The Dark Knight Rises Should "Realism" be lightened up a bit?

[Mr. Earle]

that doesn't make it wrong though. again, if you would just stop arguing that batman in tdk is flat out wrong and that instead it simply isn't your taste or idea of what a batman movie should be then i have no issue with you.

It is my taste, just as long as its not just that and i can get different stories too. I want Batman to be able to face everyone from the mob to Darkseid. As Crook pointed out to me its still possible even in the Nolanverse.

As for being wrong, well i think that Nolan is wrong to take his realism too far on certain occasions like Ras' immortality, or Batman's urban legend status which imho was destroyed in TDK. He didnt set out to be Rambo, but a monster.

lets stick with new frontier and that quote here. " i set out to scare criminals, not kids." ok, so if it is in fact the costume that creates the fear how then is it that batman can have a costume that is simultaneously terrifying to nare-do-wells yet entirely kid friendly? he can't, it's a paradox. therefore there must be something more to the intimidation than just a costume.

Batman specifically stated that he changed his suit for that reason. It makes no sense i know, but at least they abide by the law that says that he is intimidating.

also, "jl:the new frontier" isn't nearly as good as "the new frontier" the comic it's based on.

I havent read the comic but i didnt like the movie.

i suspect (and please correct me if i'm wrong) that you've only recently (i.e. within the last 3-4 yrs) begun reading the actual comics and not just basing everything off of television shows and movies. that would explain to me your somewhat limited view of how batman is percieved among other things. if this is the case i and many other posters here would be happy to suggest books for you to read that will help broaden your understandingt:

that's not to say that your opinions are necessarily wrong, they're not, just a bit under-informed

I ve been reading comics for about 4-5 years indeed and i've read quite a lot so far. But when you have so many heroes that you like (Bats, Supes, GL, WW, Spiderman, Ironman, Cap, etc) each with his own huge continuity, its hard to read everything. Of all the heroes i've read the most about Batman and his supporting characters (Nighwing, Robin and a few Batgirl issues).

However, I dont think that the topic at hand requires me to have read more on him. If anything, i am the one asking that Nolan adopts a more open minded view on the character.

As to why i am using BTAS for my arguements, well 1) most people have watched it, 2) its a very balanced take on the character, 3) its easy to find videos of it on youtube to back up my arguements. For example instead of directing a fellow poster to read Year 3 or Dark Victory (which he probably never will), i can easily post the specific episode from "The Batman" that introduced Robin and which was great btw.

 

[Mr. Earle]

No. Because his latest movie proved he knew how to direct a complex narrative, as well as making it large-scale and accessible to a wide audience. He's very similar to Peter Jackson in this regard.

The billion dollars is just bragging rights. Gore Verbinski also made a billion dollar movie, but I can assure you he isn't going to be considered a long-term A lister like Nolan is setting himself up to be.


And why is he coming back for a THIRD Batman when he doesn't have to? Moreover why would he bother to further EXTEND his association to the genre by APPROACHING Warner Bros. for a Superman franchise? C'mon bro, you're reaching far beyond your limits here. The guy clearly is fascinated with the genre. Don't let your bias against his views cloud that fact.


He already loved the character. That's why he went to WB in the first place. One of his first interviews regarding Batman, he stated he had a connection to the character during his teen years. It faded into adulthood, but re-ignited when he realized he had an opportunity with WB to reimagine the character. Again, one does not put that much love and work into a character he isn't fond of.

Maybe i am wrong but Nolan seemed like the guy who would raise his nose to the comics. His reluctance to embrace anything other than the serious parts of the mythos further points to that conclusion. Then there was Goyer stating that he stopped Nolan from removing the cape and grapple gun....

Does he love the character? Sure. But his version of the character which is like the 20% of the mythos.

Dont get me wrong, i love the guy, but i think TDK took some things too far. Like Burton with Returns and Schumacher with B&R, TDK was Nolan unleashed.

 

[lixdexia]

It is my taste, just as long as its not just that and i can get different stories too. I want Batman to be able to face everyone from the mob to Darkseid. As Crook pointed out to me its still possible even in the Nolanverse.

Batman specifically stated that he changed his suit for that reason. It makes no sense i know, but at least they abide by the law that says that he is intimidating.

...did you change you point or abandon it here? i can't tell. yes he was still supposed to be intimidating, thus proving that it isn't just the suit within the context of your example.

I havent read the comic but i didnt like the movie.

well then you probably won't like the book, it's a fun read though if somewhat spastic.

I ve been reading comics for about 4-5 years indeed and i've read quite a lot so far. But when you have so many heroes that you like (Bats, Supes, GL, WW, Spiderman, Ironman, Cap, etc) each with his own huge continuity, its hard to read everything. Of all the heroes i've read the most about Batman and his supporting characters (Nighwing, Robin and a few Batgirl issues).

However, I dont think that the topic at hand requires me to have read more on him. If anything, i am the one asking that Nolan adopts a more open minded view on the character.

As to why i am using BTAS for my arguements, well 1) most people have watched it, 2) its a very balanced take on the character, 3) its easy to find videos of it on youtube to back up my arguements. For example instead of directing a fellow poster to read Year 3 or Dark Victory (which he probably never will), i can easily post the specific episode from "The Batman" that introduced Robin and which was great btw.

my point here is that you have a very close minded definition of what a more open minded interpretation of batman is and that by reading more books you could open that up some more.

1- the batman and btas are 2 different shows...you switched mid sentence there.
2- the only specific uses of btas refs i've seen you use either only circumstantially supported a claim you've made or outright disproved your claim. i'd suggest going back and watching these again before citing them as support...plus, it's fun

 

[Crook]

While people in the DCU now know how he looks like, his appearence remains a terrifying one. Otherwise we should just assume that Bruce is stupid and doesnt know how bats look like.
In the recent "Battle for the Cowl" Dick asked the fellow members of the JL to keep Bruce's death a secret so that people wouldnt find out that he was just a man. "Most of them think he is an alien, a mutant, a vampire" he said, adding that Batman is more than a man and that he would take up the mantle and carry on the task. Besides, if a were an average joe in the DCU and this Bat guy was pulling the feats that he does I'd assume that he was Superman's goth brother!

But i digress. The point was whether Batman looks scary and he supposedly does.

Recognizing him as a man in a suit as opposed to some mythical creature is a consequence of Bruce interacting with these people face-to-face. There is no other way to address it once you cross that line. Every single one of Batman's rogues gallery knows he is a man. In TDK's world, Maroni is part of this group.

They were ridiculous characters and they gave them some substance. Its different from changing already great characters to their whims or "vision".

Oh my god, you are BACKPEDALING! Wtf?!

Read your original statements. You were criticizing altering character histories and deviating from the norm. That is exactly what I gave you. Don't pile on extraneous bullcrap...

Maybe i am wrong but Nolan seemed like the guy who would raise his nose to the comics. His reluctance to embrace anything other than the serious parts of the mythos further points to that conclusion.

Mhm. So where does signing up for Superman, effectively taking up HIS time (for probably another decade if it's popular), when he has no obligation to do so, fit in this equation?

Then there was Goyer stating that he stopped Nolan from removing the cape and grapple gun....

Show me.

Does he love the character? Sure. But his version of the character which is like the 20% of the mythos.

Well apparently it's a pretty sizable 20%, because the fandom loves it. Don't make me bring up quotes on TDK from your favorite writers!

 

[Mr. Earle]

...did you change you point or abandon it here? i can't tell. yes he was still supposed to be intimidating, thus proving that it isn't just the suit within the context of your example.

I didnt change, nor abandon my point. My point is that Batman is scary and JL:TNF and BTAS treated him like that. The changing the suit part was stupid and they probably didnt think it through.

my point here is that you have a very close minded definition of what a more open minded interpretation of batman is and that by reading more books you could open that up some more.

I do? While i havent read everything, i have read comic books from a variety of writers and eras, from grimdark 90ies issues to silly Silver Age ones so i think i've seen quite a few interpretations of the character.

1- the batman and btas are 2 different shows...you switched mid sentence there.

I know. It was an example because i recently used "The Batman" to defend Robin. I rarely use that show though.

2- the only specific uses of btas refs i've seen you use either only circumstantially supported a claim you've made or outright disproved your claim. i'd suggest going back and watching these again before citing them as support...plus, it's fun

Didnt that video i posted above prove my point? Wasnt Alfred scared by Bruce once he put the cowl on? In real life one would laugh but its not real life, its a comic book and if one of the smartest men on earth claims that the batsuit is scary, it is scary.

 

[lixdexia]

I didnt change, nor abandon my point. My point is that Batman is scary and JL:TNF and BTAS treated him like that. The changing the suit part was stupid and they probably didnt think it through.

your orginal point was that it was the suit that made him scary. you evidence to support this was that they put him in the new look suit, a much brighter campier costume, and he was still scary...and you don't see how your evidence not only doesn't support your claim but outright contradicts it?

the changing the suit wasn't stupid and it was very planned. i think you missed the point of new frontier, which was that it was the progression of dc comics from the of world war 2 mystery men to the age of camp cool cops in costumes, the change in batman's attire was a direct representation of this.

I do? While i havent read everything, i have read comic books from a variety of writers and eras, from grimdark 90ies issues to silly Silver Age ones so i think i've seen quite a few interpretations of the character.

yes, you do. knowing that different interpretations exist and even having read a few of them is not the same as understanding them.

I know. It was an example because i recently used "The Batman" to defend Robin. I rarely use that show though.
Didnt that video i posted above prove my point? Wasnt Alfred scared by Bruce once he put the cowl on? In real life one would laugh but its not real life, its a comic book and if one of the smartest men on earth claims that the batsuit is scary, it is scary.

circumstantially...somewhat. though alfred did recoil in initial shock at seeing batman you forgot to post every other clip of alfred from the entire series in which he does not.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Recognizing him as a man in a suit as opposed to some mythical creature is a consequence of Bruce interacting with these people face-to-face. There is no other way to address it once you cross that line. Every single one of Batman's rogues gallery knows he is a man. In TDK's world, Maroni is part of this group.

I understand that, but he's still a man in a terrifying suit. Anyway...

Oh my god, you are BACKPEDALING! Wtf?!

Read your original statements. You were criticizing altering character histories and deviating from the norm. That is exactly what I gave you. Don't pile on extraneous bullcrap...

No i am not backpedaling. Its one thing to fix Crazy Quilt (Freeze was just as campy and useless before BTAS if i am not mistaken) so that you can use him in a good story and another to take the goddamn Ras and change him so much. I loved Nolan's Ras to be honest but they should have left his immortality intact. Too unrealistic for ya Nolan?

Mhm. So where does signing up for Superman, effectively taking up HIS time (for probably another decade if it's popular), when he has no obligation to do so, fit in this equation?

Maybe he warmed up to superheroes? Besides, he will be mentoring the project, not directing it himself.

Show me.

I googled but only found this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372784/trivia

Director Christopher Nolan originally didn't want to give Scarecrow a mask. Screenwriter David S. Goyer was able to talk him into it.

I am pretty sure i am right about the cape and grapple gun though.

I also found this irrelevant but funny trivia:

Christian Bale revealed in interviews in 2009 that in his first ever scene with Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman (one involving Bale waking up in bed to find them waiting there), he fell asleep after getting ready for the scene. Bale described waking up to find Michael Caine poking him the ribs, saying "Look at that! He's bloody fallen asleep".

Well apparently it's a pretty sizable 20%, because the fandom loves it. Don't make me bring up quotes on TDK from your favorite writers!

So? It doesnt change the fact that its only a small percentage of what the comics Batman is.

 

[Mr. Earle]

your orginal point was that it was the suit that made him scary. you evidence to support this was that they put him in the new look suit, a much brighter campier costume, and he was still scary...and you don't see how your evidence not only doesn't support your claim but outright contradicts it?

My point was that JL:TNF presented Batman's suit as scary. I just recited the dialogue to remind you of the scene.

the changing the suit wasn't stupid and it was very planned. i think you missed the point of new frontier, which was that it was the progression of dc comics from the of world war 2 mystery men to the age of camp cool cops in costumes, the change in batman's attire was a direct representation of this.

Maybe the comics had that theme, but i dont think the movie did. It was basically a Hal origin story. It bored me to death so i didnt pay much attention to it to be honest.

Batman's change of suit was stupid in the context that making the gloves longer and the ears shorter wouldnt make him kid friendly while also keeping him scary for the criminals. If he looked like Azbats before the change i would have understood it. Anyway, this is off topic. Lets forget it.

yes, you do. knowing that different interpretations exist and even having read a few of them is not the same as understanding them.

I think i understand how the various eras of the comic book industry worked. In any case i was furious that Nolan put Batman in a corner when the current comics Batman is so much "richer" than that. So...

circumstantially...somewhat. though alfred did recoil in initial shock at seeing batman you forgot to post every other clip of alfred from the entire series in which he does not.

Oh come on now. If your brother/sister dresses in a truly scary halloween costume wouldnt you be scared the first time but ignore it from then on? Its the same thing. Batman's ridiculous costume was scary to Alfred due to the laws of this franchise. If one of the smartest men on earth dresses like that to be scary, then you bet your ass he is scary. But you wouldnt buy a comic book with a guy dressed like Manbat would you? Just suspend your disbelief since the costume looks cool.

 

[lixdexia]

My point was that JL:TNF presented Batman's suit as scary. I just recited the dialogue to remind you of the scene.
Maybe the comics had that theme, but i dont think the movie did. It was basically a Hal origin story. It bored me to death so i didnt pay much attention to it to be honest.

Batman's change of suit was stupid in the context that making the gloves longer and the ears shorter wouldnt make him kid friendly while also keeping him scary for the criminals. If he looked like Azbats before the change i would have understood it. Anyway, this is off topic. Lets forget it.

no, lets not. explain to me how directly contradictory evidence supports your claim? because if you can convince me of that then you have quite the career as a lawyer ahead of you.

I think i understand how the various eras of the comic book industry worked. In any case i was furious that Nolan put Batman in a corner when the current comics Batman is so much "richer" than that. So...

how has nolan put batman in a corner? you keep saying this but your only support has been "robin etc. can't exist now" which you've just said crook has convinced you isn't the case.
and the reason the comics batman is richer is because he's had 70 yrs of stories to develop in. this goes back to my point with tas, name any 2 stories that on their own represent batman exactly how you wish to see him. on their own, they can't need any previous knowledge or they don't count. i defy you to do this.

Oh come on now. If your brother/sister dresses in a truly scary halloween costume wouldnt you be scared the first time but ignore it from then on? Its the same thing. Batman's ridiculous costume was scary to Alfred due to the laws of this franchise. If one of the smartest men on earth dresses like that to be scary, then you bet your ass he is scary. But you wouldnt buy a comic book with a guy dressed like Manbat would you? Just suspend your disbelief since the costume looks cool.

exactly my point. many of the thugs batman runs into are repeat offenders, you expect them to have the same reaction of shock everytime they see the suit? that's just unreasonable unless there's something the suit represents that instills that fear. your argument here is that the suit is what scares folks, so by that logic a paraplegic in the suit is equally as frightening as bruce in the suit.

 

[Crook]

No i am not backpedaling. Its one thing to fix Crazy Quilt (Freeze was just as campy and useless before BTAS if i am not mistaken) so that you can use him in a good story and another to take the goddamn Ras and change him so much. I loved Nolan's Ras to be honest but they should have left his immortality intact. Too unrealistic for ya Nolan?

Look at your original posts on the subject. You've tacked on another point that changes your original argument. That is backpedaling.

Maybe he warmed up to superheroes? Besides, he will be mentoring the project, not directing it himself.

He warmed up to superheroes? He looks down on the genre, but WILLFULLY goes to the studio and PROPOSES a new idea for a franchise he had nothing to do with.

There's clearly nothing I can say here. You'll twist every fact to suit your own vendetta for some reason.

I am pretty sure i am right about the cape and grapple gun though.

The rumor has been persistent for 3 years but no information exists?

So? It doesnt change the fact that its only a small percentage of what the comics Batman is.

So? It doesn't change the fact that there's a crapload of people that like that completely arbitrary percentage.

 

[Mr. Earle]

no, lets not. explain to me how directly contradictory evidence supports your claim? because if you can convince me of that then you have quite the career as a lawyer ahead of you.

What contradictory evidence?

how has nolan put batman in a corner? you keep saying this but your only support has been "robin etc. can't exist now" which you've just said crook has convinced you isn't the case.

Notice how i say that i "was" furious at Nolan, etc, etc... I dont think so anymore. Sure Nolan is working on his specific version of choice, but Miller did the same with YO.

and the reason the comics batman is richer is because he's had 70 yrs of stories to develop in. this goes back to my point with tas, name any 2 stories that on their own represent batman exactly how you wish to see him. on their own, they can't need any previous knowledge or they don't count. i defy you to do this.

Why should i do all this with BTAS episodes? Maybe there are no BTAS episodes that fit these criteria. Personally i'd like to see a Batman like Morrison's. Perhaps with not as much Silver Age in him, but close enough.

exactly my point. many of the thugs batman runs into are repeat offenders, you expect them to have the same reaction of shock everytime they see the suit? that's just unreasonable unless there's something the suit represents that instills that fear. your argument here is that the suit is what scares folks, so by that logic a paraplegic in the suit is equally as frightening as bruce in the suit.

You re being pedantic. Of course Bruce's act helps too.

He warmed up to superheroes? He looks down on the genre, but WILLFULLY goes to the studio and PROPOSES a new idea for a franchise he had nothing to do with.

There's clearly nothing I can say here. You'll twist every fact to suit your own vendetta for some reason.

I have no vendetta. I am just saying that it was Goyer's ideas and he is lending him a hand since he was intrigued them. Goyer has helped him a lot in the past and perhaps he asked him to help him negotiate with WB. Who knows how it actually went?

I am not prejudiced, i'm just saying that Nolan isnt really really involved in the project. We'll see how far he get involved in the future.

The rumor has been persistent for 3 years but no information exists?

I just did a short google search with the words "goyer", "nolan", "cape" and "grapple gun". Maybe its there maybe its not.

 

[lixdexia]

What contradictory evidence?

the quote from new frontier you cited as proof that it is the suit that is the intiditator and not batman himself which was intended to show the opposite point.

Notice how i say that i "was" furious at Nolan, etc, etc... I dont think so anymore. Sure Nolan is working on his specific version of choice, but Miller did the same with YO.

i'm noticing how you keep changing which side of an argument you're on...

Why should i do all this with BTAS episodes? Maybe there are no BTAS episodes that fit these criteria. Personally i'd like to see a Batman like Morrison's. Perhaps with not as much Silver Age in him, but close enough.

actually that post was meant to open up your selection of stories to any media. my point is that what you seem to be asking for is impossible in 2 self contained stories.

You re being pedantic. Of course Bruce's act helps too.

of course i'm being pedantic! this entire discussion is academic, there is option BUT to be pedantic...

I just did a short google search with the words "goyer", "nolan", "cape" and "grapple gun". Maybe its there maybe its not.

may be you should google the words "bull" "****" "avoiding the question" and "flim flam artist" instead. make a point, have evidence to back it up, and stick with it. quit talking in circles

 

[Crook]

I have no vendetta. I am just saying that it was Goyer's ideas and he is lending him a hand since he was intrigued them. Goyer has helped him a lot in the past and perhaps he asked him to help him negotiate with WB. Who knows how it actually went?

I am not prejudiced, i'm just saying that Nolan isnt really really involved in the project. We'll see how far he get involved in the future.

“He basically told me, ‘I have this thought about how you would approach Superman,’” Nolan recalled. “I immediately got it, loved it and thought: That is a way of approaching the story I’ve never seen before that makes it incredibly exciting. I wanted to get Emma and I involved in shepherding the project right away and getting it to the studio and getting it going in an exciting way.”

Goyer is now writing the screenplay and Nolan is keeping it close to the vest.

Does that sound like something Nolan jumped on in name only? He's never been involved in a project that he doesn't have considerable input in. As I said before, Superman had nothing to do with Chris. But once he heard Goyer's pitch, he chose to bring it to WB. Not only do that, but he put himself as the 'godfather' of the project. That last bit is key to his involvement. It is not indicative of a man who looks down on the genre, and pretty much smashes the claim that he's afraid or averse to fantasy oriented characters.

I just did a short google search with the words "goyer", "nolan", "cape" and "grapple gun". Maybe its there maybe its not.

This "rumor" cannot be found past conjecture spurted out by disgruntled fans on a message board. A google search couldn't even find a remote match to this claim. Put two and two together.

 

[Mr. Earle]

the quote from new frontier you cited as proof that it is the suit that is the intiditator and not batman himself which was intended to show the opposite point.

Its both the suit and Batman's act. My original point was that Batman is scary and Nolan didnt portray him that way in TDK. He might as well been Blue Beetle, Superman or the Flash.

i'm noticing how you keep changing which side of an argument you're on...

No i am not. I was convinced to change some of my views.

actually that post was meant to open up your selection of stories to any media. my point is that what you seem to be asking for is impossible in 2 self contained stories.

Its not impossible. For starters they could have eased up on the realism, leaving Ras' immortality intact. Etc..

may be you should google the words "bull" "****" "avoiding the question" and "flim flam artist" instead. make a point, have evidence to back it up, and stick with it. quit talking in circles

I am not trying to deceive you or avoid confrontation. If anything its been high past time i went to bed and i'm still here answering to your posts. I honestly remember reading that but after so long perhaps my memory deceives me or the article has been erased. I dont believe that all the articles and sites about BB, a 2005 movie are still up on the internet.

Does that sound like something Nolan jumped on in name only? He's never been involved in a project that he doesn't have considerable input in. As I said before, Superman had nothing to do with Chris. But once he heard Goyer's pitch, he chose to bring it to WB. Not only do that, but he put himself as the 'godfather' of the project. That last bit is key to his involvement. It is not indicative of a man who looks down on the genre, and pretty much smashes the claim that he's afraid or averse to fantasy oriented characters.

OK.

 

[Anita18]

i suspect (and please correct me if i'm wrong) that you've only recently (i.e. within the last 3-4 yrs) begun reading the actual comics and not just basing everything off of television shows and movies. that would explain to me your somewhat limited view of how batman is percieved among other things. if this is the case i and many other posters here would be happy to suggest books for you to read that will help broaden your understandingt:

that's not to say that your opinions are necessarily wrong, they're not, just a bit under-informed

What's funny is that I haven't read a lot of comics at all, but I welcome any different takes on the character. Of course there are some interpretations that I prefer, but it's truly wonderful how one character with a few basic premises can yield so many rich interpretations and stories and still remain pretty badass throughout. I want these creators to go nuts and put their own spin on Batman. That's the whole point of why the character has endured so strongly for so long.

To get world recognition, money and access to the big studios?

Insomnia put his foot in WB's door, it was only a matter of time before he did something big there anyway. Since then he's ONLY worked with WB, and there was no indication that he would have the status he does now over there. He had to prove himself, and obviously WB and DC must have liked what he did.

And he's probably still more renowned among filmophiles for making Memento than anything else.

That's besides the point. Batman looks scary. Its a law of the franchise and it shouldnt change because of the story. Nolan already spent 1 hour of BB explaining why he would dress like that and i already suspended my disbelief in order to buy that his ridiculous get up makes him scary so why on earth would Nolan tear it all down in TDK?

Its both the suit and Batman's act. My original point was that Batman is scary and Nolan didnt portray him that way in TDK. He might as well been Blue Beetle, Superman or the Flash.

No, because the public being aware that Batman is one man plays an important part in the STORY. There's talk in TDK about arresting Batman, about how he can't keep it up forever, that he has limits, that he can be unmasked. Because he is a man. You don't talk like that about some abstract creature.

Sometimes I feel like you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[jmc]

The last 3 pages have been hilarious.

 

[Anita18]

The last 3 pages have been hilarious.

Pretty much, yeah. I'm only here after a long absence since I need to get some writing juices flowing and posting is good practice for my brain to be coherent.

 

[jmc]

^ I would have responded myself but yourself and others pretty much said everything I would have. Sometimes being on the interchange bench is more fun. t:

 

[returntovoid]

It was Nolan that destroyed his creature status more so than the suit.

So here we see Alfred (freaking Alfred!!!) scared of Bruce because the batsuit makes him scary:
[YT]t3EAwaX17sw[/YT]
And then there is a scene in "JL: The new frontier" where Batman scares a little kid he's trying to save, so later he does some changes to his suit because "he set out to scare criminals, not kids". Apparently his Kane/Finger suit (gloves up to his wrists, long devilish bat ears) was so goddamn scary that he changed it to his current suit with the longer gloves and shorter ears that is supposedly scary, but not making you piss yourself scary. Its a comic book character who lives in a comic book world. Real life logic doesnt apply and that's why people who dismiss Robin with the arguement that it would be child abuse in the real world miss the point.

I agree, Batman should be the mysterious creature of the night and Nolan with Goyer built that up really well in BB but threw it down the hill in TDK when Goyer didn't come back. I'm actually starting to think Goyer cared a bit more for the source material and maybe, most of the best parts of BB were his idea. I guess, some of the best writing comes when two very different people collaborate like Goyer/Nolan on BB and obviously a lot of musicians like Keith Richards/Mick Jagger writing team-up. I'm sure Nolan and his brother had very similar ideas on TDK.

 

[The Joker]

The last 3 pages have been hilarious.

LOL, I've really enjoyed it. I love a good debate. These guys have made some brilliant points in this discussion.

In the absence of any news, this thread is by far the most entertaining and interesting, IMO.

 

[Chris Wallace]

ahh My bad. I agree, they are the cop-out reason.

But not just Nolan's excuse; it's everybody's.
I think it's a matter of emphasis. Because Batman is a mere mortal and not some superpowered mutant or unfortunate victim of a lab accident, and because his abiilities do not lie that far outside the realm of possibility, his stories should have a more realisitc setting than that of, say, Superman or Spider-Man. On the other hand, he does do some things which, so far, have not been proven possible. And we are talking about a costumed crime-fighter in a world where people can create fear gas and survive the loss of half the flesh on their heads. So I don't see the harm in playing up the fantasy elements to a degree, so long as you know where to stop. The problem as I see it in striving for more and more realism is that the comics themselves are NOT based in reality. So you lose more and more of the source material in translation as you go along.

 

[Mr. Earle]

LOL, I've really enjoyed it. I love a good debate. These guys have made some brilliant points in this discussion.

In the absence of any news, this thread is by far the most entertaining and interesting, IMO.

I enjoyed it too. t:

The last 3 pages have been hilarious.

Hilarious? Excuse me?

No, because the public being aware that Batman is one man plays an important part in the STORY. There's talk in TDK about arresting Batman, about how he can't keep it up forever, that he has limits, that he can be unmasked. Because he is a man. You don't talk like that about some abstract creature.

Sometimes I feel like you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

That could still be the case with Batman keeping his mystique and urban legend status if the world was more unrealistic or had other superheroes. Superman villains, Killer Croc, Manbat, etc can be arrested, why not this bat thing?

In any case i think that they totally destroyed all that they built in BB, which could have been kept intact while also having him hunted, arrested, etc. Even Bruce himself stopped acting like Batman the minute he started making public appearences under heavy lighting.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It seems he has reached a new visual and fantastical high with Inception. I am excited in how he will integrate his new skills in Bat3man.

 

[jmc]

LOL, I've really enjoyed it. I love a good debate. These guys have made some brilliant points in this discussion.

Actually it's hilarious because it isn't a good debate, it's absurdly one sided.

 

[Brother Jack]

Actually it's hilarious because it isn't a good debate, it's absurdly one sided.

Some great points were made, on one side yes, but still.