Sequels SHOULD Singer even return to the X-Men franchise?

[The Guard]

Guard, I wasnt agreeing with you about the end of X3, I acknowledged that at times in the previous movies, he healed faster than others, but I still stand by the fact that he healed a lot quicker at the end of X3 than he did in the rest of the trilogy, or even Wolverine, at times during the end scene he was healing virtually before he even got hit.

I don't think anyone debates he healed faster at the end of X3 than he did in previous films. It would be illogical to do so.

Wait...he was healing before he got hit?

The big difference is though, previously, there is a short delay before he heals, at the end of X3, its instant, as I pointed out above, there is no delay, he is healing instantly during that scene, not to mention faster. Its just a ridiculous ploy to make Wolverine the hero of the day.

1. The nature of his healing changes from incident to incident.

2. "Short delay" meaning what, exactly? His hand scars healed almost instantly upon the retraction of the claws, and the delays before the other times he healed all varied for one reason or another.

See, it's statements like "It's just a ridiculous ploy to make hero of the day" that make it apparent you cannot look at this without some serious bias.

They didn't INVENT his healing powers so he could be the hero.

He was ALREADY the hero. He's already essentially the main character. You knew he was going to be the hero in X3. Everyone did. And he HAS healing powers. We've seen that he has them for two films. The presence of healing powers in X3 wasn't some sudden magical Deux Ex Machina they made up so Logan could be the hero because there was just no other way for him to save the day. What do you think would have happened had he healed slower, he just WOULDN'T have been the hero or something?

He heals faster, I suspect, for economy of screentime, budget and pacing reasons. I suppose he could have healed slower, but that would just have cost that much more money, and been a bit less tense.

Well, this paragraph is a whole waste of time because I didnt admit she was holding back, I said I have given you explanation as to why I believe she ISNT holding back, check the quote again.

My mistake.

And for the 50th time, I believe she is going at Wolverine with all she has, and his healing factor, amped up to the nines, is what saves him.

So "all she has"...can barely blow a few patches of skin off him?

I mean, believe what you want, but..

(Shakes head)

So everyone is tarred with the same brush? Thats ridiculous, I am the first to role my eyes when someone doesnt give a valid excuse for disliking a movie, no matter what my opinion on the movie, but I have seen MANY a valid argument regarding people who dont like X3.

No, of course everyone is not tarred with the same brush. But there ARE similarities.

I'm saying there's a PRECEDENT for that kind of thing. I thought I said it fairly clearly, too.

But half the things you put on there, which were your observations, seemed like excuses, because they werent what I and other people had seen, it came accross like you were making excuses for the poor writing and direction in this scene by pointing things no one else had seen.

How did it come across that way, when I never even mentioned the quality of the writing or the direction, or anything along the lines of "It's ok the writing is subpar because..."?

Where do you even get that?

An explanation of a scene is not an "excuse" for poor writing. It's an assessment of the content of the scene.

Hell, I don't think the writing is poor to begin with. The direction in that scene certainly isn't.

The point is, no matter how many times you say its obvious what that scene is trying to convey, a lot of evidence suggests its not so obvious. Simple.

Yeah...you going "I think the writing is poor and that the writers just wanted Logan to be the hero" is not really evidence. In the least. It's an opinion.

I totally know what you are going on about, and again (we really are going around in circles now) I disagree with it. Nothing in the movie before that incident showed that DP could decimate a large area without going full tilt at a microscopic part of it, so why would she suddenly be able to do this at the end of the movie?

What are you talking about?

She's not "suddenly able to do it".

As has been explained already, but probably bears repeating...Dark Phoenix could clearly focus her power to some extent. She didn't destroy an entire area unless she wanted to. See what happened in the lab and at Jean's house, and even on Alcatraz Island.

You can VISIBLY see power coming from her and going towards Wolverine, which again makes your point about her holding back moot. Its coming out of her in a circular pattern so everything around her is being effected, I didnt see any lessoning of that power going towards Wolverine, if anything, it was quite the opposite.

You know, if this is your response, I honestly don't think you even read the bit you just quoted me saying. Here, I'll post it again in response.

I never said she's not using power. I said she's apparently using less on Wolverine than she is on her surroundings. This is apparent because there's less force being used on him than the rest of the area.

I don't care what you can "see" radiating toward him, because: The power radiating toward him obviously isn't THAT intense, because she can only destroy skin and muscle, piece by piece, whereas all around her, she's blowing buildings, vehicles, and entire bodies apart in totality.

As for your question about Wolverine's skin and the military bunker, welcome to knowing why so many find the scene ridiculous.

So...instead of realizing that she's OBVIOUSLY not using as much power on him as she is on the surrounding area..."many" have decided that Wolverine is just amazingly resilient now?

Ridiculous.

I dont think it is up for interpretation when just after we see her straining, is when shw blows most of Wolverine's torso off.

You don't...think...it's up for interpretation. Of course. Why would any moment in a film that isn't outright spelled out be up for interpretation?

But she obviously isnt in control when previously she has blown the 2 people she loved most in this world, and 2 people she loved far more than Wolverine, away, it just doesnt make sense, Jean doesnt even love Wolverine, so why would she spare him out of everyone? She even kills Quills, etc, who are supposedly now her friends? The whole movie just doesnt make sense i'm afraid.

So now, instead of responding to the actual, relevant points I raised, you're just going to go for semantic traps? I notice you ignored almost everything about that big bit you quoted except the one thing you could potentially use to say "No, that's not entirely accurate".

By the way, I said "In control on some level". Finish reading my sentences before you respond to my points.

Even I don't usually split sentences in half when I'm arguing semantics.

The whole movie doesn't make sense? Maybe to you. It's sad you won't, though you clearly don't understand some key elements of it, allow someone to explain some of it to you. You might enjoy it a bit more.

As for why she would spare him?

Hmm...because even if she doesn't love him, she CARES about him? Because they're friends and former teammates? And he's obviously trying to help her without trying to control her to do so?

Quills, Psylocke, etc, are never shown to be her "friends". They're shown to be part of the Brotherhood, and that's about it. She's never shown to have any real connection to them beyond that.

No one has missed out, the film is devoid of subtlties, its terrible written, terribly directed, and even compared to the first 2 movies, pretty poorly acted.

Now I know you're just being biased. There are definitely some subtleties in the film. Something like Beast's reaction to Leech's ability to cure him come to mind. "Terrible" is a bit much to describe the writing and directing. The script has some weak points and some silly and cliche points, and so did the scripts for X-MEN and X2. So does almost any film.

But to critique the acting, especially from the major players, is just silly. Stewart and McKellan are both as good, if not better, than they have been in prior X-Men films. Janssen easily gives her most emotional, gripping, and probably best performance of any of the three movies, as does most of the rest of the cast. James Marsden is fantastic in a small role. Ben Foster is very good in a small role as well. Anna Paquin's just a solid as she was in previous films, and I think Shawn Ashmore took a huge step forward in X3 with his performance. Rebecca Romijn has a lot more to work with than she did in previous movies, and she makes good on it. Pretty much everyone in the movie is solid, even when saddled with some silly or cliche dialogue here and there.

Ratner is incapable of subtle, and it shows throughout the movie, its all about getting to the next action scene no matter how incomprehensible (ala Wolverine vs Dark Pheonix) it is.

Yeah...no. While there's definitely a lot of action in X3, and they definitely "get to the action" every so often (well, it's a movie about a war between humans and mutants, and mutants in mutants, why wouldn't there be?), there are plenty of "character" scenes in X3.

-The opening with Warren and his father
-Xavier and Magneto and young Jean and her parents
-Cyclops and Logan
-Storm and Xavier
-Cyclops and Jean
-Beast and government
-The reveal of the cure
-Logan and Jean as Dark Phoenix emerges the first time
-Xavier and Logan
-The cure sequence with Warren and his father
-Bobby and Kitty
-Magneto forming the Brotherhood
-Beast, Rao and Leech
-Jean, Xavier and Magneto before the battle at Jean's home
-Xavier's funeral
-Beast and the President later in the film
-Jean and Magneto in the forest
-Logan and Storm
-Rogue and Wolverine
-The X-Men before the final battle

There are plenty of scenes that don't have or revolve around action. X3 has quite a few character scenes in it, just as the previous two films did, and they're about as long to boot.

Don't be absurd.

 

[The Guard]

Firstly, Phoenix's power is not universally, uniformly applied to everything around her. Earlier in the film, only Xavier is blown to smithereens; the rest of the house is badly damaged but it is not blown to atoms. When Quill and Arclight are destroyed, the rest of the building doesn't blast to atoms at the same time. Phoenix can clearly be selective with her power, within the general area that it is affecting. She can focus it.

Wolverine clearly has the greatest chance of surviving Phoenix, because of his adamantium, his healing power and his connection to Jean. Also, we see from other events that she is capable of selectively targeting things, which means adjusting/restraining/intensifying power levels for specific people or objects.

Since Wolverine was not raised in the air (like Xavier) and since all his flesh and bones were not blown to atoms, it's obvious either she was not trying to do that (because she was toying with him) or that Jean was holding Phoenix back and stopping her from striking at full force. Both factors could apply.

Exactly.

This is very clear based on what the film shows us.

The film clearly establishes that Jean is still 'in there' somewhere. Logan says so to Storm, and then Jean's own ambivalence (calling him to the forest camp then turning away from him) shows two personalities were at work. Famke herself said she wanted it to be unpredictable to create more surprise and suspense. We also know Jean is battling to stop Phoenix destroying Xavier, but Phoenix's rage at Xavier's attempt to re-install the barriers was incredibly strong. The deleted scene with psychic voices during that battle confirms that Jean was present trying to help, but ends up 'slipping' and Phoenix then becomes the dominant and overpowering personality.

Yup.

And even without the deleted scene's existence, "calling out to Logan" pretty much proves this element was intended by the writers. Whether they executed it real well is another thing entirely. But at least they put SOMETHING there, unlike in X2, where she has control issues, gradually learns to control her powers, and then SUDDENLY becomes "Phoenix" with no real explanation of why beyond the fact that she just sort of...did.

It looks like you are refusing to accept the things in X3 because you dislike the film. It's not that you don't like the film because of these things, you don't like the film and are therefore refusing to give it any credit at all.

It doesn't matter if you liked what you saw, it doesn't matter if you wanted Cyclops to be there, it doesn't matter if 99 per cent of fans wanted Cyclops to be the one to destroy Jean, what matters is what was on screen and whether it worked cinematically and narratively.

Clearly there are theories/explanations that answer what we were seeing. It's not as though the things discussed here by me, Guard and others are totally improbable or impossible or plucked out of thin air.

There it is.

I don't care if people don't like X3.

I don't really care if people make up ridiculous things about what is IN X3.

I just find some of the nature of the arguments against it ridiculous.

It also makes sense that Wolverine heals faster from a bigger attack, that his immune system goes into overdrive to protect him. This is reasonable. Your body's immune system will race to respond to a massive trauma more quickly than to a small, non-threatening one. Also, we saw Wolverine heal immediately when vital organs were sliced and skewered by Deathstrike's talons in X2.

True.

I never minded this explanation. It's got a sort of pseudo scientific/medical relevance to it.

I mean, otherwise I'm to believe the guy can heal rapidly, but just not THAT rapidly?

Feh.

[XM, you are making the same mistake as Guard, thinking that I cant judge something rationally because I dislike the movie, this just isnt true at all, and is quite condescending as well. You also make another mistake he does by thinking your opinion on the matter is finite. It isnt, and why you insist on bringing SR into the equation every time is just beyond me.

The problem is...and someone else already said...so let's get it out there.

Your assessment of certain elements in X3 AREN'T rational. They're steeped in an apparent bias and predisposition to dislike the movie.

Fair enough, this is all your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I have stated what I think X3 got right in the past, you have never, and will never hear me moaning about the lack of Shi'ar or Moon battle, etc, but for some reason, people defending the movie try and pin it on me that I have said these things.

Where has anyone tried to pin it on you that you have said these things?

Again, people who dislike the movie get tarred with the same brush for some reason, when plenty of people down the years, have come up with viable reasons for disliking it.

No, people who make ridiculous things about what is or isn't in the film get tarred with the same brush. Usually because they basically ask for it, by lumping themselves together with other people who say ridiculous things...by making the same ridiculous arguments over and over and over.

I have no problem is someone dislikes X3.

I have a minor problem with arguments from people who can't just focus on what was actually wrong with the movie, and who feel the need to project issues onto the film that aren't there to sort of "justify" their dislike of it.

And I will agree that that scene isnt the worst in the movie, but it is the scene we are debating, and it isnt that I refuse to see certain things, its simply that I DONT see them, but for some reason certain people cant accept that.

I think you don't see them because you didn't to begin with. But even though people have brought up logical arguments about certain elements, you seem to have decided that since YOU didn't see these, or consider these angles on your own, that they don't exist in the film.

I don't think any team who came in to make X3 would make a film that was utterly seamless in style/tone to the first two.

I actually found the tone pretty consistent with the previous movies. There was an obvious desire to make it a bit more "adventure and fun", but the overall tone of the material remained mostly intact despite this.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

Yes, which is the point.

Wolverine should not be able to endure an onslaught by the Phoenix. The most powerful mutant imaginable and Wolverine knows immediately that he can stop her. And then he proves himself right.

I think the point was that it wasn't just his abilities that let him endure it, but, Jean trying protecting him, struggling to hold back the phoenix's power from him as much as she could

it was just about him being able to physically reach her, but, that he would be the one that could reach her emotional, to be able to connect to what part of Jean was still in there

 

[The Guard]

I really don't see why that is so hard to grasp.

People ***** about a lack of subtlety, and then miss one of the most MAJOR ones in the film.

 

[danoyse]

I think the point was that it wasn't just his abilities that let him endure it, but, Jean trying protecting him, struggling to hold back the phoenix's power from him as much as she could

it was just about him being able to physically reach her, but, that he would be the one that could reach her emotional, to be able to connect to what part of Jean was still in there

Honestly, she probably could have killed him when she wacked him into the wall in the medlab at the beginning of the movie but she held back. She was most likely doing the same at the end of the movie.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Guard, there is really no point in continuing this debate as we simply dont see eye to eye on this issue and since we started the debate neither of us have budged. Its just a waste of time at this point and its clogging up the thread. Not to mention, as you can see by my delays in replying, I really dont have time to read and respond to these long posts.

so we'll just agree to disagree okay?

 

[thegameq]

Guard, there is really no point in continuing this debate as we simply dont see eye to eye on this issue and since we started the debate neither of us have budged. Its just a waste of time at this point and its clogging up the thread. Not to mention, as you can see by my delays in replying, I really dont have time to read and respond to these long posts.

so we'll just agree to disagree okay?

The whole reluctant relationship angle between Logan and Jean was established from the first film. It's pretty obvious to imply or believe she was holding back for the sake of Logan.

Our comicbook knowledge tells us Logan wouldn't stand a chance against the Phoenix (movie or otherwise), so when we see such a scene we take it as a challenge/affront to our knowledge.

Honestly, it was nothing more than the studios pushing Wolvering front and center again. It was admittedly a cool way to illustrate his healing affect.

But I feel you though. Me and my friends must have sounded like a chorus during that scene when we all said, "Yeeaaah Right!".

 

[Lestat74]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but recently on the /filmcast podcast, Michael Dougherty (co-writer of X2 of course) was on, and while he was mostly talking about his new film Trick r Treat (which is great fyi) the hosts asked him what he though of X3, and what Bryan Singer's X3 would have looked like had they all come back. He was reluctant to say anything negative about X3, with the exception of saying "F*** that" to the whole Rogue taking the cure thing, suggesting what most fans know is a terrible disservice to that character's arc of self acceptance. When asked what his and Singer's X3 would have been like, here are some of the highlights

-Movie would have started similarly to Close Encounters of the Third Kind, with mysterious anomolies happening all over the globe and bizarre sightings. When the X-Men go to Alkali Lake, the find the lake bed totally drained and Jean missing. Some mysterious anomolies would have included things like sea vessels mysteriously appearing on land, with passengers onboard being released (it would turn out these ships were ferrying mutant slave work) Of course, all of this would be the work of the newly ressurected Phoenix.

-Cyclops would have been central (as by Dougherty's admission, he kind of got shafted in the first two movies and this would have been his spotlight) We would see him building the Danger Room, as he feels very driven and obsessed now with making the X-Men a better fighting unit in the wake of Jean's death in the previous movie. He feels if the team had been a little bit faster and a little bit stronger, Jean might still be alive.

-The movie seems to not deal so much with Jean being destructive and "evil" as much as God like and above humanity. She takes her own direct approach to problems rendering Xavier and Magneto as powerless to stop her. Like Dr. Manhattan, she ultimately chooses to leave Earth for the cosmos, suggesting she might create new life. Ultimately Scott learns he needs to let her go, and we see her ascend (Dougherty compares her to the Starchild at the end of 2001) Her last words would echo Xavier's at the end of X-Men 1 "I'll be watching". Which I think would have been a nice bit of symmetry there.

He said the rest of the ideas were all rough, but that was their basic outline. Didn't mention story beats for the others though.

Of course we have no idea how it would have all really turned out, but just those tidbits made for a more interesting sounding movie than what we got.

And if Bryan Singer came back....this same movie could still work in my opinion. (with some revision of course)

Go with me here.

I would open with the X-Men as we know them in place, including Cyclops, very much alive and in charge. Xavier is there as well. Rogue is there as too. I would proceed with much of the first act in a similar fashion the first few episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 5 (In that season, we are introduced to Buffy's younger sister Dawn, and though she was never mentioned or reffered to before then, all the characters act as if she has always been there. Only infrequently in those first few episodes that season did any character have a moment of clarity and say "who ARE you??" before snapping back. We learn that reality was changed, and Dawn was inserted into everyone's timeline and memories) I would do something similar here. Have Xavier, being the most powerful, have flashes of recognition that things are not as they should be. I would say When Wolverine killed Jean in X3, all he did was kill her physical body, allowing her true essence ascend to Godhood. She could "re-assemble" herself to look like the Jean we knew (and Scott and Logan loved) but her flawed human shell (which allowed for her not being able to control her vast power and be influenced by human traits like anger and rage) is dead. This Jean is not malevolent, but more or less beyond most human concern.

I say "most". She still has some connections to Scott, Charles and Logan. And she still cares about the plight of mutants, although she bypasses laws and governements and simply does what she wants now. She "fixed" the damge she had done in the previous film (which is why Scott and Charles are alive...she just puts the pieces she broke back) I might also have her undo the cure, as she would see it as an abomination that would hold back the evolution of humanity. But she is too powerful for Earth now, and ultimately chooses to leave it.

In other words, with the exception of a few beats, Singer's original concept of X3 could work, and instead of just saying X3 "didn't happen" or doing a total reboot, it becomes part of a larger more complex journey for Jean, Scott and the others.

And the movie could STILL end with Jean saying "I'll be watching".

I can only hope, if indeed Singer is being lured back for an X4...we get something like this. Not holding my breath, but it would be awesome.

 

[X-Maniac]

Hmmm...sounds interesting. A Phoenix-induced retcon... But whether Fox would do it is another matter, unfortunately.

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/2009/11/x2-scribe-michael-dougherty-de.html

 

[Deaths Head II]

It's kind of funny that Ratner's vision for the Phoenix sounds like it was the more restrained one.

I also doubt Fox would do a Phoenix-induced retcon. But then again I also doubt we'll ever see an X4 and I definitely doubt we'll see an X4 that tries to fix what happened in X3. Fox seems happy with the bag of cash they got and they don't give a damn about what happened to the stories or the characters.

 

[Lestat74]

It's kind of funny that Ratner's vision for the Phoenix sounds like it was the more restrained one.

I also doubt Fox would do a Phoenix-induced retcon. But then again I also doubt we'll ever see an X4 and I definitely doubt we'll see an X4 that tries to fix what happened in X3. Fox seems happy with the bag of cash they got and they don't give a damn about what happened to the stories or the characters.

Well, I doubt it too....but if the rumors are true and Fox is trying to lure Singer back to the fold, what I'm saying is this is a scenario I could see play out. I'd think part of the lure of coming back to the fold would be to work with not just Hugh Jackman again, but also Famke Janssen, Patrick Stewart and James Marsden. Doing his original version of X3 (with this tweek to it) would make the most sense. But I don't see it happening either. I just WISH it would happen.

 

[X-Maniac]

Well, I doubt it too....but if the rumors are true and Fox is trying to lure Singer back to the fold, what I'm saying is this is a scenario I could see play out. I'd think part of the lure of coming back to the fold would be to work with not just Hugh Jackman again, but also Famke Janssen, Patrick Stewart and James Marsden. Doing his original version of X3 (with this tweek to it) would make the most sense. But I don't see it happening either. I just WISH it would happen.

I have to say I do like Dougherty's ideas and your way of integrating them into the current series.

It could be marketed along the lines of 'The end....was just the beginning' and follow Dougherty's ideas about the lights and phenomena, etc. Phoenix would be more of an energy effect this time, though you could have it assembling a physical body too. The villains would be the Hellfire Club.

After that film, the next one would show the human fears about superpowered mutants leading to Sentinels created by the Friends of Humanity...or even by Sinister/Apocalypse. What better twist than a mutant wanting to destroy mutants to weed out the weak and defenceless.

 

[psyonic]

That podcast was awesome ... too bad we didn't get that version of X3, I would have seen it at least 15 times in the theatre, whereas I saw the existing X3 once ...

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

That podcast was awesome ... too bad we didn't get that version of X3, I would have seen it at least 15 times in the theatre, whereas I saw the existing X3 once ...

Same here, I only saw X3 once and got rid of the DVD ages ago. Just reading that was better than watching the POS we got for an X3, that would have been an amazing X3 and truly the one CB movie that people would have been aspiring too rather than TDK.

This would have been the best X-Men movie ever made IMO.

 

[chaseter]

Hmmm...sounds interesting. A Phoenix-induced retcon... But whether Fox would do it is another matter, unfortunately.

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/2009/11/x2-scribe-michael-dougherty-de.html

Phoenix sounds exactly like Dr. Manhattan.

 

[X-Maniac]

Phoenix sounds exactly like Dr. Manhattan.

I saw those similarities too though I'm sure it could be made to seem different. Phoenix needn't go off to 'create life' but simply to explore her new realm (the cosmos).

 

[Primal Slayer]

To bad FOX wont just let Singer do a new "X3"

 

[Deaths Head II]

To bad FOX wont just let Singer do a new "X3"

It would probably be too confusing for the general public anyway.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Singer needs to not make anymore secret sequels. He failed at that the first time.

 

[EnDz0n3]

what's a secret sequel?

 

[Deaths Head II]

I'm guessing he means sequels that are sequels to some films in a series and not to others.

Like Superman Returns.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^It's just a new term I decided to coin.

And I'm a she.

 

[Deaths Head II]

And I'm a she.

Oops, sorry about that.

 

[The Hitcher]

I don't feel like Singer did that well with his two Wolverine movies to begin with, so I wouldn't mind if he didn't come back. His movies were pretty good in context, because they came out in a time where you still kinda expected comic movies to be awful, but there was tons of room for improvement. A new director and a fresh start would do the series good.

 

[Captain America]

I Really want singer back for X4, that is if we ever get an X4...


scratch that, i'd take singer for any of the X-Men films