As I said before, it is called character development. And it is different. Batman didn't put Ra's on the train. As a matter of fact, in my opinion, Ra's was on a suicide mission because when he reached Wayne Tower with the microwave emitter, it would have exploded. At least he was aware of his possible demise.
And Batman deliberately threw the Joker off the building.
I'd say better "Why Batman doesn't let the Joker die?"
There are stories, bad stories, that handle this issue in a very stubborn way. Like having Batman going out of his way to save him, they all ring very false to me. It happens too, that authors doesn't understand the characters they write.
As I said before, it is called character development. And it is different. Batman didn't put Ra's on the train. As a matter of fact, in my opinion, Ra's was on a suicide mission because when he reached Wayne Tower with the microwave emitter, it would have exploded. At least he was aware of his possible demise.
And Batman deliberately threw the Joker off the building.
The Joker was also in a suicide mission, he acts like he's gonna die and doesn't care throughout the entire movie (he even laughs when falling from the building!), so this explanation doesn't serve to me. If life is sacred to Batman it's ALWAYS, no depending the situation or the person. Anyway, I think Nolan's Batman differs from the Batman of the comics in this aspect, which is key (Nolan's Batman isn't mad, to summarize).
There are stories, bad stories, that handle this issue in a very stubborn way. Like having Batman going out of his way to save him, they all ring very false to me. It happens too, that authors doesn't understand the characters they write.
You say this because you're watching it from a rational point of view, where the logical is letting the Joker die, but it happens Batman is mentally insane, something that looks almost everyone around here forgets.
Everything he's done to become Batman is well-calculated.
The extensive training, the gadgets, even the costume.
They're all strategies for his war on crime.
He's obsessed with fighting crime but other people are obsessed with careers or financial success so much that they build their entire life and identity around those goals.
It is a perspective that not everyone shares. I don't. I think Bruce Wayne as a character is a shattered person who channels his faults and defects into something good and useful. And yes, extreme. But he is not crazy.
I have a personal view that coincides with the Year One environment and the Nolan films. Batman is born out of a necessity. Gotham is beyond helping from the conventional law and order system, because that said system is corrupted. Batman rises above this, he has to because the situation demands it. He has the means and the abilities. He is a superhero to Gotham as much as Superman is a superhero to the world.
And didn't you read what I wrote? Batman threw the Joker off the building, the Joker didn't slip or threw himself. He "saved" him because he threw him in the first place, he is above killing at that point. And Ra's was willingly on the train, with no direct impulse from Batman.
Everything he's done to become Batman is well-calculated.
The extensive training, the gadgets, even the costume.
They're all strategies for his war on crime.
He's obsessed with fighting crime but other people are obsessed with careers or financial success so much that they build their entire life and identity around those goals.
Obsessive compulsive disorder with passive-aggressive suicidal tendencies, that's the principal, but he's also manic depressive (always struggling with the anxiety of his trauma, between the wrath and the grief), has sociopathic tendencies (he's total paranoid, don't trust anybody except his butler and perhaps Gordon), issues of repressed anger (he's violent just when dressing his costume) and, of course, serious problems with reality, and delusions about him being a Bat-Man who terrorizes criminals and his sidekicks the young innocents he has to protect, the batcave... Please, Bruce Wayne is still a 8 years old boy traumatized by his parents's murder, and the Batman paraphernalia is the complex and hyperbolic way he has to struggle with his pain.
I have a personal view that coincides with the Year One environment and the Nolan films. Batman is born out of a necessity. Gotham is beyond helping from the conventional law and order system, because that said system is corrupted. Batman rises above this, he has to because the situation demands it. He has the means and the abilities. He is a superhero to Gotham as much as Superman is a superhero to the world.
Yes, the corrupts and mobsters were changed by deranged psychopaths in costumes (because the vast majority of crazy villains appeared after Batman)... What a fantastic change, isn't it?
And didn't you read what I wrote? Batman threw the Joker off the building, the Joker didn't slip or threw himself. He "saved" him because he threw him in the first place, he is above killing at that point. And Ra's was willingly on the train, with no direct impulse from Batman.
No, the Ra's Al Ghul's plan was carrying the microwave to the Wayne Tower to reach the center of the city's water and evaporate it all, but he didn't have to die, just carry the machine there. Bruce destroyed the railway lines so the train couldn't arrive, and then let his mentor die in the destruction he had purposely caused. So he's directly responsable for his dead, in the same way he'd be responsable for Joker's dead if he hadn't caught him in the air at the end of The Dark Knight.
Ra's Al Ghul smashed the brakes on the train. Hence he sealed his fate. Batman didn't put him on the train. He didn't smash the brakes. He went up to the train to physically stop it, that's when Ra's smashed the brakes. That's why Batman had Gordon as back up to blow the tracks in case he failed to stop the train manually.
Ra's put the train on a fatal collision course. Joker didn't throw himself off the building. It's apples and oranges.
Yes, the corrupts and mobsters were changed by deranged psychopaths in costumes (because the vast majority of crazy villains appeared after Batman)... What a fantastic change, isn't it?
Well, that's escalation. It was a side-effect, but as much as he "inspired" these freaks, he also inspired so much good. See for example the good person Dick Grayson becomes in the comics. He is the epitome of triumph for Batman. He is what Batman would have become... if he had a Batman to guide him through pain.
If he really terrorized criminals there wouldn't be crime in Gotham, and that isn't the case. In fact he attracts more criminals than the ones he repels. And about the sidekicks, yes, in fact he has some orphans he adopts to put in danger and risk their lifes in situations not suitable for their age. I don't see it very sane, really.
Seriously, Bruce Wayne does have issues, but they don't detach him from reality. In fact that reality is the reason he does the things he does.
What reality? The reality of a thief who killed his parents when he was a child? What relation has that fact with the surrounding reality of Bruce Wayne, apart of the general "crime" stuff, which is so big and indeterminate that can entertain him all his life?
Obsessive compulsive disorder with passive-aggressive suicidal tendencies, that's the principal, but he's also manic depressive (always struggling with the anxiety of his trauma, between the wrath and the grief), has sociopathic tendencies (he's total paranoid, don't trust anybody except his butler and perhaps Gordon), issues of repressed anger (he's violent just when dressing his costume) and, of course, serious problems with reality, and delusions about him being a Bat-Man who terrorizes criminals and his sidekicks the young innocents he has to protect, the batcave... Please, Bruce Wayne is still a 8 years old boy traumatized by his parents's murder, and the Batman paraphernalia is the complex and hyperbolic way he has to struggle with his pain.
1) obsessive compulsive disorder - Bruce is obsessive but not compulsive. His obsession is goal oriented and productive. Someone who is compulsive has repetitive behaviors that cripple their day to day activities.
2) passive aggressive suicidal tendencies - Batman would be dead long ago if he were suicidal in any way. He has to use every ounce of cunning and skill he has to survive the extremely dangerous scenarios who faces night to night.
3) manic-depressive - This is a crippling condition also. The depression wouldn't allow Batman to be on call every night. The mania would cause Batman to lose his cool and cold demeanor which allows him to go on missions with exact precision and calculation.
4) paranioa - Batman has good reason to be paranoid. If someone discovers his secret identity his entire life's mission could be destroyed. He's no more paranoid than a spy who lives a double life.
5) sociopath - Batman definitely has a moral compass. He commits selfless acts to save others all the time and only commits violence out of pure necessity.
6) the Batman theme - this may seem strange but it's part of a calculated plan to create symbols that create fear in the criminal underworld and inspire the citizens of Gotham.
7) uses children as sidekicks - I can't really defend this except to say normally these side kicks are prodigies who have no family so they are capable of making adult decisions and commit to Batman's mission. Outside of that Robin was created to sell more comics to kids.
Well, that's escalation. It was a side-effect, but as much as he "inspired" these freaks, he also inspired so much good. See for example the good person Dick Grayson becomes in the comics. He is the epitome of triumph for Batman. He is what Batman would have become... if he had a Batman to guide him through pain.
Tell that to the (fictional) victims of the Joker and the other deranged villains (including the own family of Gordon, by the way). I'm sure the existence of Nightwing compensate all his dolor and loss
Ra's Al Ghul smashed the brakes on the train. Hence he sealed his fate. Batman didn't put him on the train. He didn't smash the brakes. He went up to the train to physically stop it, that's when Ra's smashed the brakes. That's why Batman had Gordon as back up to blow the tracks in case he failed to stop the train manually.
And the Joker put himself in the border of the top floor of a building to blow up two boats full of people, he also sealed his destiny. I don't see difference between this and Ra's Al Ghul case, but if you think otherwise ok, I'm not gonna try to convince you...
The difference is Ra's Al Ghul smashed the brakes of the train. He turned it into a death trap. Batman tried to stop it manually. Did Joker throw himself off the building? No. Did he have to be thrown to his death in order to be stopped? No, as TDK showed.
If he really terrorized criminals there wouldn't be crime in Gotham, and that isn't the case. In fact he attracts more criminals than the ones he repels. And about the sidekicks, yes, in fact he has some orphans he adopts to put in danger and risk their lifes in situations not suitable for their age. I don't see it very sane, really.
You could say that of many other superheroes. We are talking about comic-book exaggerations. Besides, isn't crime escalation a thing on itself?
And as for side-kicks, well I can give you that point but it has to do more with the medium in which the events are presented. For example: A child Robin would not be presented in a Nolan film context.
Oswald said:
What reality? The reality of a thief who killed his parents when he was a child? What relation has that fact with the surrounding reality of Bruce Wayne, apart of the general "crime" stuff, which is so big and indeterminate that can entertain him all his life?
I'm not talking about the reality of his origins. It is the context of the current time in which Batman surges. You know "the crime stuff" in which his existence is based. You use the term "entertainment" as if Bruce likes to being Batman. I don't think he does, in fact he strives for a city that doesn't need him. The indeterminacy is a matter of the medium too.
Tell that to the (fictional) victims of the Joker and the other deranged villains (including the own family of Gordon, by the way). I'm sure the existence of Nightwing compensate all his dolor and loss
So you are saying that he should stop being Batman in order to stop the Joker and let other things happen to the city. Batman has stopped the Joker before, he will do it again. He is greater than him.
And the Joker put himself in the border of the top floor of a building to blow up two boats full of people, he also sealed his destiny. I don't see difference between this and Ra's Al Ghul case, but if you think otherwise ok, I'm not gonna try to convince you...
Come on! That isn't even an opinion. As The Joker (the hypester), said before, Ra's sealed his fate destroying the controls of the train, leaving Batman with his only choice. I bet the Joker didn't expect that Batman threw him off the building, that's why he was laughing in the fall, he thought he won. He was dead wrong.
1) obsessive compulsive disorder - Bruce is obsessive but not compulsive. His obsession is goal oriented and productive. Someone who is compulsive has repetitive behaviors that cripple their day to day activities.
There is a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder where the patient rationalizes his obsessions and compulsions, and Bruce fits perfectly into this.
2) passive aggressive suicidal tendencies - Batman would be dead long ago if he were suicidal in any way. He has to use every ounce of cunning and skill he has to survive the extremely dangerous scenarios who faces night to night.
That's the reason he's a passive aggressive suicidal: he doesn't want to die by killing himself, but by letting others (criminals) kill him when fighting them.
3) manic-depressive - This is a crippling condition also. The depression wouldn't allow Batman to be on call every night. The mania would cause Batman to lose his cool and cold demeanor which allows him to go on missions with exact precision and calculation.
Obviously the Batman character is an hyperbole, and in reality no one would be able to do what he does, but he has all the symptoms of a manic depressive. I don't know, look the Frank Miller's comics, the Hush arc, The Man who laughs... There's tonnes of examples I can tell in detail in other moment.
4) paranioa - Batman has good reason to be paranoid. If someone discovers his secret identity his entire life's mission could be destroyed. He's no more paranoid than a spy who lives a double life.
With the difference he has put himself in that situation voluntarily, because he's paranoid and loves being paranoid.
5) sociopath - Batman definitely has a moral compass. He commits selfless acts to save others all the time and only commits violence out of pure necessity.
Being a sociopath doesn't mean not having morality, it means not fitting in society. And, honestly, I think is pretty difficult defend an adult man who dresses like a bat to punch people he doesn't know isn't a sociopath.
6) the Batman theme - this may seem strange but it's part of a calculated plan to create symbols that create fear in the criminal underworld and inspire the citizens of Gotham.
Rather is another childhood trauma, the fear he felt when he fell in the cave is the same fear he wants to inspire in criminals.
7) uses children as sidekicks - I can't really defend this except to say normally these side kicks are prodigies who have no family so they are capable of making adult decisions and commit to Batman's mission. Outside of that Robin was created to sell more comics to kids.
So you are saying that he should stop being Batman in order to stop the Joker and let other things happen to the city. Batman has stopped the Joker before, he will do it again. He is greater than him.
If he really wanted to save innocent people that's exactly what he would do, because he's the one reason the Joker kills. Without Batman there isn't Joker. But he isn't gonna do it, because he's as crazy as his enemy but in the opposite direction.
In regards to Oswald saying batman is selfish and doesn't care about other people. In the words of Amanda Waller in the episode Epilogue of JLU," I have never met someone who cares more about his fellow man than Bruce Wayne". Batman is a very selfless person. In regards to the topic on hand, I don't believe Batman should kill the Joker. As said by Gordon in "Hush" Batman is a symbol of hope and justice (although unorthodox) in Gotham. Think of all the kids in Gotham that look up to Batman, only for Batman to become a murderer. Also, as said by others, Oswald, your version of Batman is a figment of your imagination.
It depends on the situation. Batman going out of his way to find the Joker just because he felt a bit too angry one evening is one thing. There is no honor in taking another man's life (no matter how evil he may be) when you are internally weak and your negative emotions are controlling your actions. If Batman runs into a situation where he genuinely feels the need to execute the Joker, not to ease his negative emotions or anger but to actually save innocent lives, then that's different. Which bundle is more valuable? A personal moral code and the life of a mass murderer or dozens upon dozens of innocent lives? It doesn't make you "one of them" if your only intention is protect.
Remember in TDK Rises when Batman was shooting at the truck that was carrying the bomb? The driver was shot to death by Batman and Talia died from the crash that was intentionally caused by the dark knight. Batman ran into a situation where he felt that saving hundreds of thousands of innocent lives meant more than preserving his own personal moral code.
I know the "no killing" rule makes Batman special. It makes him appear as internally powerful regardless of the strongest temptations. It does take somebody of great strength to refrain from killing the Joker. Especially if he has the power to do so. It's not his responsibility to take away a life, no matter how destructive or evil the individual may be. It isn't his duty. But I don't believe it would corrupt Batman if he took away a life. As long as he is genuinely doing to protect and if there are no solutions to saving Gotham from the individual.
Some villains are no longer considered as a threat to society when they're locked up in Arkham. The Joker, in the other hand, will always be a threat. No matter where he is being kept or who is monitoring him. Executing him is the only solution. Another example where killing was acceptable was the time when Batman (in TDK) killed Harvey Dent. It wasn't out of anger or to feed his ego. It was because a child's life was in danger and he had to do what was required to save the boy from Two Face.
Obsessive compulsive disorder with passive-aggressive suicidal tendencies, that's the principal, but he's also manic depressive (always struggling with the anxiety of his trauma, between the wrath and the grief), has sociopathic tendencies (he's total paranoid, don't trust anybody except his butler and perhaps Gordon), issues of repressed anger (he's violent just when dressing his costume) and, of course, serious problems with reality, and delusions about him being a Bat-Man who terrorizes criminals and his sidekicks the young innocents he has to protect, the batcave... Please, Bruce Wayne is still a 8 years old boy traumatized by his parents's murder, and the Batman paraphernalia is the complex and hyperbolic way he has to struggle with his pain.
I'm with Oswald on the Batman-is-crazy angle. I'm not sure I agree on your particular diagnosis, as I'm not even remotely qualified to suggest what Batman's particular problems are, but boy he's certainly got them.
Call it what you like, but I've always believed that Batman was about 3 things, Rage, Guilt and Obsession. Those are his primary motivations.
I know very little about psychology, but to me that makes him nuts.
So I'm with you on the angle that Batman is not a sane person.
If Bruce was really sane, he'd use his billions to reduce unemployment, set up drug rehab centres and improve living conditions for urban poor, as well as lobby politicians to make sure laws are properly enforced, and new laws are enacted to reduce the power and resources of organized crime.
(where Dent mentions RICO, man, praise Nolan for bringing in the real world, whenever he can, and being clever enough to fool us into thinking the unreal might be possible).
But, Bruce doesn't do that. Instead he goes and beats up criminals, one at a time.
He takes on orphans and lost souls as helpers, but can never love them, nor
love a woman properly because those three things are standing in the way.
He has all the money in the world, but can only ever pretend to enjoy it - all he really cares about is his one-man war.
Here's a thought, in some ways if those things weren't Batman's motivations, the other explanation would be that he enjoys being Batman, and that would definitely make him crazy. As in, he gets a thrill from hurting people (which seems justified, as they are generally bad people) and dressing up in that costume (which still seems pretty crazy). IMO
My favourite take on the character, which best demonstrates those three aspects of the characters, was Miller's in Year ONe and Dark Knight returns
(which always makes me wonder how he got Batman so wrong later on ....ah well).
I think Bale and Nolan did a wonderful job of conveying those things on the screen. People laugh at the "Where's the trigger ?!!!" bit, but I got it, Batman's absolutely enraged and desperate, wish he'd hit Bane a few more times. Bane's taken everything he had, and about to destroy the only thing he still cares about -Gotham - he's pissed, and that's totally understandable.
I think that's why Bale went so far with the voice, because it's the voice of a rage-filled madman. Remember, "Where are they ?!!!!" (wish Nolan had let the Joker cough a little blood there).
You all can probably tell I'm on team Nolan, but what I think was one of the best elements of TDKR (which had a lot of good....and not so good, whereas TDK was pure magic !) anyway, one of the best elements is that it dared to end the story of Bruce Wayne, that he lets go of those three things and just becomes an ordinary person. That' s the most amazing bit of character development for any superhero.
That's what Moore does
at the end of "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrrow"
which was genius.
But back to the issue at hand. Maybe Nolan was trying (at the end of TDK) to reverse the ending of Batman '89, so instead of Batman basically causing the Joker to fall to his death, he saves him.
I guess we all know the real reason Bats doesn't kill the Joker, the Joker sells comics, he's just too popular. It doesn't matter where or when the Joker shows up, he's just too cool to die, probably the best comic book villain ever
(well at least the best DC villain ever !)
Anyone aware of Elseworlds or other non-canonical (I laugh at that because how can DC have canon since it reboots it entire universe on a reasonably regular basis ) instances of Batman killing the Joker ?
Well other than "The Nail"
although given that the Joker is a murdering psychopath, in any reality, it's always seem funny to me that the media are able to make Batman look like an even bigger monster for killing him. Maybe we're conditioned to only accept that people are allowed to kill when they're wearing a badge or a uniform, but otherwise it's not okay e.g Zero dark 30, the Spec Ops dudes took out Bin Laden, who's responsible for thousands of deaths, and a lot of people cheer.
Batman kills the Joker, who's probably killed as many fictional people as Bin Laden, would we really think "That's so wrong, he's a vigilante, he can't go around killing people, he's a murderer !"
Now I'm not saying that's how things go, just a little comparison between real life and comics, just something that came to mind.
and this.....
For those that have mentioned it, it always pisses me off when Batman goes to great lengths to save the Joker, from someone else.
It just doesn't feel right.
There's a brilliant moment at the end of an old X-men graphic novel "God Loves Man Kills" (back when the X-Men were probably the best written super-team in comics, and I'm not a Marvel fan, so that's saying a lot). If you only ever read one X-men story in your life, read that one.
Anyway, there's this crazy evangelist using Professor X's powers amplified by a machine to wipe out all mutants worldwide (yeah, it came out in 1982, and was so awesome that Bryan Singer used it for the plot of the X2 movie).
So anyway, the X-men confront this evangelist in a stadium full of his followers, and he pulls a gun and is about to shoot Kitty Pryde, in front of everyone and...
none of the X-men do anything, a beat cop who's at the stadium on crowd control, shoots the preacher dead. It's magic, it works and it shows that ordinary people can still tell right from wrong. Anyway, because its an ordinary man who kills the bad guy, it works.
.
Maybe, in a similar way, a good story would be if some ordinary cop shoots the Joker dead, or some grieving relative of a victim. How does Batman deal with that ?
Of course, in "Another Nail" the Joker comes after Batman, while he's still in Hell. So there really is no getting rid of that guy.
Keep the comments coming Bat-fans, whether you guys agree or not, everyone's opinion is valid and it's just great seeing other sides of the debate. A bunch of stuff has come up that I'd never really thought of.
It looks I'm not so crazy in my vision of Batman, don't?
Maybe, in a similar way, a good story would be if some ordinary cop shoots the Joker dead, or some grieving relative of a victim. How does Batman deal with that ?
He would beat him, because Batman doesn't care about who is the killer, who is the victim or why it happens, he just cares about the act of killing, is the only thing which matters for him.
No he wouldn't. Because that either makes Batman a bad guy... or it suggests cops and soldiers are bad guys.
Batman would beat up a corrupt cop or soldier killing innocent people or being too trigger happy. But a cop or soldier just doing their jobs and taking out a deadly criminal?
Then why he doesn't let Jason Todd kill the Joker in the Under the Hood arch? He isn't a cop but has all the right of the world to do it, given the terrible pain the Joker inflicted him. Why Batman saves the Joker? I'll answer, cause he is against ANY kind of killing. That scene of that comic proves I'm right, and proves he would do exactly the same if a cop/soldier kills somebody (and it's difficult to find somebody who deserves more be killed than the Joker).
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