Should Batman just Kill the Joker ?

[Batmannerism]

" I'll count the dead, one by one. I'll add them to the list, Joker. The list of all the people I've murdered by letting you live"

iconic words from The Dark Knight Returns.

People have very strong views on Batman's "one rule" which he seems to break, although usually indirectly. Although it seems for every villain he's killed over the years, a whole bunch of innocent people have also died.

Now there are many Batman enemies who have their own unique set of objectives and motivations, that have little to do with Batman - he's just incidental.
The Joker is the opposite, his motivations and objectives revolve around Batman. Every person he kills he kills to get at Batman.

Really, for someone that irretrievably twisted shouldn't Batman break his rule?

There are many good reasons for and against this. Time to talk about them.



Have to say, in Earth 2, when Batman puts a few rounds through the Joker's head, while he's in stasis, it's a bit of a relief.
Or in the Flashpoint movie, when Zoom (another murdering psychopath) is taunting Flash at the end, about how he's wrecked reality, and Batman puts a hollow point through the back of his head, I feel a certain satisfaction.


At present, I'm on team "Kill the Joker" , in fact, I think Batman should have killed him, after he killed Jason Todd, wayyy back in the day. But, I'm open to either argument.

While the Joker is an iconic villain, who has become part of popular culture, it is possible for him to die, and have another lunatic take up the mantle of Clown Prince of Crime, later on.

In fact, in the same way that if/when Batman dies, a new Batman rises (which DC have already done). I mean, Barry Allen stayed dead for 23 years and Wally took over, which worked brilliantly, and made Barry's sacrifice that much more powerful. Why not do this with the Joker?

As such, if the story were written carefully enough I think an arc that ended with Batman killing the Joker would be pretty amazing.

Having said all that, I'm not 100% convinced either way, so if you've got some thoughts, post 'em.

Cheers.

 

[THE J0KER]

many people, including myself, believe that batman kills the joker in the killing joke.

it's strongly hinted in the final panels, that batman snaps jokers neck, that's why the laughter stops.

 

[Bathead]

No way in hell. Batman does not kill, period. And don't use that lame "he killed in the beginning" excuse. And any innocent people that died, they died because the Joker killed them, Batman holds no blame for that, the Joker does.

 

[Bathead]

many people, including myself, believe that batman kills the joker in the killing joke.

And they (and you) would be wrong about that.

 

[THE J0KER]

And they (and you) would be wrong about that.

so how do you interpret the ending?

also, the whole book leads up to it..

notice the emphasis on the word "end"

and the laughter stops.

 

[Oswald]

I think you're approaching wrong this subject: the cuestion shouldn't be "Should Batman just kill the Joker?" but "Why Batman needs the Joker and doesn't leave him die?".

It's not just that Batman hasn't killed the Joker in the many opportunities he has had (except in The Dark Knight Returns, of course), but he has saved him lots of times (in the Under the Hood arc, in Cacophony of Kevin Smith, in The Dark Knight film...), and the big cuestion is: Why? Why not leave that sadistic psychopath just die as he truly deserves? And the answer is: because Batman needs him.

Bruce Wayne created the Batman persona to endure the trauma of his dead parents, cause attacking muggers at night dressed as a bat just calm his anxiety. But this is a very big anxiety, and he needs something so big to make him forget his trauma (dead parents). Here is where the Joker comes. The Joker is like a caricature of a bad man, the kind of caricature a kid understands as "the baddie", and Bruce Wayne is still a child, don't forget about it. The Joker is like his play partner, who gives him fuel to keep his will running (for example, killing the Robins). Without the Joker, Bruce would fall in the big depression he´s always bordering.

There's not doubt about this if you read Cacophony: in this comic Batman has the life of the psycho clown in his hands when other villain stabs him, and he can't let him die. In Under the Hood Batman saves him from Jason Todd without other reason than "I'm Batman, I save people". All this clues make me think Bruce hates the Joker superficially but deeply needs him, like his best enemy. He's the madman who gives sense to his own madness.

 

[jonathancrane]

Well said, Oswald.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Batman's role is not judge, jury and executioner. His duty is to get dangerous criminals off the street and let the justice system deal with them.

Let's be frank (pun not intended), Batman could've become the Punisher if he wanted to. Heck, he had the genius and natural athleticism to be a far better murderous vigilante than the Punisher himself.

But there is one major difference in their origins. Frank Castle blames the criminals themselves for taking away his family. Bruce blames himself. So Batman aims to redeem himself through his city and Punisher aims to clense his city through himself.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Also Batman didn't train to be a killing machine.

He trained specifically to avoid killing and guns.

He obviously feels strongly about it if he puts his life in danger every night going against armed criminals without any guns.

 

[The Batman]

Never have been, never will be a fan of the idea that Batman dosen't kill Joker out of some codependency for him.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Never have been, never will be a fan of the idea that Batman dosen't kill Joker out of some codependency for him.

That should be the reason the Joker won't kill Batman.

But Batman should spare the Joker due to a moral imperative.

 

[The Endless]

I've always thought his "moral imperative" was just contrived. It's because Joker is popular, that's it.

Why would anyone feel guilt or worry about becoming a monster themselves if they killed someone like Joker? I know i wouldn't. I sleep happily at night and wouldn't have any guilt.

Some ****ers just deserve to die. Joker is one of them.

 

[The Joker]

Never have been, never will be a fan of the idea that Batman dosen't kill Joker out of some codependency for him.

Don't worry, Batsy, I've never read any story that implies Batman doesn't kill Joker because of that. That's the Joker's reason for not wanting to kill Batman;

Aside from the obvious fact that Batman doesn't kill, he also doesn't kill the Joker because he feels that if he does, if he goes into that place then he'll never come back. It's not that he doesn't want to kill Joker. He does. He admits he does. He says he thinks about it every day. But he just won't for the aforementioned reasons. They even had him say so in the Under the Red Hood story, which was adapted into the animated movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRiX5Mh2YCo&t=1m13s

 

[The Endless]

But see i think the whole idea that if Batman kills Joker he'll lose his moral integrity and turn into a monster himself is pretty contrived and silly.

Why would you feel guilty about killing someone like the Joker? Why would that play on your mind? Why would that lead to you possibly becoming a monster yourself?

The Joker is beyond redemption, beyond rehabilitation. He's like a rabid dog. And like a rabid dog he should be put down.

But he won't be, because he's Batmans most popular villain and a pop culture icon in his own right. Simple as that.

 

[The Joker]

It's nothing to do with guilt. Batman happily admits Joker deserves to die, and he wants to kill him. Guilt is not in the equation. It's to do with him killing someone just because he thinks they deserve it. Even if they do that doesn't give him the right to take someone's life, any life.

Batman will never become that. It's also one of the main reasons why Jim Gordon has supported him;

Batman's not a killing vigilante. He would never take a life, even if they deserve to die a hundred times over.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Also if Batman kills him, the Joker wins.

The Joker would've forced Batman to be corrupted Joker by personal vengence and Batman would no longer be the antithesis of evil.

 

[The Endless]

I don't think it would be considered personal vengeance. It's justice. Joker deserves to die.

If the Joker was real and running around poisoning thousands of innocent people i'd be glad to hear a news report of him being killed.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But see i think the whole idea that if Batman kills Joker he'll lose his moral integrity and turn into a monster himself is pretty contrived and silly.

Why would you feel guilty about killing someone like the Joker? Why would that play on your mind? Why would that lead to you possibly becoming a monster yourself?

The Joker is beyond redemption, beyond rehabilitation. He's like a rabid dog. And like a rabid dog he should be put down.

But he won't be, because he's Batmans most popular villain and a pop culture icon in his own right. Simple as that.

In comics, they kill popular characters all the time.

Batman has accepted the role of protector not executioner.

Some people blur the line between the two but Bruce's parents being executed made him incapable of murder.

It's how he internalized that traumatic event. "Killing is wrong".

 

[The Endless]

I understand. It's made for some great stories and character moments.

But still, if i was living in Gotham i'd just want someone to put the dog down.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't think it would be considered personal vengeance. It's justice. Joker deserves to die.

If the Joker was real and running around poisoning thousands of innocent people i'd be glad to hear a news report of him being killed.

I think Batman wouldn't be opposed to the Joker getting the death penalty he just wouldn't want that blood on his hands after seeing his parents get murdered in cold blood decades ago.

 

[jonathancrane]

That should be the state, not Batman.

 

[Oswald]

You're forgetting not only Batman doesn't kill the Joker, but saves him one time and another and another... Because he needs him.

You're watching it wrong if you think Batman cares about the lifes of the people in Gotham. He cares JUST about him and his trauma, but there's the coincidence his trauma fits with the heroic intention of save and protect the innocents, and that make people confuse about Batman as a hero, when really he's another villain, or at least another unbalanced lunatic. If he really cared about people he would've never accepted any young boy as a sidekick, and he would've killed the Joker and other deranged murderers. He hasn't because they are actors in his paranoia, and he needs them to calm his anxiety, so simple. Everything he says about his reasons not to kill is ********, typical excuses from delusional people. The comics where he has been the nearest to the truth is Cacophony, in my opinion:

 

[Oswald]

Also, in the end of the Under the Hood arc, why he doesn't leave Jason Todd kill the Joker? He wouldn't break any of his rules, he just had to allow another person killing a monster beyond salvation... so why he doesn't?

The hard cold truth is because he needs the Joker as much as he needs Alfred or Gordon, because he's key to maintain his emotional and psychological (un)balance. Bruce wouldn't allow Alfred to be killed, right? So why allowing the Joker to be killed?

 

[The Joker]

You're watching it wrong if you think Batman cares about the lifes of the people in Gotham

No offense, but I stopped reading your post here.

 

[Oswald]

No offense, but I stopped reading your post here.

Can you explain me how Batman cares about people in Gotham? And I mean rationally, letting aside all the superhero paraphernalia that envolves him.