "oh no, these poor black kids being murdered is a representation of how awful hate crimes are in America" because we can figure that out for ourselves.
Later, and this could not happen in 2021 I suspect, the younger X-men are with Stevie Hunter, an African American dance teacher who was a friend of theirs ( apparently they needed dance lessons). One of the students makes some derogatory comments about mutants, and Kitty punches him. Stevie says something like "They're just words child."
Kitty replies " Would you be so calm if he called me a N#$%^& lover ?" actually using the word.
Wow, that was a powerful moment. Again, here's Claremont hitting us with the power of hate speech, in 1982. Can't give him enough props for this.
Even later, Kitty gets saved from the Christian assassins by a Latino street gang, who all get gunned down for their trouble.
Where am I going with all this ? Okay, so here is Marvel comics making some statements about the real world evils of racism and fundamentalism in America, but doing so by analogy - it's not a reflection, because a reflection is a exact reproduction of a real object, or a real event.
I would argue that this approach is very clever, because it makes us think, and come to the conclusion that Claremont was aiming for on our own, without feeling we'd been preached to - I guess the risk is that some people will always think it's just about mutants, but there you go.
The Xmen of that time also did clever things like have Storm visit a heroin den, and note some of the problems faced by young people and African Americans (very fleetlingly).
So in summary, not really a reflection, but an analogy - and in Isiah's case a retrospective one.
Now you did say "in some way, shape or form" so that might be wide enough to cover analogy,
but I suggest that it's a stretch to say that Marvel has always reflected the real world , or at least if it is a reflection, then it's still a very distorted and blurry one.
- although it gets props for having its stories take place in real places, like New York city, which is an awesome setting for any story.
2) Even if we did agree that Marvel comics reflected the real world, Falcon and the Winter Soldier is the MCU. Has the MCU reflected the real world ?
Again, I'd say that at most it goes for analogy. Iron Man itself makes some statements about the moral ambiguities of the arms industry and its impact on civillian populations in war torn places like Afghanistan.
Iron Man 2 ? Not really, except for maybe the airforce essentially stealing Stark's technology and more about the shady nature of the arms industry.
Iron Man 3 ? Hmmm..... a pretty ridiculous take on terrorism, and an almost parody of Al Qaeda. You could read more into that, but I won't here.
The Thor films ? Reflecting the real world ? Yeah, nah, as we say down here ( translation "no")
The Captain America films ?
Well the first one has some historic elements, although it doesn't really explore the full on horror
of WW II frontline combat. The Winter Soldier, reflecting the real world ? Not really, it's almost a James Bond type espionage story. Civil War, well Steve does point out the ineffectual and corrupt nature of bodies such as the UN Security Council - really if there's a reflection of the real world it's about how we live in an imperfect world dominated by imperfect organisations that supply imperfect solutions. Again, that's reading a lot into it.
Captain Marvel - well it did show how slow dial-up internet was.
Look, I could keep going here through every MCU film, but I think we only need to look at the Avengers films to see that these are pretty much fantasy, with a message about overpopulation.
My point is, because I realise I've taken a while to get to it, is that the MCU has been enormously successful and not really reflected much about the real world. In fact its highest grossing films probably don't reflect reality much at all.
So, for Falcon and the Winter Solider to suddenly take on racism in America directly is largely a departure from their previous approach. This leads neatly to my next point......
3) Does the MCU need to reflect real world issues, such as American racism ?
I'm not going to provide an answer for this one, but there are different perspectives on this like:
a) No, it's just escapism, it's ****ing comic book movies and you don't get more escapist than that. People watch these programs to get away from the difficult issues that plague the real world.
b) Yes. artists have a social duty to tackle tough issues, and comic books and comic book films/shows are an artistic medium through which these issues can be explored and dealt with directly so we can educate our audience
c) Maybe. The popularity of these programs makes them a good medium to explore such issues, but in a way that will be entertaining and clever and perhaps inspire the audience to think without preaching at them.
d).... every other school of thought in-between, or a variation on the above.
I guess this is a huge question about the purpose and nature of Art, and we're not going to answer that here. So why am I bringing it up ?
Well, one of my original questions was "is this what America needs right now?" I suppose what
I was trying to ask is "Given the current media narrative that America is a very divided country, along racial lines, why not have a story that shows some of the positive things that have happened between Americans of different races ?"
I suppose this assumes that some positive things have actually occurred - which leads into your comment.
Well, it appears the story as it is has caught flak from some viewers anyway - whatever story you told, someone wouldn't be happy with it.
But is it dishonest ? Well, I don't know enough about American history to know if that's completely true, do you ? I do know that the Armed forces were segregated during world war 2. However, I'm sure a quick google search of "African American heroes of world war 2" will probably reveal instances of African American heroism during the conflict ( Dorie Miller ? The Tuskegee Airmen ? )
Now you pointed out some of the terrible things that happened during the 1950s (and if you read my original post, I also referred to some of the more terrible racist events in American history as well, although not specifically the 1950s). Segregation was still in place in the South and some really terrible stuff happened to African Americans at that time.
However, looking back at your comment, you've used the word they
Who are they ? They is a pretty inclusive collective pronoun, which without clarification could mean pretty much everyone. That's a pretty big generalisation if you're suggesting that everyone was lynching and supporting segregation. That these things happened I don't dispute - but what was their frequency and distribution ? Were they happening all the time and all across America in the 1950s ? I'm not talking about everyday racism and de facto segregation but the extreme events you mention. Was it common enough to support your use of they ?
My underlying point is that with the current media narrative drawing attention to the problems caused by racism in America, which relate to real events do we also need to invent fictional stories about racism as well ?
This goes back to the purpose of Art question, so whichever perspective you take on that will determine whether you think the answer is yes or no.
The bolded part was about whether the show would change anyone's point of view on racism in America. I don't think it will. But you have a point - if you think the purpose of art is to educate - then I suppose its worth putting Isiah's tragic story into the narrative.
Should the show be doing this, and is it a story that Falcon and the Winter Soldier needs to explore ? I suppose that again goes back to your point of view, about the purpose and nature of Art, as education or as entertainment (or variations of both). Do you really think the Americans who want to downplay such things are going to change their point of view because of it ? (Yes, I already asked that, it's a rhetorical question).
What might undermine the validity of the show trying to do so is that its a comic book based series - not a documentary - and unlike the HBO Watchmen series which blended in some pretty horrific, but real, events, its completely fictional.
Not sure how to respond to that, almost sounds like a thinly veiled insult. Whatever. Not sure what you're trying to say about your fellow Americans, but it sounds a bit like you're implying a lot of them prefer stories where there are positive as well as negative race relations- because Green Book has both (well, it's been a while since I saw it). That does say a lot indeed.
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