Falcon and Winter Soldier Season 1, Episode 6: "One World, One People" (Series Finale)

Discussion in 'MCU Limited Series on Disney+' started by The Caped Knight, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. legendkillin Registered

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    I am hoping the pandemic issues played a part in some of the issues. I did not care for the Flag Smashers/Karli they had no energy to me that could convince people of their mission. A revolution they wanted needed a charismatic leader and they had none. They will bring the best for the movie and probably use more known characters. I trust they could get some great material from Dreyfus, Mackie, Stan, and Bruhl. I am not sold on US Agent though he just wants to be wanted I get that but he was kind of ehh to me.
     
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  2. Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    I really enjoyed your reply. However, there are some things that I might suggest to you, because you make some generalisations and while they sound good, I'm not sure they hold up under a bit of critical thought.

    I've heard that claim before, that Marvel "has always reflected the real world" . It sounds great.


    But it raises some questions:

    1) First is it really so ? If we think about it a little, the answer isn't a straight up yes or no, it's more of a sort of. How did I come to that conclusion ? I read quite a few Marvel comics between 1978 and 2000 (and occasionally a few after that) so I have some background to draw on (plus the internet to fill in the gaps).

    So was Marvel really reflecting the real world ? Well, not really, if you mean a reflection as it mirrored what was actually going on at the time.

    I mean was Marvel putting out stories about civil rights marches, segregation and racism in its mainstream comics when it started back in the 60s ? I haven't heard of any, if there are I'd be interested to read them.

    So then Marvel, with the Isiah Bradley story (which I believe was early 2000s ) is a retrospecitve and fictional look at an episode of America's racist history, not really a reflection.

    I've read a bit of Marvel's 1602 and marvel 1872, and I missed the bits that dealt with slavery or the aftermath of the Civil War (although that was a while ago too).

    Ah ha you might say, but the X-Men comics were a metaphor for racism, with Professor X modelled on Dr King and Magneto on Malcolm X. Well that's a fair point. In fact I would say that Chris Claremont ( a writer I have a reall love-hate relationship with) wrote something really courageous in 1982, which did reflect the real world. It was a graphic novel called "God Loves, Man Kills" . The second X Men film is a very rough adaptation of it.

    It's about an evangelical Christian group hunting and murdering mutants. It's really powerful - if you like the Xmen at all, I highly recommend it. Anway, evangelical christianity in America and preaching hate were topical at the time, and there are racial undertones, but they're a bit more subtle.

    It starts with the murder of two black children, who are shot and then hung up with "mutie" signs on them. It's really intense - and then Magneto turns up and lays the bodies to rest, vowing revenge. Claremont, being a clever writer (most of the time) doesn't need to punch us in the face with "oh no, these poor black kids being murdered is a representation of how awful hate crimes are in America" because we can figure that out for ourselves.

    Later, and this could not happen in 2021 I suspect, the younger X-men are with Stevie Hunter, an African American dance teacher who was a friend of theirs ( apparently they needed dance lessons). One of the students makes some derogatory comments about mutants, and Kitty punches him. Stevie says something like "They're just words child."

    Kitty replies " Would you be so calm if he called me a N#$%^& lover ?" actually using the word.

    Wow, that was a powerful moment. Again, here's Claremont hitting us with the power of hate speech, in 1982. Can't give him enough props for this.

    Even later, Kitty gets saved from the Christian assassins by a Latino street gang, who all get gunned down for their trouble.


    Where am I going with all this ? Okay, so here is Marvel comics making some statements about the real world evils of racism and fundamentalism in America, but doing so by analogy - it's not a reflection, because a reflection is a exact reproduction of a real object, or a real event.

    I would argue that this approach is very clever, because it makes us think, and come to the conclusion that Claremont was aiming for on our own, without feeling we'd been preached to - I guess the risk is that some people will always think it's just about mutants, but there you go.

    The Xmen of that time also did clever things like have Storm visit a heroin den, and note some of the problems faced by young people and African Americans (very fleetlingly).

    So in summary, not really a reflection, but an analogy - and in Isiah's case a retrospective one.

    Now you did say "in some way, shape or form" so that might be wide enough to cover analogy,
    but I suggest that it's a stretch to say that Marvel has always reflected the real world , or at least if it is a reflection, then it's still a very distorted and blurry one.
    - although it gets props for having its stories take place in real places, like New York city, which is an awesome setting for any story.


    2) Even if we did agree that Marvel comics reflected the real world, Falcon and the Winter Soldier is the MCU. Has the MCU reflected the real world ?

    Again, I'd say that at most it goes for analogy. Iron Man itself makes some statements about the moral ambiguities of the arms industry and its impact on civillian populations in war torn places like Afghanistan.
    Iron Man 2 ? Not really, except for maybe the airforce essentially stealing Stark's technology and more about the shady nature of the arms industry.
    Iron Man 3 ? Hmmm..... a pretty ridiculous take on terrorism, and an almost parody of Al Qaeda. You could read more into that, but I won't here.

    The Thor films ? Reflecting the real world ? Yeah, nah, as we say down here ( translation "no")

    The Captain America films ?
    Well the first one has some historic elements, although it doesn't really explore the full on horror
    of WW II frontline combat. The Winter Soldier, reflecting the real world ? Not really, it's almost a James Bond type espionage story. Civil War, well Steve does point out the ineffectual and corrupt nature of bodies such as the UN Security Council - really if there's a reflection of the real world it's about how we live in an imperfect world dominated by imperfect organisations that supply imperfect solutions. Again, that's reading a lot into it.

    Captain Marvel - well it did show how slow dial-up internet was.

    Look, I could keep going here through every MCU film, but I think we only need to look at the Avengers films to see that these are pretty much fantasy, with a message about overpopulation.

    My point is, because I realise I've taken a while to get to it, is that the MCU has been enormously successful and not really reflected much about the real world. In fact its highest grossing films probably don't reflect reality much at all.

    So, for Falcon and the Winter Solider to suddenly take on racism in America directly is largely a departure from their previous approach. This leads neatly to my next point......


    3) Does the MCU need to reflect real world issues, such as American racism ?

    I'm not going to provide an answer for this one, but there are different perspectives on this like:

    a) No, it's just escapism, it's ****ing comic book movies and you don't get more escapist than that. People watch these programs to get away from the difficult issues that plague the real world.

    b) Yes. artists have a social duty to tackle tough issues, and comic books and comic book films/shows are an artistic medium through which these issues can be explored and dealt with directly so we can educate our audience

    c) Maybe. The popularity of these programs makes them a good medium to explore such issues, but in a way that will be entertaining and clever and perhaps inspire the audience to think without preaching at them.

    d).... every other school of thought in-between, or a variation on the above.

    I guess this is a huge question about the purpose and nature of Art, and we're not going to answer that here. So why am I bringing it up ?

    Well, one of my original questions was "is this what America needs right now?" I suppose what
    I was trying to ask is "Given the current media narrative that America is a very divided country, along racial lines, why not have a story that shows some of the positive things that have happened between Americans of different races ?"

    I suppose this assumes that some positive things have actually occurred - which leads into your comment.

    Well, it appears the story as it is has caught flak from some viewers anyway - whatever story you told, someone wouldn't be happy with it.

    But is it dishonest ? Well, I don't know enough about American history to know if that's completely true, do you ? I do know that the Armed forces were segregated during world war 2. However, I'm sure a quick google search of "African American heroes of world war 2" will probably reveal instances of African American heroism during the conflict ( Dorie Miller ? The Tuskegee Airmen ? )

    Now you pointed out some of the terrible things that happened during the 1950s (and if you read my original post, I also referred to some of the more terrible racist events in American history as well, although not specifically the 1950s). Segregation was still in place in the South and some really terrible stuff happened to African Americans at that time.

    However, looking back at your comment, you've used the word they

    Who are they ? They is a pretty inclusive collective pronoun, which without clarification could mean pretty much everyone. That's a pretty big generalisation if you're suggesting that everyone was lynching and supporting segregation. That these things happened I don't dispute - but what was their frequency and distribution ? Were they happening all the time and all across America in the 1950s ? I'm not talking about everyday racism and de facto segregation but the extreme events you mention. Was it common enough to support your use of they ?

    My underlying point is that with the current media narrative drawing attention to the problems caused by racism in America, which relate to real events do we also need to invent fictional stories about racism as well ?

    This goes back to the purpose of Art question, so whichever perspective you take on that will determine whether you think the answer is yes or no.

    The bolded part was about whether the show would change anyone's point of view on racism in America. I don't think it will. But you have a point - if you think the purpose of art is to educate - then I suppose its worth putting Isiah's tragic story into the narrative.

    Should the show be doing this, and is it a story that Falcon and the Winter Soldier needs to explore ? I suppose that again goes back to your point of view, about the purpose and nature of Art, as education or as entertainment (or variations of both). Do you really think the Americans who want to downplay such things are going to change their point of view because of it ? (Yes, I already asked that, it's a rhetorical question).

    What might undermine the validity of the show trying to do so is that its a comic book based series - not a documentary - and unlike the HBO Watchmen series which blended in some pretty horrific, but real, events, its completely fictional.

    Not sure how to respond to that, almost sounds like a thinly veiled insult. Whatever. Not sure what you're trying to say about your fellow Americans, but it sounds a bit like you're implying a lot of them prefer stories where there are positive as well as negative race relations- because Green Book has both (well, it's been a while since I saw it). That does say a lot indeed.
     
    #227 Batmannerism, Apr 25, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  3. thangaran Registered

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    Btw were the chairs in the building made of Adamantium? Captain France (batroc) kicks a chair and that stops the mighty shield dead in its tracks. That is one hell of a powerful chair. I really hope Shield seizes on this chair technology to build formidable chair weapons which can defeat vibranium
     
  4. Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Yes I believe that the MCU is developing a series around that chair, and how it is used to fight for social justice. The series will be called "Sit down for justice!"
     
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  5. Gaultheria Registered

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    This will not stand!
     
  6. Gaultheria Registered

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    Walker seems to have a "tell" when he's experiencing conflicting drives. It's an abrupt shake of the head, as if he's trying to "snap out of it" and make a choice. He did it when deciding between going after Karli versus saving the hostages, and he did it as the Countess was leaving the hearing room. In real life, this sort of tic can just happen for no particular reason, but I think the show is trying to demonstrate that Walker is still impulsive.
     
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  7. Gladius Nova Registered

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    When he said that, I expected to see a cameo from one of the other Avengers...mainly War Machine.
     
    #232 Gladius Nova, Apr 25, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  8. Gladius Nova Registered

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    Like most here, I couldn't stand her or her character. Couldn't stand her in the Han Solo movie also.
     
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  9. Gladius Nova Registered

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    One more thing about Sam. Didn't when he was first introduced in the Marvel Universe (the movies), he had some sort of "disability"? Hence the reason why he retired from the military and was working for the VA? Like he had a back injury or something....I wonder why they chose not to continue to address this?. Oh well....
     
  10. Silvermoon Made To Be Ruled

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    Nope, there was never an indication that he retired because of an injury. If anything he implies he retired after he lost his wingman, Riley, that got killed/shot down on a rescue mission, but not injury on Sam’s part


    Edit: here’s the dialogue from CA:TWS when Steve and Sam talk about why Sam got out:

     
    #235 Silvermoon, Apr 25, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  11. Dark Raven It's not about what you deserve...

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    A discus or shotput injury, so now whenever he throws the shield it aggravates that old injury.
     
  12. Web-Head Oh boy yeah

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Gladius Nova Registered

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    Oh...ok
     
  14. Gladius Nova Registered

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    Don’t know if this is sarcasm or serious.
     
  15. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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    100% Sarcastic Bull!!!!
     
  16. Gaultheria Registered

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    Walker’s lie to Hoskins’ family makes the scene with Bucky’s admission all the more powerful. Both men sought to bring closure and comfort of a sort to grieving families, but Walker tried to protect his own reputation whereas Bucky chose integrity and full disclosure. Walker continued on in a fragile state of denial, and Bucky got to unwind for the first time in decades.
     
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  17. samsnee Ok

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    The only thing that still annoys me is that Sam doesn’t seem to be able to hold his own in a fight. He had a hard time with Crossbones in TWS and in the finale, ran away from Batroc. And these are supposedly normal people like him with no enhancements.

    I understand Captain America isn’t just about having super strength, but really makes me wonder how he will hold his own when he’s not in his suit. They gave Stark nanotech so he always has suit on him. But what are they going to do in Sam’s movie when the villain attacks him while he’s out to dinner?
     
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  18. Kane52630 >>BATNIPPLES INTENSIFIES<<

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  19. Spider-Fan83 with great power...

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    conveniently for them they are the ones writing the movie, and can just not have that scenario play out in their plot
     
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  20. samsnee Ok

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    Looks good but can’t imagine how much Anthony must swear in that thing
     
  21. thangaran Registered

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    They’ve got to explain how he’ll be able to take on much more dangerous opponents in Cap 4 as he was pretty much getting clocked around this whole series. I’m fine if they upgrade the costume more for body armor and enhanced strength but this new cap as is is going to have extremely significant issues defeating enhanced opponents
     
  22. Schlosser85 Registered

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    For that matter, Bucky spent the whole show getting beat up too, and Bucky is supposed to be enhanced. He got slapped around like a red-headed stepchild by The Flagsmashers when unlike them, Bucky has actual combat training and fighting skills, and almost got killed by Walker.

    And before someone gives the "he was holding back because he's trying not to kill anyone" justification, he was trying not to kill people in Civil War too, and yet he came across as more bad-ass and powerful in his fight scenes in that than he ever did here.

    They needed the fight choreographers for The Winter Soldier and Civil War on this show (or maybe it was the Russos that made the difference).
     
  23. Dark Raven It's not about what you deserve...

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    He probably becomes like Samuel L Jackson and call everyone a mother****er! :o
     
  24. Fosterson Registered

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    Well, he looked badass taking down German special forces but then he should given that they're just regular humans. In all of his fights against characters with super powers in Civil War (Black Panther, Spidey and Iron Man) he lost badly.

    I do agree though that the Russos had a better handle on action sequences featuring these characters.
     
  25. Schlosser85 Registered

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    I think he did pretty decent against Iron Man, all things considered, considering he's just a super-strong guy versus a man in a superpowered armored suit with an array of gadgets and weapons at his fingertips. I'll grant you he was overmatched against Black Panther and Spider-Man.

    I still say he should have done better against The Flagsmashers though. Unlike Iron Man or Spider-Man, The Flagsmashers were just....strong people, without any other superpowers, and thus more comparable to Bucky himself. And Bucky previously went toe-to-toe pretty evenly against Steve Rogers, who is a super-soldier with combat training and fighting skills which The Flagsmashers don't have.
     
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