The Dark Knight Rises Should Bruce Wayne/Batman Die or Retire at the end?

[Ultimatehero]

Don't think it's realistic to retire. See cartoons and comics where he does - Gotham soon goes back to hell since they feel like they can commit crimes freely.

 

[DaveMoral]

I'm not opposed to those things like a black and gray Batsuit and a bleached Joker, but I wouldn't say that including enemies like Man-Bat or Mr. Freeze is really an issue of fidelity at all. As far as the spirit of Batman stories goes, Nolan's pretty much had it down.

I think those more out-there characters are pretty much defining of the world that Batman inhabits. Much as I like the kind of "what if" nature of Nolan's grounded take, I want to see a Batman that embraces the fantastical without being tongue-in-cheek about it. And this is especially true if WB is interested in building a cohesive movieverse. Sure, they'll be mimicking Marvel at this point but that's how the DCU became the DCU in the first place. If that's going to happen they have to let go of the Batman in our world thing and embrace a Gotham that is totally fictional. And I'm all about easing into that. For nearly a decade we have this more grounded Gotham, ease into the fantastical and more sci-fi Batworld. Make the real freaks, like Clayface or Killer Croc horror monsters. Approach it like that anyway. It's new to audiences and thus new to Batman and our entry into that kind of craziness.

Gotham is bad enough with the mob and corruption.... but the freaks and the psychos and the monsters... Gotham is a scary place and it has a living gargoyle as its protector. That is Batman's world.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I think those more out-there characters are pretty much defining of the world that Batman inhabits. Much as I like the kind of "what if" nature of Nolan's grounded take, I want to see a Batman that embraces the fantastical without being tongue-in-cheek about it. And this is especially true if WB is interested in building a cohesive movieverse. Sure, they'll be mimicking Marvel at this point but that's how the DCU became the DCU in the first place. If that's going to happen they have to let go of the Batman in our world thing and embrace a Gotham that is totally fictional. And I'm all about easing into that. For nearly a decade we have this more grounded Gotham, ease into the fantastical and more sci-fi Batworld. Make the real freaks, like Clayface or Killer Croc horror monsters. Approach it like that anyway. It's new to audiences and thus new to Batman and our entry into that kind of craziness.

Gotham is bad enough with the mob and corruption.... but the freaks and the psychos and the monsters... Gotham is a scary place and it has a living gargoyle as its protector. That is Batman's world.

Like I said, their absence is not an issue of faithfulness, because it's just a simple selection, just as it was with Burton and Schumacher.

I'd love to see a Batman-Superman/World's Finest film, but I was more than okay without it in the Nolan series since there weren't any other simultaneous ongoing series (with only two faliures to launch) for any crossover to happen.

 

[Troy_Parker]

I think those more out-there characters are pretty much defining of the world that Batman inhabits. Much as I like the kind of "what if" nature of Nolan's grounded take, I want to see a Batman that embraces the fantastical without being tongue-in-cheek about it. And this is especially true if WB is interested in building a cohesive movieverse. Sure, they'll be mimicking Marvel at this point but that's how the DCU became the DCU in the first place. If that's going to happen they have to let go of the Batman in our world thing and embrace a Gotham that is totally fictional. And I'm all about easing into that. For nearly a decade we have this more grounded Gotham, ease into the fantastical and more sci-fi Batworld. Make the real freaks, like Clayface or Killer Croc horror monsters. Approach it like that anyway. It's new to audiences and thus new to Batman and our entry into that kind of craziness.

Gotham is bad enough with the mob and corruption.... but the freaks and the psychos and the monsters... Gotham is a scary place and it has a living gargoyle as its protector. That is Batman's world.

This.

 

[Megarob]

I think those more out-there characters are pretty much defining of the world that Batman inhabits. Much as I like the kind of "what if" nature of Nolan's grounded take, I want to see a Batman that embraces the fantastical without being tongue-in-cheek about it. And this is especially true if WB is interested in building a cohesive movieverse. Sure, they'll be mimicking Marvel at this point but that's how the DCU became the DCU in the first place. If that's going to happen they have to let go of the Batman in our world thing and embrace a Gotham that is totally fictional. And I'm all about easing into that. For nearly a decade we have this more grounded Gotham, ease into the fantastical and more sci-fi Batworld. Make the real freaks, like Clayface or Killer Croc horror monsters. Approach it like that anyway. It's new to audiences and thus new to Batman and our entry into that kind of craziness.

Gotham is bad enough with the mob and corruption.... but the freaks and the psychos and the monsters... Gotham is a scary place and it has a living gargoyle as its protector. That is Batman's world.

I agree. It would be really cool to see that. I think it could offer something really good to the comic world. And it would be really fun to see the side of Gotham with clay face and killer croc, like you said, but to know it was going to actually be a goof movie would be even better!

 

[KalMart]

Don't think it's realistic to retire. See cartoons and comics where he does - Gotham soon goes back to hell since they feel like they can commit crimes freely.

This story version functions rather differently than a serial comic or cartoon...or even a show. In doing so, these storytellers have presented very rational reasons for Batman wanting to retire or find an end, which in turn reenforces the importance of the time that he is spending as Batman. It's not portrayed as something 'fun'...it's deadly, fraught with mental/emotional strain and injury, and hardest of all sacrifice.

But clearly...if Batman is to retire or stop, even die...it won't be because he's fed up and leaving. It'll be because he's confident his work is done and he's achieved what he set out to do. No, the world will never be completely free of crime...but if the people are all willing to take a stand against corruption, inequality, and worst of all indifference....he will have at least restored a concrete hope that had gone missing. This Batman is no nihilist. You don't get the sense that he actually wants to die in the ring someday....even though he risks just that each time he climbs in.

 

[Godzilla2014]

This story version functions rather differently than a serial comic or cartoon...or even a show. In doing so, these storytellers have presented very rational reasons for Batman wanting to retire or find an end, which in turn reenforces the importance of the time that he is spending as Batman. It's not portrayed as something 'fun'...it's deadly, fraught with mental/emotional strain and injury, and hardest of all sacrifice.

But clearly...if Batman is to retire or stop, even die...it won't be because he's fed up and leaving. It'll be because he's confident his work is done and he's achieved what he set out to do. No, the world will never be completely free of crime...but if the people are all willing to take a stand against corruption, inequality, and worst of all indifference....he will have at least restored a concrete hope that had gone missing. This Batman is no nihilist. You don't get the sense that he actually wants to die in the ring someday....even though he risks just that each time he climbs in.

Agreed.

 

[AnneFan]

But clearly...if Batman is to retire or stop, even die...it won't be because he's fed up and leaving. It'll be because he's confident his work is done and he's achieved what he set out to do. No, the world will never be completely free of crime...but if the people are all willing to take a stand against corruption, inequality, and worst of all indifference....he will have at least restored a concrete hope that had gone missing. This Batman is no nihilist. You don't get the sense that he actually wants to die in the ring someday....even though he risks just that each time he climbs in.

Indeed, good points. There is a theme in Batman media that he will only truly 'retire' when he's been taken out of the game. Killed or brutally injured to the point where he cannot go on. The theme of never giving up no matter what obstacle thrown at him, or letting go of personal pain. In TDK Returns, he states he's 20 or so years dead without Batman. In Ego, it's as if Batman is indeed a separate entity that exists inside him. So by Nolan actually finding a way to wrap up an arc, with Bruce finding peace within himself, is something that I find very interesting. I agree it wouldn't be quitting in this Nolan/Bale context at all.

 

[DaveMoral]

I just realized I'd like to see it left somewhat open ended. Right up to the end Bruce is basically thinking "this is my last hurrah" and we see him, perhaps alone without Alfred anymore(because frankly, I really want to see Alfred so distraught over what Bruce has put him through and his own failure to keep Bruce safe as per the trailer that he quits if Bruce isn't going to stop the madness), put all the gear away. Shut off the lights in the cave and walk away with some sense of relief and remorse. He's packing it up because his job seems to be over, but it's never outright said "I'm retiring." He just puts the stuff away, turns out the lights. I don't know if I'd want that to be the ending scene or if I'd want it to be just prior to the ending scene where we see Bruce Wayne, as Bruce Wayne, looking over a Gotham that is triumphantly rebuilding itself.

 

[tiger_a_K]

Batman will always be there for Gotham!

 

[Eastfist]

He can't die, otherwise, you guys won't watch it. WB learned to never do that again when they killed off Neo in the Matrix films.

 

[Nevincer]

He can't die, otherwise, you guys won't watch it.

Speak for yourself. Such a ballsy move would give me more reason to watch it.

 

[El Payaso]

I think a lot of fans would like a new filmmaker to be more of a fan of comics and comicdom, so to speak....and for that to translate more apparently to the screen.

That doesn't mean it would be a better/good film though.

 

[MrWayne]

My question when thinking of this topic is.. Who would be there to protect Gotham?

Given a scenerio where Gotham is rehabilitated into this utopia of heavenly goodness with all Gothamites doing there part to make it a better city to live, what about the "others"? What about people who dont live in Gotham and share their view of a better world who would like to see it burn like the LOS? According to Ra's they have been around for centuries, and I'm certain that when/if Bruce/Batman prevails at the end of this trilogy that there will still be pockets of LOS members around the world still at large. This is what they do.

My thing is that although there is a possiblity for Gotham City to be this place where a superhero is no longer needed, what about outsiders who may come to Gotham and start trouble because they feel they can and there is no one around to stop them? Because they cant be reasoned with, bullied or negotiated with and just want to watch the world burn?

So Gotham may be a better place to live at some point. But the world still isnt. With Batman dead or retired, who then would be there to be the watchful protector?

Perhaps in Nolans vision these variables arent considered because this trilogy is just the story of a man trying to save a city while getting closure on his past.

 

[Nevincer]

Well, I think the idea is that Gotham would be able to stand up to people like the Joker now should they come along. There would be no need for a Batman because the will of the people would be strong enough to deal with terrorists, criminals and corruption on their own. At least, that's what I think. I'm really more of the idea that they'll leave it ambiguous and imply other dramatic examples could follow on from Batman.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

The key thing to remember is that they won't be continuing Nolan's take on Batman, or at least, that's what the plan is.

 

[MrWayne]

Well, I think the idea is that Gotham would be able to stand up to people like the Joker now should they come along. There would be no need for a Batman because the will of the people would be strong enough to deal with terrorists, criminals and corruption on their own. At least, that's what I think. I'm really more of the idea that they'll leave it ambiguous and imply other dramatic examples could follow on from Batman.

Indeed... I see what your saying. Not sure I agree totally though since Joker wouldve blown up those two ferries (which I wouldve loved to have seen btw.. EPIC!) had he not wasted time trying to tell Batman his scar origin story lol But I see how Gotham would be able to stand up to certain would be criminals & terrorists but I also think the criminals in Batmans rogue gallery would be no match for the citizens of Gotham since they would be put in harms way where there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about.. unless they were Batman ... a la the ferries in TDK.

 

[Eastfist]

Speak for yourself. Such a ballsy move would give me more reason to watch it.

Hey, even Nolan has an employer that writes him his checks. If the dude wants to get paid, he has to do his job. But I always imagined Clint Eastwood playing Wayne in a live Batman Beyond though. Maybe, then, the context would be right for him dying.

 

[MrWayne]

I roll my eyes and smh at any mention of Batman Beyond...

If they were to EVER go down that road I would prefer they used a Clone Wars CGI animation for it. Then it has potential.

 

[Eastfist]

I roll my eyes and smh at any mention of Batman Beyond...

If they were to EVER go down that road I would prefer they used a Clone Wars CGI animation for it. Then it has potential.

I'd rather see it done real cheesy like American Ninja or Revenge of the Ninja. And with Batman with a faceplace with no exposed face. Look at how cool Snake Eyes looks in the new GI Joe.

 

[MrWayne]

If they kill Batman off in this it's guaranteed to have the same buzz as Joker gave TDK. People will flock to the box office in droves to see the hero die if done well...
If you kill him, they will come.

 

[Robin91939]

I think those more out-there characters are pretty much defining of the world that Batman inhabits. Much as I like the kind of "what if" nature of Nolan's grounded take, I want to see a Batman that embraces the fantastical without being tongue-in-cheek about it. And this is especially true if WB is interested in building a cohesive movieverse. Sure, they'll be mimicking Marvel at this point but that's how the DCU became the DCU in the first place. If that's going to happen they have to let go of the Batman in our world thing and embrace a Gotham that is totally fictional. And I'm all about easing into that. For nearly a decade we have this more grounded Gotham, ease into the fantastical and more sci-fi Batworld. Make the real freaks, like Clayface or Killer Croc horror monsters. Approach it like that anyway. It's new to audiences and thus new to Batman and our entry into that kind of craziness.

Gotham is bad enough with the mob and corruption.... but the freaks and the psychos and the monsters... Gotham is a scary place and it has a living gargoyle as its protector. That is Batman's world.

As a firm and proud supporter of Nolan and Nolan's world..... I FULLY support this post.

I love what Chris has done with the Batman Universe. The thing is, he's done it too well. Let me finish....


If WB wants to continue the Christopher Nolan Batman World at anytime, (perhaps a "Midquel" taking place in the 8 year gap), I'm all for it. But only if it's directed by Chris Nolan or David Goyer or Jonathan Nolan. They have placed their stamp on THAT vision of Batman. They've done it and done it perfectly....for anyone else to try and do their version of "Nolan's Batman" would just feel wrong.

For the next take, assuming (and it seems likely), that it's not part of the Christopher Nolan Batman World....let's go different. Now, this doesn't mean "do away with the realism"... No. But you can have realism and still have the fantastic. How? Create a world where the fantastic can seem real. Make a world where to the characters, this fantastic stuff is believable. Make me believe that this world exists. Give me that magical realism. Look at films like the Harry Potter Series. These existed in pure fiction worlds, but they lived in a world that was recognizable as our own. WB can do this with Gotham.

Give me a Gotham akin to Arkham City and less Chicago/Manhattan. Give me a black and grey suit and tell me it's kevlar and I'll believe you. Show me his car drive fast on the streets of a crowded city and I'll believe that he just avoids traffic. Show me Killer Croc and tell me he was born with a skin condition and I'll believe you.


While Nolan's Batman is INCREDIBLE and instantly recognizable as "MY BATMAN", I can also understand and appreciate that his is not "The ONLY Batman". Let those who are fans of the more Comic Booky Elements of Batman have their day. And it can still be done seriously and have the stakes be high.

As much as I love Liam Neeson's over all portrayal, I would love to see a Ra's al Ghul draped in a green cape and calling the Batman, "Detective".

As much as I've enjoyed Cillian Murphy's Dr. Crane, I would love to see a group of mobsters truly terrified to run into the Scarecrow, master of fear.

As much as I love Heath Ledger's Joker, I would love...... Actually for me it was pretty pitch perfect. (As was Aaron Eckhart's Two-Face).

But you get the idea. I'd LOVE to see a One Off film done by David Fincher with Victor Zsasz as the villain.

I'd love to see a big action Batman Film with Mr. Freeze done as a serious and tragic character.

I'd love to see what Zack Snyder could do with a two film direct translation of The Dark Knight Returns or Arkham Asylum.

There are SO many great stories that can be told. Sure, we can call the Nolan trilogy definitive...but that feels lazy. Let's call it what it is, purely and completely amazing....but let's aspire to have the next one be better!

I would love to see a world and a Gotham City that is unrecognizable to me, but that feels real because the characters believe it is. And that feels real because the dangers are real.

So, as far as the next wave of films, yeah....it's limitless.

-R

 

[MrWayne]

As a firm and proud supporter of Nolan and Nolan's world..... I FULLY support this post.

I love what Chris has done with the Batman Universe. The thing is, he's done it too well. Let me finish....


If WB wants to continue the Christopher Nolan Batman World at anytime, (perhaps a "Midquel" taking place in the 8 year gap), I'm all for it. But only if it's directed by Chris Nolan or David Goyer or Jonathan Nolan. They have placed their stamp on THAT vision of Batman. They've done it and done it perfectly....for anyone else to try and do their version of "Nolan's Batman" would just feel wrong.

For the next take, assuming (and it seems likely), that it's not part of the Christopher Nolan Batman World....let's go different. Now, this doesn't mean "do away with the realism"... No. But you can have realism and still have the fantastic. How? Create a world where the fantastic can seem real. Make a world where to the characters, this fantastic stuff is believable. Make me believe that this world exists. Give me that magical realism. Look at films like the Harry Potter Series. These existed in pure fiction worlds, but they lived in a world that was recognizable as our own. WB can do this with Gotham.

Give me a Gotham akin to Arkham City and less Chicago/Manhattan. Give me a black and grey suit and tell me it's kevlar and I'll believe you. Show me his car drive fast on the streets of a crowded city and I'll believe that he just avoids traffic. Show me Killer Croc and tell me he was born with a skin condition and I'll believe you.


While Nolan's Batman is INCREDIBLE and instantly recognizable as "MY BATMAN", I can also understand and appreciate that his is not "The ONLY Batman". Let those who are fans of the more Comic Booky Elements of Batman have their day. And it can still be done seriously and have the stakes be high.

As much as I love Liam Neeson's over all portrayal, I would love to see a Ra's al Ghul draped in a green cape and calling the Batman, "Detective".

As much as I've enjoyed Cillian Murphy's Dr. Crane, I would love to see a group of mobsters truly terrified to run into the Scarecrow, master of fear.

As much as I love Heath Ledger's Joker, I would love...... Actually for me it was pretty pitch perfect. (As was Aaron Eckhart's Two-Face).

But you get the idea. I'd LOVE to see a One Off film done by David Fincher with Victor Zsasz as the villain.

I'd love to see a big action Batman Film with Mr. Freeze done as a serious and tragic character.

I'd love to see what Zack Snyder could do with a two film direct translation of The Dark Knight Returns or Arkham Asylum.

There are SO many great stories that can be told. Sure, we can call the Nolan trilogy definitive...but that feels lazy. Let's call it what it is, purely and completely amazing....but let's aspire to have the next one be better!

I would love to see a world and a Gotham City that is unrecognizable to me, but that feels real because the characters believe it is. And that feels real because the dangers are real.

So, as far as the next wave of films, yeah....it's limitless.

-R

Agreed. I think exploring the 8 year gap is perfect and ripe for many or any direction they would like to go. But mainly it’s a reason to utilize Nolan’s realism backdrop sprinkled with the fantastical elements of freakdom in Gotham as it happened after TDK and this is when things where REALLY defining. It’s a perfect opportunity to keep the Batman machine going while telling some really great stories.

I mean, SO MUCH could have happened in 8 years. So many challenges Batman could have faced, so many crimes and stories to tell.
They could explore all the things that the movies couldn’t or didn’t. We could see Batman face all the so-called freaks that were starting to appear in Gotham. We could finally see Batman utilize his “great detective skills” in its entirety. It can go back in time and even show the things that happened between BB & TDK. But point blank, we’d get to see Batman be Batman. I just think it’s also a very good opportunity to give a lot of us comic-booky fans what they want.

I think the best way to do all of this would be to introduce a new animated series that explores all of this. The Clone Wars is a great example of how it could work.

I personally think the 8 year gap was an intentionally genius decision because it just leaves the door open for so many possibilities. And at the same time, it gives fans a way to still be connected to the Batman/Nolanverse long after the TDKR is done….

It’s gonna suck when this movie is over and we are going to want to have something else to look forward to where Batman is concerned.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

If they kill Batman off in this it's guaranteed to have the same buzz as Joker gave TDK. People will flock to the box office in droves to see the hero die if done well...
If you kill him, they will come.

Batman retiring and/or dying is indeed ballsy, and that always attracts the masses. Batman is mortal and human, the 'end' was coming at one point or another. It was inevitable. And what better director and cast to bring forth the conclusion of this story than the ones we have now with The Nolans, Christian Bale, Tom Hardy, Gary Oldman, Marion Cotillard, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, Anne Hathaway, etc.

 

[MrWayne]

Indeed. Nolans is an interesting take because for once we have a Batman who ages. He has human qualities like death and old age and the conditions that come along with those qualities. In this world Batman can absolutely not do this forever.

The end, as Mr. Smith so eloquently put it, "was inevitable" .