Season 7, Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" Discussion Thread

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think the show has established there being any more Lannisters than the direct ones we were shown. The various Lannister cousins don't seem to be a thing outside of Lancel, so really I think the only one Cersei would have to answer to is Jaime.

But, it doesn't work that way. It's implied that there are other Lannisters. They're those fellows sitting at the war council in Season 2, one of them even got named (also the one who Jaime killed to escape presumably has a family).

Kinslaying has been established as a really big ****ing deal in this universe. Cersei cannot just blow up Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters be fine with it. Not without a scene explaining it. Also, then there's the whole bit about letting Castelry Rock fall.

The houses of the West aren't lemmings. There's got to be someone sane running the place. Like I said, consequences. This show used to have them. Now it forgets them because it's inconvenient.

 

[DACrowe]

But she didn't make enemies of the reach... she made enemies of the Tyrells... house tarly JOINED Cersei... now they have highgarden.... as for the panic in the streets... I for one would be scared ****less to do anything at all like that given she has ordered her men to kill anyone who talks negative about her and well.... she just blew up half a city... who knows what she is capable of.

There would be civil unrest. The show at least used to be based loosely on history. When people are starving, rioting ensues, even without wholesale slaughter.

And she did betray the Reach, and at least some months passed before Horn Hill joined her side. Enough time for Olenna Tyrell to travel to Dorne, side with Daenerys, and then for Varys to get back to Meereen and join Dany for another long boat ride to Dragonstone, where Olenna also had time to travel for a battle strategy session and then return to Highgarden.

That's at least several months, to be charitable, of Highgarden cutting off bread to King's Landing. There would be starvation and anger. I am not saying Cersei would be overthrown, but she would have to make the city live in fear. Instead, they are reveling and loving their new queen even though she killed a far more popular old one and condemned them to suffering as a result. It is more than a bit incredulous.

 

[Reek]

You say that as if there wasn't already PLENTY OF FOOD in Kings Landing. Did you forget how much wheat etc Olenna mentioned being brought to kings landing when discussing the royal wedding with tyrion? I'd imagine as long as Olenna and co were in KL... until the end of season 6.... they were still supplying food.

They had food. And Randyll Tarly sure was quick to show up when summoned... if he was in rebellion with the Tyrells, he wouldn't have.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You say that as if there wasn't already PLENTY OF FOOD in Kings Landing. Did you forget how much wheat etc Olenna mentioned being brought to kings landing when discussing the royal wedding with tyrion?

They had food. And Randyll Tarly sure was quick to show up when summoned... if he was in rebellion with the Tyrells, he wouldn't have.

Well, honestly Randyll Tarly showing up also struck me as a bit of dubious writing. Considering Cersei has no claim to the throne and he therefore does not owe her any loyalty, unless he was already plotting to overthrow the Tyrell's.

 

[DACrowe]

I don't think the show has established there being any more Lannisters than the direct ones we were shown. The various Lannister cousins don't seem to be a thing outside of Lancel, so really I think the only one Cersei would have to answer to is Jaime.

Yes, this is true. There was the one Jaime killed (out of character, honestly too) in season 2, so maybe is parents are around, maybe some siblings too. But if he's so unimportant for Jaime to murder, he's unimportant here. It is similar to how they streamlined the Tyrells to only be Olenna, Mance, Margaery, and Loras. The only Lannisters were Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel, and the "Baratheon" spawn. Now only Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion remain.

I honestly have no problem with no distant cousins challenging Cersei. She is past the point of giving any ****s about what anyone thinks of her, which is in character and fits the logic of the show.

But, it doesn't work that way. It's implied that there are other Lannisters. They're those fellows sitting at the war council in Season 2, one of them even got named (also the one who Jaime killed to escape presumably has a family).

Kinslaying has been established as a really big ****ing deal in this universe. Cersei cannot just blow up Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters be fine with it. Not without a scene explaining it. Also, then there's the whole bit about letting Castelry Rock fall.

The houses of the West aren't lemmings. There's got to be someone sane running the place. Like I said, consequences. This show used to have them. Now it forgets them because it's inconvenient.

Again, Cersei gives no more ****s about anyone else. What are they going to do? Protest their queen who has the Lannister army? She isn't about to get Robb Stark'd by her bannermen. They have no play and she knows it. I mean look at how Republicans are mostly turning a blind eye to Trump likely colluding with Russia and throwing the executive branch into chaos. Other than the rare healthcare vote, they are just sticking their heads in the sand when they actually have the power to check some of this incompetence. It is hard to imagine feudal lords challenging the queen that already has their army working for her.

 

[Reek]

Well, honestly Randyll Tarly showing up also struck me as a bit of dubious writing. Considering Cersei has no claim to the throne and he therefore does not owe her any loyalty, unless he was already plotting to overthrow the Tyrell's.

See... this is a complaint i can get behind. Randyll and his stone cold honor.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Meanwhile, Ser Davos should work on his introduction speech.
What about : This is Jon Snow, King in the North, The Not Knowing, The Resurrected and Wildlings Lover.

 

[Reek]

"The Child Hanger" "Tongue Master" "Negligent Dog Owner"

 

[DACrowe]

You say that as if there wasn't already PLENTY OF FOOD in Kings Landing. Did you forget how much wheat etc Olenna mentioned being brought to kings landing when discussing the royal wedding with tyrion? I'd imagine as long as Olenna and co were in KL... until the end of season 6.... they were still supplying food.

They had food. And Randyll Tarly sure was quick to show up when summoned... if he was in rebellion with the Tyrells, he wouldn't have.

Randyll Tarly did not show up until Daenerys was already at Dragonstone. We saw Cersei complaining about it to him at court. Ergo, all those months I mentioned passed. And the Purple Wedding was years ago. Food is consumed, and the Tyrells likely always had their hand on the tap. It is simply a case of when they followed Martin, these sorts of things mattered. Now that they are moving at their own pace, they are skirting and ignoring such finer details.

 

[DACrowe]

Meanwhile, Ser Davos should work on his introduction speech.
What about : This is Jon Snow, King in the North, The Not Knowing, The Resurrected and Wildlings Lover.

Technically, he is the White Wolf and former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He should make sure those get added next time. He also has Bastard of Winterfell. But perhaps it is best not to lead with that.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Ex Lord commander but yes, that's not bad.
Jon Snow, King in the North, The White Wolf, The Not Knowing, The Resurrected, Wildling Lover and what's upon a time Commander of the Night Watch.

 

[Reek]

or as tormund would call him... "The Small Pecker"

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Small Pecker isn't a great title when introduced to Daenarys....if you know what I mean and I guess you do.

 

[Reek]

shes going to need to find a horse if she wants to match drogo.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

She has Drogon but that would be incest.
I was not here, I didn't say that.

 

[Roose Bolton]

But, it doesn't work that way. It's implied that there are other Lannisters. They're those fellows sitting at the war council in Season 2, one of them even got named (also the one who Jaime killed to escape presumably has a family).

Kinslaying has been established as a really big ****ing deal in this universe. Cersei cannot just blow up Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters be fine with it. Not without a scene explaining it. Also, then there's the whole bit about letting Castelry Rock fall.

The houses of the West aren't lemmings. There's got to be someone sane running the place. Like I said, consequences. This show used to have them. Now it forgets them because it's inconvenient.

Random Lannister from 5 seasons ago, whose entire screentime revolved around his incompetence and the general contempt Tywin held for him isn't going to step up and try to bring Cersei to task for Kevan's death. We've neither seen nor heard from the Lannister cousins in so long because ultimately they're unimportant to the story.

And the kinslaying, while a taboo in the books, seems to have been greatly reduced within the show canon. If there are any other Lannisters still around outside the main branch then there's little evidence to suggest that they'd refuse to have dealings with Cersei on that basis.

 

[godisawesome]

Yes, this is true. There was the one Jaime killed (out of character, honestly too) in season 2, so maybe is parents are around, maybe some siblings too. But if he's so unimportant for Jaime to murder, he's unimportant here. It is similar to how they streamlined the Tyrells to only be Olenna, Mance, Margaery, and Loras. The only Lannisters were Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel, and the "Baratheon" spawn. Now only Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion remain.

I honestly have no problem with no distant cousins challenging Cersei. She is past the point of giving any ****s about what anyone thinks of her, which is in character and fits the logic of the show.



Again, Cersei gives no more ****s about anyone else. What are they going to do? Protest their queen who has the Lannister army? She isn't about to get Robb Stark'd by her bannermen. They have no play and she knows it. I mean look at how Republicans are mostly turning a blind eye to Trump likely colluding with Russia and throwing the executive branch into chaos. Other than the rare healthcare vote, they are just sticking their heads in the sand when they actually have the power to check some of this incompetence. It is hard to imagine feudal lords challenging the queen that already has their army working for her.

Which is why I feel like they need to define the Westerlands military as a professional army that's not a true feudal one (or not contradict that image at a later date) if they're going to argue that Cersei, a woman (Strike 1 for a misogynistic feudal society) who was hated only a season ago and only really has the wyldfire to enforce fear in Kingslanding, who is clearly responsible for the death of her own family members (Strike 2 for breaking Machiavelli's rule on what you can't let fear become--hate) and who can abandon her family's ancestral fortress to the enemy (Strike 3 for making her family weaker than her neighbors in the Westerlands).

The show has established in the earlier seasons a fairly realistic sociological view of medieval society: we know that The North, The Riverlands, and The Reach (even in this episode) are all only as stable as the ruling family's House is seen by their nearest rivals. We knew that the Machiavellian rules of the Lannisters required maintaining a certain amount of plausible deniability and concealment, and that the Iron Bank felt certain only a few seasons ago that once Tywin was dead, the fear of the Lannisters would turn to hate or apathy.

Cersei's tactics and politics could only really work in a modern police state with tight propaganda control, and even then it's questionable that they'd manage it without some internal conflict. Feudal societies simply didn't think in terms of loyalty to the state; it was conditional loyalty to your superior in the feudal chain and to your personal lands.

And that's the heart of the argument for some fans; the sociological and political hurdles of the earlier scenes made simple conversations have very deep ramifications. Cersei speaking so lightly about the threat of Stannis because of her family money showcased how desperately naive her strategies were; Robb's seemingly tiny mistakes and flaws were magnified because guys like Karstark and the Boltons read major weaknesses there; the Freys pride in their actions at the Red Wedding acted to show how little control they had over the Riverlands when no one trusts them; and Tywin's willingness to pursue the path of least resistance all the time set up Joffrey's death at the hands of equally pragmatic Tyrells, the overall weakening of House Lannister, and his own death.

The show is still a really, really good fantasy spectacle and character drama. But it used to be a great political, social, fantasy and character drama.

 

[KevTravels]

Small Pecker isn't a great title when introduced to Daenarys....if you know what I mean and I guess you do.

after Drogo, she might be looking for something that won't stab her cervix

 

[Thundercrack85]

Which is why I feel like they need to define the Westerlands military as a professional army that's not a true feudal one (or not contradict that image at a later date) if they're going to argue that Cersei, a woman (Strike 1 for a misogynistic feudal society) who was hated only a season ago and only really has the wyldfire to enforce fear in Kingslanding, who is clearly responsible for the death of her own family members (Strike 2 for breaking Machiavelli's rule on what you can't let fear become--hate) and who can abandon her family's ancestral fortress to the enemy (Strike 3 for making her family weaker than her neighbors in the Westerlands).

The show has established in the earlier seasons a fairly realistic sociological view of medieval society: we know that The North, The Riverlands, and The Reach (even in this episode) are all only as stable as the ruling family's House is seen by their nearest rivals. We knew that the Machiavellian rules of the Lannisters required maintaining a certain amount of plausible deniability and concealment, and that the Iron Bank felt certain only a few seasons ago that once Tywin was dead, the fear of the Lannisters would turn to hate or apathy.

Cersei's tactics and politics could only really work in a modern police state with tight propaganda control, and even then it's questionable that they'd manage it without some internal conflict. Feudal societies simply didn't think in terms of loyalty to the state; it was conditional loyalty to your superior in the feudal chain and to your personal lands.

And that's the heart of the argument for some fans; the sociological and political hurdles of the earlier scenes made simple conversations have very deep ramifications. Cersei speaking so lightly about the threat of Stannis because of her family money showcased how desperately naive her strategies were; Robb's seemingly tiny mistakes and flaws were magnified because guys like Karstark and the Boltons read major weaknesses there; the Freys pride in their actions at the Red Wedding acted to show how little control they had over the Riverlands when no one trusts them; and Tywin's willingness to pursue the path of least resistance all the time set up Joffrey's death at the hands of equally pragmatic Tyrells, the overall weakening of House Lannister, and his own death.

The show is still a really, really good fantasy spectacle and character drama. But it used to be a great political, social, fantasy and character drama.

That sums it up really well. Either these writers don't get this, or don't care. I am going with the latter.

 

[godisawesome]

I think the latter probably does apply, but again, I can't really hold it that much against them.

They didn't go to HBO and to Martin to sell the idea of "We'll adapt all the books that you get published and then make our own scenes and plot lines up off the bullet points that Martin has written down for the entire finale." In a pretty significant way, D&D didn't start this show with the intention of doing their own core creative work. They intended to reread a highly successful and multi-faceted book series, one that Martin had done years, if not decades, of research and planning for, give script writers exact chapters to translate to screen, and occasionally have Martin himself write some episodes.

When they set out, they felt confident they had a solid framework upon which to manage casting, season storylines, and subplots and setting details. Then Martin did what he's done the last decade, and failed to finish the story. So what we're seeing now is their own original creative skills and impulses on display. D&D are comfortable and in their element with character interactions between the core GOT characters and with spectacle. They have a decent amount of storytelling and plotting details, but they don't really have the patience, natural aptitude, or time to focus on the semi-realistic political struggles and nuanced plot concoction that Martin had with years of prep-time.

They have all the pieces for the endgame, but whereas before Martin had set out and created a nice big chess rulebook for them to move the pieces along, they've had to make a checkers rulebook to do the same.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

It's the first time he met Missandei. Why would he be so suspicious about her?

It was something about her accent that got him asking questions.

Honestly, this show is stretching suspension of disbelief for me. Last season had some bad writing, but this is getting ridiculous. The show used to have internal logic.

I mean, the moment Cersei - an already fairly unpopular queen mother - blew up a good chunk of King's Landing, I would think there would be total anarchy in the streets. She should be dealing with riots and a revolution a la Nero. Then she crowns herself queen even though she has no claim. And somehow, everyone in King's Landing is cool with all of this.

I'm trying to figure out how the people would find out she did that? The only people who knew only realized it at the last minute and died in the attack. Oh...and Jamie probably knows.

Are the people watching the show too? That's the only way I can think of for them to find out. Other than rumors and conspiracy theories, they've got nothing.

"Tragic accident" sounds more feasible. And that sort of thing tends to bind communities together (see 911). If they did suspect anyone, it might just be the boy king who committed suicide right after it happened.

 

[BestGirl]

Even if there are other Lannisters out there they won't turn on her now, not when there's a foreign queen with dragons and a barbarian army on their shores.

 

[Kane52630]

New episode of Binge Mode is up...

https://theringer.com/binge-mode-c4ef7677c662

 

[Warhorse]

It's not fear, it's how things are for the common folks, they were not badly treated by the previous kings or even Aerys the mad king. They still have to serve their lords, nothing really change for them, being one king or another. It's all about lords business, the commoners just have to live with it.
If it was not for Robert's rebellion against the crown for a woman, Rhaegar would have been king after his father death and he was not a bad man.

This woman would be Lyanna Stark, right?

Hmmm, if Daenerys becomes aware of exactly who Jon Snow is, I wonder if she will feel some sort of resentment towards him.

 

[KingCheops]

The Mountain-who-does-not-Write gave D&D the major plot points and their resolutions for the entire series so on the one in a million chance that the books somehow finish (likely written by someone else based on notes) expect to see all of these exact same plot points.