The Dark Knight Rises Should "Realism" be lightened up a bit?

[The Joker]

I'm a HUGE Batman fan, and you're right, these movies aren't that great for me. Then again, I've always said that.

I assume you don't have high hopes for the third one? Especially considering the critical and commercial success of the previous movies, particularly TDK.

Both that and the caravan scene were cool and intense.

The caravan scene?

 

[MacLeod]

I assume you don't have high hopes for the third one? Especially considering the critical and commercial success of the previous movies, particularly TDK.

Sadly no, I'm not. One can hope, but reality tells me otherwise.

 

[MacLeod]

I wouldn't go that far. The character of Bruce Wayne/Batman is rather well maintained by Nolan and Bale between them. The factors inhibiting the "Batman-ness" of the Nolan movies are broader ones of tone and style, I feel.

So, I completely buy BB and TDK's Batman as Batman (even in his silly rubber suit), but it feels like Batman has strayed into a less lively, less exciting and more downbeat world than Earth One of the DCU.

Sadly, I didn't see this at all. I realize things are up for opinion, and Begins was pretty good at times, but TDK had nothing for me, nothing at all in the way of seeing (in costume or mystique) or feeling the presense of Batman.

 

[nogap87]

The caravan scene?

When the police were transporting Dent across Gotham.

 

[The Joker]

When the police were transporting Dent across Gotham.

Oh the armored car/Joker Truck/Bat Pod sequence. Yes, that was amazing.

 

[Bruce Malone]

So was I. How is a boy choosing to fight crime and working on it every day the same as a lost twenty-something who gets thrown in jail? That's not depth, that's a new storyline. The only thing Bruce is supposed to be confused about is what type of costume to make, not if he should stay in college, shoot a gangster, run away from Gotham, or why he's in prison. I'm not asking for cut and paste, but those are two entirely different ideas.

Many martial artists train for more than seven years, wouldn't they be better than Batman in Nolan's version?, Add into the idea if any of them studied any schooling on criminals, science, technology, etc. they would know more than Bruce in Nolan's version as well. That's not Batman to me.

You think it greatly added to the story, I think it took something away. I would have much rather seen the main character be better than everyone else in the world by training hard for it, not being lost and then training for only seven years for it. If you don't see the entire thing as being different and radical more power to you, and I may be alone on this, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

Do most martial artists get to train with the league of assasins? or get trained by ras al aghul? And have you read year one? you have a twenty something batman who defenetly is not the best at everything and struggles at first.

Of course Begings adds depth to the batman origin story no comics have ever come close to examining batmans full origins and training. The closest was year one but that story picks up right after his training.

The stuff you describe is never even shown in the comics its always just reffered to. Begins actually took the time to do what no media had done with batman before and flushed out a full origin story, i think that is doing batman a great service.

Again if you don't like the movies i can't convince you too but just because you do not like something does not inherently mean it is bad or flawed itself.

 

[regwec]

Actually, the comics have dealt with Batman's origins ad nauseum; the results are convoluted and pointless, however. BB just mashed the different threads into a coherent forty minute sequence, which was fine.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I wouldn't go that far. The character of Bruce Wayne/Batman is rather well maintained by Nolan and Bale between them. The factors inhibiting the "Batman-ness" of the Nolan movies are broader ones of tone and style, I feel.

So, I completely buy BB and TDK's Batman as Batman (even in his silly rubber suit), but it feels like Batman has strayed into a less lively, less exciting and more downbeat world than Earth One of the DCU.

Agreed. By trying to make a serious movie with serious themes that will be taken seriously by serious moviegoers, Nolan has sucked all the fun out of it. Apart from the Joker interrogation scene and the Hong Kong scene, TDK was more of a gritty crime drama than a true batman movie.
I cannot believe that Favreau is doing so well with Ironman. Who would have thought it? Even if Ironman 2 turns out to be a mindless summer flick, it will at least be awesome to watch (from the looks of it) and will surely have many exciting moments. It will be a superhero movie. And that what it should be. When i watch a chickflick, i want to watch a chickflick, not a chickflick trying to comment on society or whatever. So when i pay my ticket to see a Batman movie, i want to see a Batman movie that embraces what it is and leaves social commentary and politics for their respective genres.

Also, Nolan's relactunce to use CGI has limited him from giving us a greater cinematic experience. Surely Batman can never pull off the feats of Ironman, but he can glide, and fight like the best fighter in the world. Dont tell me that Nolan has reached the limits of what Batman can do. Who doesnt want to see an exciting rooftop chase-fighting scene with some added gliding, grappling, and slow-mo effects? And i dont mean watching Batman glide across the screen, i mean using CGI so that the camera follows him around as he pulls off various maneuvers, zooms in on him, etc.

And then there's the fact that Batman lives in one of the most iconic imaginary cities and yet Favs has managed to make L.A. more appealing than Nolan's Gotham. The Stark Expo looks like another visual treat. Its gorgeous.
Stark's house vs Bruce's penthouse? No contest. Where is the magnifivrent penthouse from the comics, the one set on top a glorious building with the huge pool and roof garden?
Stages for climactic battles:
TDK: unfinished skyscraper full of dust and construction materials.
IM2: Stark Expo garden

IM2 wins again.

Sadly, I didn't see this at all. I realize things are up for opinion, and Begins was pretty good at times, but TDK had nothing for me, nothing at all in the way of seeing (in costume or mystique) or feeling the presense of Batman.

Agreed 100%

 

[regwec]

I don't think any Batman fan who saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" didn't wish to see the rooftop chase scenes transported to Gotham.

I still hope Chris Nolan gives us something like that.

 

[KalMart]

I don't think any Batman fan who saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" didn't wish to see the rooftop chase scenes transported to Gotham.

I still hope Chris Nolan gives us something like that.

It was like the stage version of Peter Pan. I'd hope that we wouldn't get that in a Batman movie.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I don't think any Batman fan who saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" didn't wish to see the rooftop chase scenes transported to Gotham.

I still hope Chris Nolan gives us something like that.

How can he when his gotham is that bland and his fight scenes so horrible? You think you ll see his batman jump across buildings while throwing batarangs in slow motion, pull off extreme gliding maneuvres, getting towed by a flying villain like Firefly, or...i dunno... fight a villain while falling between skyscrapers?
These things are silly and only happen in comics.

In b4 someone accuses me of wanting a bayfest or a snyderfest.

 

[regwec]

It was like the stage version of Peter Pan. I'd hope that we wouldn't get that in a Batman movie.

And why would a Batman movie be an inappropriate vehicle for that kind of sequence? Are Batman movies inherently so high brow and cerebral that the inclusion of dynamic chase scenes would seem frivolous?

 

[KalMart]

And why would a Batman movie be an inappropriate vehicle for that kind of sequence? Are Batman movies inherently so high brow and cerebral that the inclusion of dynamic chase scenes would seem frivolous?

I'm talking more about how it looked...like they were swinging on cables in a stage show. I'd like to see it done at least a bit better for a Batman movie...if that's not too extravagant or profound a request.

 

[lixdexia]

And why would a Batman movie be an inappropriate vehicle for that kind of sequence? Are Batman movies inherently so high brow and cerebral that the inclusion of dynamic chase scenes would seem frivolous?

no, there's nothing that says it would be inappropriate for a batman movie, i just don't like that type of sequence in almost any movie. also on the list of things i don't like in movies excessive slow motion in things not titled "the matrix"

 

[Mr. Earle]

And why would a Batman movie be an inappropriate vehicle for that kind of sequence? Are Batman movies inherently so high brow and cerebral that the inclusion of dynamic chase scenes would seem frivolous?

- Yes!

 

[Crook]

I cannot believe that Favreau is doing so well with Ironman. Who would have thought it? Even if Ironman 2 turns out to be a mindless summer flick, it will at least be awesome to watch (from the looks of it) and will surely have many exciting moments. It will be a superhero movie. And that what it should be. When i watch a chickflick, i want to watch a chickflick, not a chickflick trying to comment on society or whatever. So when i pay my ticket to see a Batman movie, i want to see a Batman movie that embraces what it is and leaves social commentary and politics for their respective genres.

I can't believe you just advocated low-art, the very stigma comic books have long faced (and still is) from being considered legitimate sources of literature.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with genre pictures, but to insinuate they shouldn't try to have a message is absolutely ludicrous. Especially when MANY comics (including Batman) have had several doses of social commentary intertwined in their fantasy-oriented stories.

Oh, and the very awesome Favreau that you so greatly praise? He looks up to Nolan. Even he (along with every other director out) has stated TDK raised the bar and changed the game for comic book movies. Stop acting like Nolan is some atrocity to this franchise.

 

[MacLeod]

Do most martial artists get to train with the league of assasins? or get trained by ras al aghul? And have you read year one? you have a twenty something batman who defenetly is not the best at everything and struggles at first.

No, but many train with masters in the Asia for more years than Bruce did which says more to me as a martial artist than Ras Al Ghul ever could. Also, any beat cop has more criminology schooling under his belt than Bruce does, let alone any technology or science that he hasn't studied in Nolan's version. I used to train with someone who trained in Okinawa for nine years and then came back to be a cop. That alone is more than Nolan's Batman and that's sad.

Year one is a twenty something that at least knows everything but struggled because he had to use all of it for the first time. This is drastically different than a twenty something who has done nothing at all, ever, who then got thrown in jail before the training was even considered.

Of course Begings adds depth to the batman origin story no comics have ever come close to examining batmans full origins and training. The closest was year one but that story picks up right after his training.

Many comics give discriptions of how he trained, and none of them ever had him as a lost puppy until the League of Assasins found him. In Nolan's version they chose him because they wanted to use him, he didn't seek them for training.

The stuff you describe is never even shown in the comics its always just reffered to. Begins actually took the time to do what no media had done with batman before and flushed out a full origin story, i think that is doing batman a great service.

Reffered to is a description, it's called a flashback, or, and get ready for this, part of the origin. Many comics have reffered to (described) the history of Batman, so has the cartoons and graphic novels. The iconic image of Bruce at his bedside the night his parents died vowing to fight injustice is fantastic and has been in many comics. The fact that Nolan gave us a full origin story doesn't mean he gave us the correct one or a good one.

Again if you don't like the movies i can't convince you too but just because you do not like something does not inherently mean it is bad or flawed itself.

And again, my opinions are not just mine, but I doubt you'll try to read elsewhere because that would prove me more correct. I may be the only one recently to complain about the origin problem but believe me I'm not the only one complaining in general. Also, if it does go against the origin story, whether how right I am or not, would make it flawed. Bruce being a lost puppy is not the same as training to be Batman and in my opinion that is bad and flawed.

 

[MacLeod]

Oh, and the very awesome Favreau that you so greatly praise? He looks up to Nolan. Even he (along with every other director out) has stated TDK raised the bar and changed the game for comic book movies. Stop acting like Nolan is some atrocity to this franchise.

Nolan made good movies, I don't think anyone is trying to say otherwise. What people I think are having problems with are that the movies were not Batman movies for them, they were crime dramas that occasionally had a guy with ears in them. It could be just me, but that's how I felt and I'm guessing others felt the same way. For Favreau to look up to Nolan makes sense as a director, but Favreau kept his character in the film where I feel Nolan worried more about the movie and less about the character. My opinion of course.

 

[nogap87]

I'm not a 100% sold on Nolan's Joker but I will give him props for giving us a truly memorable villian who was not a good guy deep down or had some pass connection with the hero. He was a breath of fresh air really.

 

[Crook]

Nolan made good movies, I don't think anyone is trying to say otherwise. What people I think are having problems with are that the movies were not Batman movies for them, they were crime dramas that occasionally had a guy with ears in them. It could be just me, but that's how I felt and I'm guessing others felt the same way. For Favreau to look up to Nolan makes sense as a director, but Favreau kept his character in the film where I feel Nolan worried more about the movie and less about the character. My opinion of course.

A more apt statement would be Nolan failed to depict your Batman in his movie. He failed to do mine as well, but there's no way I'm going to agree that he didn't think Bruce through with either BB or TDK. From the several interviews alone, it's clear as day he puts characters first above everything else in the movie. Chris has great insight into character development and their psyche. That's his specialty as a director. This is exemplified by the near universal praise most of the characters have gotten with both films. The great performances sure helped, but everything was laid out in the script and with his direction.

Look, I've probably b***hed with the best of them regarding some of the decisions Nolan has made, but the nitpicks are getting ridiculously exaggerated here. Especially the ones directed at Nolan.

 

[The Joker]

A more apt statement would be Nolan failed to depict your Batman in his movie. He failed to do mine as well, but there's no way I'm going to agree that he didn't think Bruce through with either BB or TDK. From the several interviews alone, it's clear as day he puts characters first above everything else in the movie. Chris has great insight into character development and their psyche. That's his specialty as a director. This is exemplified by the near universal praise most of the characters have gotten with both films. The great performances sure helped, but everything was laid out in the script and with his direction.

Look, I've probably b***hed with the best of them regarding some of the decisions Nolan has made, but the nitpicks are getting ridiculously exaggerated here. Especially the ones directed at Nolan.

I knew there was a reason you're on my buddy list, Crook

 

[Bruce Malone]

A more apt statement would be Nolan failed to depict your Batman in his movie. He failed to do mine as well, but there's no way I'm going to agree that he didn't think Bruce through with either BB or TDK. From the several interviews alone, it's clear as day he puts characters first above everything else in the movie. Chris has great insight into character development and their psyche. That's his specialty as a director. This is exemplified by the near universal praise most of the characters have gotten with both films. The great performances sure helped, but everything was laid out in the script and with his direction.

Look, I've probably b***hed with the best of them regarding some of the decisions Nolan has made, but the nitpicks are getting ridiculously exaggerated here. Especially the ones directed at Nolan.

http://blog.pornlandia.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/joker-clap.gif

 

[GlasgowBat]

rather off topic regarding the suit, but seems relevant to the key ideas being discussed......(copied from an earlier post elsewhere)

point is, there is no reason to assume the movies are not building blocks for bringing in more...."fantastical"(doesn't feel right but will have to do) elements to the franchise. Hasn't the theme of escalation been central to the progression of the narrative, and the characters?

even if nolan's third is not a completely "fantastical" rendition of the mythos, there is every possibility that it will have an open-ending which can be built upon by someone new, who takes advantage of the break to amp up the fantasy levels. Indeed, it only seems logical for that to be the case.

however, if the next film is largely amped up fantasy wise, it would feel very sudden and terribly unnatural; the escalation theme, form that meeting atop police headquarters in BB, has always read to me as such; batman has begun, and now we are going to see slowly but surely the progression from crime-ridden mob city to haven of super-criminals and flamboyant lunatics- perhaps inspired by the hero himself.

isn't that precisely what year one served as? the starting point for the batman story, after which we would see the "freaks" subsume and take the power from the mob element? certainly, year one-the long halloween-dark victory(cited as sources of inspiration by nolan et al) took this overarching concept.

why would we not assume that this is going to be the case, seeing as BB and TDK have delivered just that so far? the parallels are fairly obvious.

 

[Phaser]

Some of the comments in this thread only reaffirm the stereotype about fanboys being a fickle bunch. Prior to Batman Begins, these same forums were choking with demands to turn Batman from a colorful superhero he was in the last two Batman films into an urban vigilante. It only seemed like yesterday when keywords like 'gritty crime drama', 'Year One', 'The Long Halloween', 'Heat', 'Michael Mann', 'Se7en', 'David Fincher' and 'Andrew Kevin-Walker' were being thrown around left and right. We finally have a director who managed to wipe the death sentence and stigma off the Batman franchise turning it not only into the world's biggest and most successful superhero brand, but also resurrecting Batman as a smart, serious, intriguing and respectable mythology in the eyes of the general audience. The Dark Knight has broken a number of common conventions of the summer blockbuster formula and was one of the prime factors in the Oscar Academy's (rather dumb) decision to double the number of Best Picture nominees. It is hardly unrealistic to call it one of the most influential and important films of the decade.

And what is our response to all this? Chris Nolan was wrong all along and we want our 'fun' back.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Are you saying there can't be a middle ground? Schumacher crossed the line of "fun" & ventured into the territory of silly. Why does it have to go from one extreme to the other?