Sequels SHOULD Singer even return to the X-Men franchise?

[The Guard]

Something about how she runs aways seemed really phoney. Like there was a wierd cut or something right after the Senator liquifies.

I don't know. I thought she looked pretty (heh heh heh) natural.

But those are minor scars, there is a big difference between that and half the majority of the front portion of your body blow away, and I have watched all of these movies countless times and he never heals as fast as at the end of X3, never.

True, but you said:

Sorry Guard, but no, not in the previous 90 mins of X3 nor the whole of X1 and X2 did he heal that fast, at the end it was literally instant, and that wasnt the case for the rest of trilogy, as OTHERS have pointed out.

So I addressed your comment. Fact is, he showed himself capable of healing wounds to his skin and muscle at a rapid speed during the franchise.

Neither was his healing at the end of the film, as you put it, really all that literally instant. It took him some time to heal, just not a whole lot.

Now, he did not heal that fast from most of his other wounds before, but we're talking a 1-2 second difference when he wasn't knocked out in the other films. Neither was he that badly injured in the other movies, either. We can't possibly know the exact science or relative speed or degree of something like Wolverine's healing ability in the films, as we have little to base what exactly his healing rate is, though what happened to him period, and what is shown in WOLVERINE ORIGINS suggests that it has to be pretty fast. For all we know (And some moments suggests that this may be the case), he can actually control his healing abilities when he really wants to.

The movie is on telly right now, and no, he doesnt heal instantly like at the end of X3, there is a small delay, which coincides with the previous movies.

I said "Watch how fast". I didn't say he heals exactly as fast, though I recall it being a similar speed.

I can't time it perfectly because I lost my remote and don't own a working watch, but it takes, if you're counting by "One one thousand, two one thousand" fairly quickly, maybe two seconds for him to heal, and his wounds began healing almost immediately after he's hit in the head by that chunk of whatever it is. Mind you, he's just been smacked in the head by a rapidly moving projectile, and is clearly a bit dazed.

I can time what I found on YouTube, thanks to the handy clock.

The first time Dark Phoenix hits him during the climax, it takes him three or four seconds to heal.

It seems to take about the same amount of time, three or four seconds to heal when she exposes his arms right after that. Actually, it could be six or seven, it's hard to tell, but it looks like when the shot widens, she has already opened up his arm and shoulder, and it takes him a while to heal from all that as he's moving toward her.

It takes about three, four seconds for him to heal from his chest wound.

It takes about three seconds for him to heal from the facial wounds she gives him.

So there's maybe a one-two second variance between most of his healing times from the beginning of X3 and the end of X3. And if we take X-MEN into account, it takes him what, four or five seconds to heal from his head wound in the beginning of X-MEN? Again, only a few seconds variance.

The fact that you admit it is 'amped up a bit' simply proves my point. The rest of X3 is pretty consistant with his healing factor, I will readily admit that, but the end scene, na, just isnt consistent at all.

Umm...proves what point?

No one's arguing his healing wasn't amped up a bit in X3, especially at the end. I'm saying it's similar in speed to what he had happen in the Danger Room, and that we've seen him heal fast before, in previous films. You suggested we had not. I pointed out that you were incorrect about that.

There's not really any such thing as consistency with Wolverine's healing factor. Even in previous films, different wounds healed at slightly different rates.

Thats a bit of a childish statement IMO, I have explained why I believe she isnt holding back and said the same thing countless times, but every time, you have just tried to force me into thinking what YOU think. It ISNT going to happen get over it, you see one thing, I see something completely different.

It's not childish at all, it's very valid. The sentence you just posted is the first time here that I've seen you phrase what Dark Phoenix is doing as "holding back".

And no, you haven't really explained why you believe she's been holding back, because you had yet to admit she HAD been holding back. You've explained over and over again that you think the writers just were poor writers and made Wolverine into "God".

In fact, you've been saying things like this:

Are you kidding me, I am not judging anything with hate, I am judging what I have been presented with on screen. She never showed previously in the movie that she could vaporise whole areas and leave one tiny blip alone, so I dont think she does in this scene either, and as I have pointed out NUMEROUS times, you see her visibly straining just before she comes closest to vaporising him, but Wolverine suddenly gets a healing factor like God.

From what I have seen in the movie she is going at Logan with all she has, and he takes it, why else would she ask "You would die for them?" when he gets to her, he just risked his life going against an unleashed Pheonix, THATS why she asks.

So obvious countless people, including people who liked the movie, point to that scene as a ridiculous power upgrade for Wolverine. I have pointed out countless times before I am simply commenting on what the movie gave us, and what I see is no conflict from DP, she is trying her damnest to blow Wolverine away, but cant, because he gets a computer game like
upgrade because the writers could think of nothing but trying to make Wolverine look teh awesome! for the kids.

So now you've suddenly begun to phrase it as "holding back".

Interesting.

And for once, I'm not playing semantics here. I'm actually curious about your current position on the scene. Do you, or do you not believe that she must be holding back her power when she attacks Wolverine, given the large difference in the severity of her attack on Wolverine VS the area all around her?

Your excuse is that we arent judging the movie properly because we dislike it? Thats ridiculous and arrogant in and of itself, there are plenty of movies I dislike, but, like X3, I always point out what they did well in my reviews of them. But go ahead, believe we cant put logic together because we dislike a movie, I personally think thats absolutely ridiculous.

You and I both know that this kind of thing happens all the time. Especially on SHH. A refusal to even consider the other point of view is usually indicative of this on these boards.

Once again, it seems to me that you have used "excuse" in an improper context. Not my "excuse". My assessment. My statement.

I am not using my assessment of what I believe happened to suggest that it's ok the scene isn't what it could have been, or that this is why it isn't what it could have been.

Nor am I using it to explain or excuse a weakness in the writing or logic of the scene.

Or apologetically in any sense.

I am pointing out why I believe she has suddenly decided to lessen her attacks, despite a lack of a decrease of power across the board.

Obviously it wasnt clearly meant to be in the movie, as I pointed out but you chose to ignore again, I know people who liked the movie who see no conflict in Pheonix in this scene, but you'll probably ignore this again.

Well then...two can play at that game. I know more people than you do who DO see conflict.

Yes...I will ignore that. What is the point of a debate tactic like that?

We have seen what she was capable of, and never in the movie was it shown, or even suggested, that she could wreak havoc on a whole area while not effecting one little tiny portion of it, look at the house scene, she is focused solely on Xavier in that scene, yet everything else in the immediate vicinity is effected, are you asking do believe she suddenly learned this a few days after the house scene?

What?

Per the scene, she's apparently not destroying Xavier for two reasons: Jean is apparently still sort of in control. 2. Because he's struggling to prevent her from doing so pyschically, as much as he can, until she just proves stronger, and he readies his "escape plan". That's what the whole sequence is about.

I feel like you are missing the point of what I'm talking about here, though.

Let's imagine you were to take a flamethrower and torch the area to the left and right of a person standing in front of you.

Then you took a match, and tried to burn the person in front of you with a match.

You are using energy on both the surroundings to the left and right, and the person in front of you.

But are you using as much on that person as you are on the area around them?

No.

And neither is Dark Phoenix.

EDIT: Just want to add after watching the scene again that you physically see power coming FROM HER in the scene as well and towards Logan, this is CLEARLY shown in the scene so I very much doubt she isnt going full tilt at Logan.

Yes, you can see the power coming from her. I never said she's not using power. I said she's apparently using less on Wolverine than she is on her surroundings.

The power obviously isn't THAT intense, because she can only destroy skin and muscle, piece by piece, whereas all around her, she's blowing buildings, vehicles, and entire bodies apart in totality.

So Wolverine's skin, regardless of how fast it grows back, withstands force better than a military bunker does?

As if we havent gone into this in depth enough, I have explained to you what I see in the movie, the only evidence we have is what the moie presents us, and sorry, I see no conflict, I see a DP pissed off because she cant blow him away despite trying her hardest, and ill say it again for the 50th time, you see her visibly straining to blow him away at one point, funnily enough just before she comes closest to doing so, thats all the evidence I need to make my point, but again, you'll just ignore it.

Evidence to make what point?

The fact that she's visibly straining proves one thing. That she's visibly straining. WHY is up to interpretation.

Now, one school of thought is that Dark Phoenix is in control, and trying her hardest (which is clealry NOT her hardest), and Wolverine's mere presence lessens her power, just...becase. That makes no sense.

Another is that since Dark Phoenix is at heart Jean...she can't bring herself to attack her former friend, who she's been trying to have help her throughout the film, with full force. That actually makes a little bit of sense, especially since we see in the film that they have a connection, even after she becomes Dark Phoenix.

She's clearly not trying her hardest, when she's effortlessly blowing buildings apart all around him.

Were she trying to blow Wolverine apart, and using her full power, she would be attacking his WHOLE body. Not PIECES of it. ALL his skin would be being attacked at once, and the muscles underneath, and his bones, like the soldiers. She's only blowing small chunks of him apart. Attacking him piece by piece. Does that strike you as what she's doing to the rest of the area?

No.

She attacks those soldiers in TOTAL.

She attacks the buildings around her in TOTAL.

Ditto the vehicles.

It strikes me as odd that you still think the "visible strain" is because she, despite apparently not being affected by Jean or conflicted at all, just, for some random reason, can't muster the power to blow more than a few pieces skin off the guy, after she's blown BUILDINGS to blue hell.

And so I'll say again.

Why would Dark Phoenix EVER have to strain to do something?

Because she's either holding back, or his weakening. Either way...it's obvious Jean is still in control on some level, in terms of what is happening.

Yes, throwing out childish insults like this is really going to help your argument, but keep it up, as you just seem more and more like a spoilt person who is upset because people dont like a movie you do.

No, I was actually serious. Because nothing I said in the bit you referred to as "reeking as excuses" can be defined as an "excuse".

-Explaining how Wolverine's powers are not a Deux Ex Machina is not an "excuse".
-An assessment of a scene is not an "excuse", either.
-Nor is stating that not being perfectly executed doesn't make something poor an "excuse".

I've also, far as I can tell, yet to insult you. Asking you if you understand the definition of excuse, when you have used it improperly several times, such as in the phrase "This reeks of excuses", is not an insult. It is not meant to offend, or hurt. It's meant to clarify your position on my statements.

I have no idea what you even mean by "spoilt" in this context, and I while I'm all for people having opinions about things, it really doesn't affect me in the least if you or other naysayers like the overall film or not.

I just think it's a bit ridiculous that so many people have missed out on a few of the subtleties the movie has to offer.

OK folks, the days of endless bickering over X3 have long past. Let's discuss the film without going after others for liking it or disliking it.

I don't think anyone has actually attacked anyone for liking or disliking it yet. I feel like this has been rather civil compared to the glory days.

 

[thegameq]

X-2 is way better movie then Superman returns, X-2 felt more like blockbuster, simply because it had more action then SR.

Every time I hear people complain that the movies are not close enough to source material, I have to ask, in what way?

The source material itself is often convoluted and sometimes contradicts itself.

The space opera and time travel story lines would eat up the budget and I don't think they would add anything to the movie universe.

A character like Cable has back story that most of the general audience would find confusing or laughable.

Besides the Phoenix, most of the space opera stuff is dull and I don't think the Phoenix needs to be connected to all of that, the Shi'ar Empire stuff is dull and the brood are just a rip off of the creatures from aliens. The FF should fight aliens, the X-Men should stuck human and mutant villains. Now the FF movies, there is a series movie that have never gotten the spirit of the comics right, you should count your blessings the X-Men movies didn't end up like that.

So what is missing from the films that would make them better and work on the silver screen?

The X-men are overtly sci-fi fantasy (adventure to some degree) mixed in with the day to day troubles of mutants trying to lead normal lives. The movies should reflect that. Obviously with the overwhelming amount of stories built up over the years writers and directors are going to cherry pick what they feel are the best or most influential stories;i.e. Phoenix Saga and others.

I've heard some say (including myself) an X-men film should have an overt fantasy theme mixed with the adventuresome, dark (albeit simplistic) and human angle of Star Wars. Various characters on different storylines that intersect later in the film or consequent films. Some say a covert op team approach could work. I think a combination of the two themes would be ideal. The prejudice/bias angle should obviously be present and it's importance in undeniable.

Considering the melding of different...agendas(?) needed for an X-film, I'm starting to understand why some people reccomend Whedon. Not that I agree with it. As I'm sure there are other fantasy directors who could do as could do a good job as well.

 

[Manic X]

I actually view the wolverine vs phoenix moment as more of jean vs phoenix.
I feel 'The Guard' is right on this one. Jean is allowing Wolverine to get closer, while Phoenix is struggling with both Jean and Wolverine. Had Wolverine really been able to withstand the phoenix with his healing ability, phoenix would have simply thrown him away.
She is a telekinetic after all.
Bottom line is, Jean fought for control to allow Wolverine to kill her. It's very simple in my view.

Also, The Guard also put the Xavier vs Phoenix perfectly into perspective. Jean may still be fighting the Phoenix in this scene, and it's quite obvious that Xavier is fighting the battle too. But Phoenix proved herself superior here.

I honestly never even viewed Wolverine's healing ability as going into 'God' mode, even after repeated viewings.
Fanboys timing his healing is just silly. It's the xmen for christ's sake. There are people with ridiculous powers left and right.

 

[Manic X]

I actually view the wolverine vs phoenix moment as more of jean vs phoenix.
I feel 'The Guard' is right on this one. Jean is allowing Wolverine to get closer, while Phoenix is struggling with both Jean and Wolverine. Had Wolverine really been able to withstand the phoenix with his healing ability, phoenix would have simply thrown him away.
She is a telekinetic after all.
Bottom line is, Jean fought for control to allow Wolverine to kill her. It's very simple in my view.

Also, The Guard also put the Xavier vs Phoenix perfectly into perspective. Jean may still be fighting the Phoenix in this scene, and it's quite obvious that Xavier is fighting the battle too. But Phoenix proved herself superior here.

I honestly never even viewed Wolverine's healing ability as going into 'God' mode, even after repeated viewings.
Fanboys timing his healing is just silly. It's the xmen for christ's sake. There are people with ridiculous powers left and right.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I honestly never even viewed Wolverine's healing ability as going into 'God' mode, even after repeated viewings.
Fanboys timing his healing is just silly. It's the xmen for christ's sake. There are people with ridiculous powers left and right.

No one "timed" his healing powers. The first time I heard Wolverine say "I'm the only one that could stop her" I was like "?????." And then when I saw Wolverine healing the wounds instantly after Phoenix dealt them I was like "what."

It is the X-Men but that isn't much of an excuse. Wolverine's healing factor was consistent up until that point.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

its possible that given the nature of his healing factor, that bigger and more severe his injures are, the quicker he heals, out of necessity to survive, I mean, if he didn't heal as fast as he did there he would've been nothing but a skeleton by the time he got to her

 

[Deaths Head II]

its possible that given the nature of his healing factor, that bigger and more severe his injures are, the quicker he heals, out of necessity to survive, I mean, if he didn't heal as fast as he did there he would've been nothing but a skeleton by the time he got to her

Yes, which is the point.

Wolverine should not be able to endure an onslaught by the Phoenix. The most powerful mutant imaginable and Wolverine knows immediately that he can stop her. And then he proves himself right.

 

[The Guard]

The whole "You're the only one who can stop her" thing shouldn't come as a shock, as it was set up earlier in the film. In the conversation with Storm, and then again, right before the final battle. It's not so much his POWER that makes him the one who can stop her. It's his personal connection to her. It's what he had to realize was his duty during the film. That it wasn't up to Xavier...or to anyone else...but him, to overcome his feelings for her and do what had to be done.

 

[cronosred]

No one "timed" his healing powers. The first time I heard Wolverine say "I'm the only one that could stop her" I was like "?????." And then when I saw Wolverine healing the wounds instantly after Phoenix dealt them I was like "what."

It is the X-Men but that isn't much of an excuse. Wolverine's healing factor was consistent up until that point.

I still find it odd none of Xaviers students noticed the mansion changed between X-Men 1 and X-Men 2, also when did Kitty, Pyro, and Jubilee get powers to change into different people, and if Wolverine heals slow all the time why is the floor not covered in blood after the Deathstrike/Wolverine fight? inconsistencies seem to be sprinkled throughout all of these movies.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I still find it odd none of Xaviers students noticed the mansion changed between X-Men 1 and X-Men 2, also when did Kitty, Pyro, and Jubilee get powers to change into different people, and if Wolverine heals slow all the time why is the floor not covered in blood after the Deathstrike/Wolverine fight? inconsistencies seem to be sprinkled throughout all of these movies.

I'm sorry but plot inconsistency isn't in the same ball park as set changes, cast changes, and continuity errors between scenes.

 

[danoyse]

The whole "You're the only one who can stop her" thing shouldn't come as a shock, as it was set up earlier in the film. In the conversation with Storm, and then again, right before the final battle. It's not so much his POWER that makes him the one who can stop her. It's his personal connection to her. It's what he had to realize was his duty during the film. That it wasn't up to Xavier...or to anyone else...but him, to overcome his feelings for her and do what had to be done.

Actually, I always thought it meant that he was the only one out of the people there that night that had a chance of stopping her because of his healing powers, which is true. Sure, it was the whole responsibility thing, but mainly it was the obvious reason that he had healing powers the others didn't.

I thought Logan had owned up to the responsibility issue after he tried to go after Jean himself and failed. He knew after that he needed the team.

And I don't think Jean was giving him the full strength of her powers when he approached her. She was using whatever control she had left to keep from killing him.

 

[The Overlord]

The X-men are overtly sci-fi fantasy (adventure to some degree) mixed in with the day to day troubles of mutants trying to lead normal lives. The movies should reflect that. Obviously with the overwhelming amount of stories built up over the years writers and directors are going to cherry pick what they feel are the best or most influential stories;i.e. Phoenix Saga and others.

I've heard some say (including myself) an X-men film should have an overt fantasy theme mixed with the adventuresome, dark (albeit simplistic) and human angle of Star Wars. Various characters on different storylines that intersect later in the film or consequent films. Some say a covert op team approach could work. I think a combination of the two themes would be ideal. The prejudice/bias angle should obviously be present and it's importance in undeniable.

Considering the melding of different...agendas(?) needed for an X-film, I'm starting to understand why some people reccomend Wheaton. Not that I agree with it. As I'm sure there are other fantasy directors who could do as could do a good job as well.

Most of the space opera stuff from x-Men is very boring, besides one story. Besides the Phoenix saga, how many good space opera X-Men stories have there been?

The Shi'ar is boring, the Brood are Aliens rip off, I don't those things make for compelling movies, it seems like a fan boy fantasy to include those elements in, because they are a waste of time and money.

I think the space opera stuff has mostly been bad in the X-Men.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, which is the point.

Wolverine should not be able to endure an onslaught by the Phoenix. The most powerful mutant imaginable and Wolverine knows immediately that he can stop her. And then he proves himself right.

Of course he's the only one who can stop her.

Reasons:
1) Healing power
2) Indestructible adamantium skeleton
3) His connection to Jean

Plus, we saw already that she wasn't letting the cure anywhere near her. So death was the only option.

 

[Manic X]

The whole "You're the only one who can stop her" thing shouldn't come as a shock, as it was set up earlier in the film. In the conversation with Storm, and then again, right before the final battle. It's not so much his POWER that makes him the one who can stop her. It's his personal connection to her. It's what he had to realize was his duty during the film. That it wasn't up to Xavier...or to anyone else...but him, to overcome his feelings for her and do what had to be done.

Bingo. This is exactly how I viewed the film.

 

[Ipodman]

In the comics, could Pheonix tear Wolverine apart? even his ada~ skeleton?

 

[Deaths Head II]

In the comics, could Pheonix tear Wolverine apart? even his ada~ skeleton?

No, but early comics suggested Wolverine could die even if only his skeleton was remaining. In Days of Future Past, Wolverine was killed by a Sentinel frying him so Phoenix should really have no problem if a Sentinel is capable of that. When Wolverine was "dead," he was dead. No ability to basically resurrect himself.

Recent comics like the one where Wolverine survived a nuclear blast seem to contradict this but I like to pretend they don't exist.

 

[The Guard]

Actually, I always thought it meant that he was the only one out of the people there that night that had a chance of stopping her because of his healing powers, which is true. Sure, it was the whole responsibility thing, but mainly it was the obvious reason that he had healing powers the others didn't.

I think it's a little bit of all the elements. His powers, his connection with Jean, etc. Which I think someone beat me to.

 

[crimsonspider89]

I hope the next movie has the following people.
Havok, Polaris, Quicksilver, Forge, Gambit, Jubilee, Bishop, Emma Frost, Nightcrawler
Give Rogue super strength and flight. Have Bobby/ Polaris date and have Gambit chase after Rogue.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

True, but you said:

Sorry Guard, but no, not in the previous 90 mins of X3 nor the whole of X1 and X2 did he heal that fast, at the end it was literally instant, and that wasnt the case for the rest of trilogy, as OTHERS have pointed out.

So I addressed your comment. Fact is, he showed himself capable of healing wounds to his skin and muscle at a rapid speed during the franchise.

Neither was his healing at the end of the film, as you put it, really all that literally instant. It took him some time to heal, just not a whole lot.

Guard, I wasnt agreeing with you about the end of X3, I acknowledged that at times in the previous movies, he healed faster than others, but I still stand by the fact that he healed a lot quicker at the end of X3 than he did in the rest of the trilogy, or even Wolverine, at times during the end scene he was healing virtually before he even got hit.

Now, he did not heal that fast from most of his other wounds before, but we're talking a 1-2 second difference when he wasn't knocked out in the other films. Neither was he that badly injured in the other movies, either. We can't possibly know the exact science or relative speed or degree of something like Wolverine's healing ability in the films, as we have little to base what exactly his healing rate is, though what happened to him period, and what is shown in WOLVERINE ORIGINS suggests that it has to be pretty fast. For all we know (And some moments suggests that this may be the case), he can actually control his healing abilities when he really wants to.



I said "Watch how fast". I didn't say he heals exactly as fast, though I recall it being a similar speed.

I can't time it perfectly because I lost my remote and don't own a working watch, but it takes, if you're counting by "One one thousand, two one thousand" fairly quickly, maybe two seconds for him to heal, and his wounds began healing almost immediately after he's hit in the head by that chunk of whatever it is. Mind you, he's just been smacked in the head by a rapidly moving projectile, and is clearly a bit dazed.

I can time what I found on YouTube, thanks to the handy clock.

The first time Dark Phoenix hits him during the climax, it takes him three or four seconds to heal.

It seems to take about the same amount of time, three or four seconds to heal when she exposes his arms right after that. Actually, it could be six or seven, it's hard to tell, but it looks like when the shot widens, she has already opened up his arm and shoulder, and it takes him a while to heal from all that as he's moving toward her.

It takes about three, four seconds for him to heal from his chest wound.

It takes about three seconds for him to heal from the facial wounds she gives him.

So there's maybe a one-two second variance between most of his healing times from the beginning of X3 and the end of X3. And if we take X-MEN into account, it takes him what, four or five seconds to heal from his head wound in the beginning of X-MEN? Again, only a few seconds variance.

The big difference is though, previously, there is a short delay before he heals, at the end of X3, its instant, as I pointed out above, there is no delay, he is healing instantly during that scene, not to mention faster. Its just a ridiculous ploy to make Wolverine the hero of the day.

Umm...proves what point?

No one's arguing his healing wasn't amped up a bit in X3, especially at the end. I'm saying it's similar in speed to what he had happen in the Danger Room, and that we've seen him heal fast before, in previous films. You suggested we had not. I pointed out that you were incorrect about that.

There's not really any such thing as consistency with Wolverine's healing factor. Even in previous films, different wounds healed at slightly different rates.

See above, there was a consistency in that there was always a delay before he healed, smaller wounds healed faster, this is just natural and to be expected, but when half of his front torso is blown off and its back within seconds, sorry that is just ridiculous and not consistent with the rest of the series.

It's not childish at all, it's very valid. The sentence you just posted is the first time here that I've seen you phrase what Dark Phoenix is doing as "holding back".

And no, you haven't really explained why you believe she's been holding back, because you had yet to admit she HAD been holding back. You've explained over and over again that you think the writers just were poor writers and made Wolverine into "God".

In fact, you've been saying things like this:

Are you kidding me, I am not judging anything with hate, I am judging what I have been presented with on screen. She never showed previously in the movie that she could vaporise whole areas and leave one tiny blip alone, so I dont think she does in this scene either, and as I have pointed out NUMEROUS times, you see her visibly straining just before she comes closest to vaporising him, but Wolverine suddenly gets a healing factor like God.

From what I have seen in the movie she is going at Logan with all she has, and he takes it, why else would she ask "You would die for them?" when he gets to her, he just risked his life going against an unleashed Pheonix, THATS why she asks.

So obvious countless people, including people who liked the movie, point to that scene as a ridiculous power upgrade for Wolverine. I have pointed out countless times before I am simply commenting on what the movie gave us, and what I see is no conflict from DP, she is trying her damnest to blow Wolverine away, but cant, because he gets a computer game like
upgrade because the writers could think of nothing but trying to make Wolverine look teh awesome! for the kids.

So now you've suddenly begun to phrase it as "holding back".

Interesting.

Well, this paragraph is a whole waste of time because I didnt admit she was holding back, I said I have given you explanation as to why I believe she ISNT holding back, check the quote again.

And for once, I'm not playing semantics here. I'm actually curious about your current position on the scene. Do you, or do you not believe that she must be holding back her power when she attacks Wolverine, given the large difference in the severity of her attack on Wolverine VS the area all around her?

And for the 50th time, I believe she is going at Wolverine with all she has, and his healing factor, amped up to the nines, is what saves him.

You and I both know that this kind of thing happens all the time. Especially on SHH. A refusal to even consider the other point of view is usually indicative of this on these boards.

So everyone is tarred with the same brush? Thats ridiculous, I am the first to role my eyes when someone doesnt give a valid excuse for disliking a movie, no matter what my opinion on the movie, but I have seen MANY a valid argument regarding people who dont like X3.

Once again, it seems to me that you have used "excuse" in an improper context. Not my "excuse". My assessment. My statement.

I am not using my assessment of what I believe happened to suggest that it's ok the scene isn't what it could have been, or that this is why it isn't what it could have been.

Nor am I using it to explain or excuse a weakness in the writing or logic of the scene.

Or apologetically in any sense.

I am pointing out why I believe she has suddenly decided to lessen her attacks, despite a lack of a decrease of power across the board.

But half the things you put on there, which were your observations, seemed like excuses, because they werent what I and other people had seen, it came accross like you were making excuses for the poor writing and direction in this scene by pointing things no one else had seen.

Well then...two can play at that game. I know more people than you do who DO see conflict.

Yes...I will ignore that. What is the point of a debate tactic like that?

The point is, no matter how many times you say its obvious what that scene is trying to convey, a lot of evidence suggests its not so obvious. Simple.

What?

Per the scene, she's apparently not destroying Xavier for two reasons: Jean is apparently still sort of in control. 2. Because he's struggling to prevent her from doing so pyschically, as much as he can, until she just proves stronger, and he readies his "escape plan". That's what the whole sequence is about.

I feel like you are missing the point of what I'm talking about here, though.

Let's imagine you were to take a flamethrower and torch the area to the left and right of a person standing in front of you.

Then you took a match, and tried to burn the person in front of you with a match.

You are using energy on both the surroundings to the left and right, and the person in front of you.

But are you using as much on that person as you are on the area around them?

No.

And neither is Dark Phoenix.

I totally know what you are going on about, and again (we really are going around in circles now) I disagree with it. Nothing in the movie before that incident showed that DP could decimate a large area without going full tilt at a microscopic part of it, so why would she suddenly be able to do this at the end of the movie?

Yes, you can see the power coming from her. I never said she's not using power. I said she's apparently using less on Wolverine than she is on her surroundings.

The power obviously isn't THAT intense, because she can only destroy skin and muscle, piece by piece, whereas all around her, she's blowing buildings, vehicles, and entire bodies apart in totality.

So Wolverine's skin, regardless of how fast it grows back, withstands force better than a military bunker does?

You can VISIBLY see power coming from her and going towards Wolverine, which again makes your point about her holding back moot. Its coming out of her in a circular pattern so everything around her is being effected, I didnt see any lessoning of that power going towards Wolverine, if anything, it was quite the opposite.


As for your question about Wolverine's skin and the military bunker, welcome to knowing why so many find the scene ridiculous.

Evidence to make what point?

The fact that she's visibly straining proves one thing. That she's visibly straining. WHY is up to interpretation.

I dont think it is up for interpretation when just after we see her straining, is when shw blows most of Wolverine's torso off.

Now, one school of thought is that Dark Phoenix is in control, and trying her hardest (which is clealry NOT her hardest), and Wolverine's mere presence lessens her power, just...becase. That makes no sense.

Another is that since Dark Phoenix is at heart Jean...she can't bring herself to attack her former friend, who she's been trying to have help her throughout the film, with full force. That actually makes a little bit of sense, especially since we see in the film that they have a connection, even after she becomes Dark Phoenix.

She's clearly not trying her hardest, when she's effortlessly blowing buildings apart all around him.

Were she trying to blow Wolverine apart, and using her full power, she would be attacking his WHOLE body. Not PIECES of it. ALL his skin would be being attacked at once, and the muscles underneath, and his bones, like the soldiers. She's only blowing small chunks of him apart. Attacking him piece by piece. Does that strike you as what she's doing to the rest of the area?

No.

She attacks those soldiers in TOTAL.

She attacks the buildings around her in TOTAL.

Ditto the vehicles.

It strikes me as odd that you still think the "visible strain" is because she, despite apparently not being affected by Jean or conflicted at all, just, for some random reason, can't muster the power to blow more than a few pieces skin off the guy, after she's blown BUILDINGS to blue hell.

And so I'll say again.

Why would Dark Phoenix EVER have to strain to do something?

Because she's either holding back, or his weakening. Either way...it's obvious Jean is still in control on some level, in terms of what is happening.

But she obviously isnt in control when previously she has blown the 2 people she loved most in this world, and 2 people she loved far more than Wolverine, away, it just doesnt make sense, Jean doesnt even love Wolverine, so why would she spare him out of everyone? She even kills Quills, etc, who are supposedly now her friends? The whole movie just doesnt make sense i'm afraid.

No, I was actually serious. Because nothing I said in the bit you referred to as "reeking as excuses" can be defined as an "excuse".

-Explaining how Wolverine's powers are not a Deux Ex Machina is not an "excuse".
-An assessment of a scene is not an "excuse", either.
-Nor is stating that not being perfectly executed doesn't make something poor an "excuse".

I've also, far as I can tell, yet to insult you. Asking you if you understand the definition of excuse, when you have used it improperly several times, such as in the phrase "This reeks of excuses", is not an insult. It is not meant to offend, or hurt. It's meant to clarify your position on my statements.

I have no idea what you even mean by "spoilt" in this context, and I while I'm all for people having opinions about things, it really doesn't affect me in the least if you or other naysayers like the overall film or not.

I just think it's a bit ridiculous that so many people have missed out on a few of the subtleties the movie has to offer.

No one has missed out, the film is devoid of subtlties, its terrible written, terribly directed, and even compared to the first 2 movies, pretty poorly acted. Ratner is incapable of subtle, and it shows throughout the movie, its all about getting to the next action scene no matter how incomprehensible (ala Wolverine vs Dark Pheonix) it is. Dont even get me started on Penn and Kinberg, they wouldnt know subtle if it married them! There are so many inconsistencies in the movie it is unbelievable, and this is just one of them.

 

[X-Maniac]

Guard, I wasnt agreeing with you about the end of X3, I acknowledged that at times in the previous movies, he healed faster than others, but I still stand by the fact that he healed a lot quicker at the end of X3 than he did in the rest of the trilogy, or even Wolverine, at times during the end scene he was healing virtually before he even got hit.



The big difference is though, previously, there is a short delay before he heals, at the end of X3, its instant, as I pointed out above, there is no delay, he is healing instantly during that scene, not to mention faster. Its just a ridiculous ploy to make Wolverine the hero of the day.





See above, there was a consistency in that there was always a delay before he healed, smaller wounds healed faster, this is just natural and to be expected, but when half of his front torso is blown off and its back within seconds, sorry that is just ridiculous and not consistent with the rest of the series.





Well, this paragraph is a whole waste of time because I didnt admit she was holding back, I said I have given you explanation as to why I believe she ISNT holding back, check the quote again.



And for the 50th time, I believe she is going at Wolverine with all she has, and his healing factor, amped up to the nines, is what saves him.





So everyone is tarred with the same brush? Thats ridiculous, I am the first to role my eyes when someone doesnt give a valid excuse for disliking a movie, no matter what my opinion on the movie, but I have seen MANY a valid argument regarding people who dont like X3.



But half the things you put on there, which were your observations, seemed like excuses, because they werent what I and other people had seen, it came accross like you were making excuses for the poor writing and direction in this scene by pointing things no one else had seen.





The point is, no matter how many times you say its obvious what that scene is trying to convey, a lot of evidence suggests its not so obvious. Simple.





I totally know what you are going on about, and again (we really are going around in circles now) I disagree with it. Nothing in the movie before that incident showed that DP could decimate a large area without going full tilt at a microscopic part of it, so why would she suddenly be able to do this at the end of the movie?





You can VISIBLY see power coming from her and going towards Wolverine, which again makes your point about her holding back moot. Its coming out of her in a circular pattern so everything around her is being effected, I didnt see any lessoning of that power going towards Wolverine, if anything, it was quite the opposite.


As for your question about Wolverine's skin and the military bunker, welcome to knowing why so many find the scene ridiculous.





I dont think it is up for interpretation when just after we see her straining, is when shw blows most of Wolverine's torso off.



But she obviously isnt in control when previously she has blown the 2 people she loved most in this world, and 2 people she loved far more than Wolverine, away, it just doesnt make sense, Jean doesnt even love Wolverine, so why would she spare him out of everyone? She even kills Quills, etc, who are supposedly now her friends? The whole movie just doesnt make sense i'm afraid.





No one has missed out, the film is devoid of subtlties, its terrible written, terribly directed, and even compared to the first 2 movies, pretty poorly acted. Ratner is incapable of subtle, and it shows throughout the movie, its all about getting to the next action scene no matter how incomprehensible (ala Wolverine vs Dark Pheonix) it is. Dont even get me started on Penn and Kinberg, they wouldnt know subtle if it married them! There are so many inconsistencies in the movie it is unbelievable, and this is just one of them.

Aveit, that was directed at Guard and I'm sure he'll respond but I think you're missing (or refusing to acknowledge) several points.

Firstly, Phoenix's power is not universally, uniformly applied to everything around her. Earlier in the film, only Xavier is blown to smithereens; the rest of the house is badly damaged but it is not blown to atoms. When Quill and Arclight are destroyed, the rest of the building doesn't blast to atoms at the same time. Phoenix can clearly be selective with her power, within the general area that it is affecting. She can focus it.

The film clearly establishes that Jean is still 'in there' somewhere. Logan says so to Storm, and then Jean's own ambivalence (calling him to the forest camp then turning away from him) shows two personalities were at work. Famke herself said she wanted it to be unpredictable to create more surprise and suspense. We also know Jean is battling to stop Phoenix destroying Xavier, but Phoenix's rage at Xavier's attempt to re-install the barriers was incredibly strong. The deleted scene with psychic voices during that battle confirms that Jean was present trying to help, but ends up 'slipping' and Phoenix then becomes the dominant and overpowering personality.

Wolverine clearly has the greatest chance of surviving Phoenix, because of his adamantium, his healing power and his connection to Jean. Also, we see from other events that she is capable of selectively targeting things, which means adjusting/restraining/intensifying power levels for specific people or objects.

Since Wolverine was not raised in the air (like Xavier) and since all his flesh and bones were not blown to atoms, it's obvious either she was not trying to do that (because she was toying with him) or that Jean was holding Phoenix back and stopping her from striking at full force. Both factors could apply.

There is nothing wrong with that ambiguity. Likewise, there has never been a clear, stated explanation for why Jean left the plane at the end of X2 - all Xavier says is that she 'made a choice', when people on here have often wondered why she didn't raise the jet while inside it, or why she didn't raise herself out of the way of the water if she could raise an entire plane.

Obviously, you overlook that because you like the film.

It looks like you are refusing to accept the things in X3 because you dislike the film. It's not that you don't like the film because of these things, you don't like the film and are therefore refusing to give it any credit at all.

It doesn't matter if you liked what you saw, it doesn't matter if you wanted Cyclops to be there, it doesn't matter if 99 per cent of fans wanted Cyclops to be the one to destroy Jean, what matters is what was on screen and whether it worked cinematically and narratively.

Clearly there are theories/explanations that answer what we were seeing. It's not as though the things discussed here by me, Guard and others are totally improbable or impossible or plucked out of thin air.

It also makes sense that Wolverine heals faster from a bigger attack, that his immune system goes into overdrive to protect him. This is reasonable. Your body's immune system will race to respond to a massive trauma more quickly than to a small, non-threatening one. Also, we saw Wolverine heal immediately when vital organs were sliced and skewered by Deathstrike's talons in X2.

The other factor to bear in mind is that I've never heard this much dissection of the Jean/Phoenix personality battle or the Wolverine healing power by regular filmgoers. Most of those accepted what they saw in the movie and aren't still going on about it years later.

And, furthermore, there have been just as many discussions regarding Superman's power levels in SR, with inconsistensies you have defended like crazy. You know what I mean, the parts where he is able to lift a kryptonite-laced island while he has a fragment of kryptonite embedded in his side, simply because he hovered in front of the sun for a moment. If sunlight really was the key, then why wasn't he put in the sunlight to heal after he fell to earth rather than in dark hospital room. The film has inconsistencies or at least there are elements of the story which fans have analysed, dissected and disagreed about ever since the film came out. And that was a Bryan Singer film, not a Ratner one, and a film you liked, not hated.

With that in mind, your agenda against X3 and refusal to want to like it is pretty obvious. Whether you accept the explanations or not, there are explanations and theories that make sense.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Aveit, that was directed at Guard and I'm sure he'll respond but I think you're missing (or refusing to acknowledge) several points.

Firstly, Phoenix's power is not universally, uniformly applied to everything around her. Earlier in the film, only Xavier is blown to smithereens; the rest of the house is badly damaged but it is not blown to atoms. When Quill and Arclight are destroyed, the rest of the building doesn't blast to atoms at the same time. Phoenix can clearly be selective with her power, within the general area that it is affecting. She can focus it.

The film clearly establishes that Jean is still 'in there' somewhere. Logan says so to Storm, and then Jean's own ambivalence (calling him to the forest camp then turning away from him) shows two personalities were at work. Famke herself said she wanted it to be unpredictable to create more surprise and suspense. We also know Jean is battling to stop Phoenix destroying Xavier, but Phoenix's rage at Xavier's attempt to re-install the barriers was incredibly strong. The deleted scene with psychic voices during that battle confirms that Jean was present trying to help, but ends up 'slipping' and Phoenix then becomes the dominant and overpowering personality.

Wolverine clearly has the greatest chance of surviving Phoenix, because of his adamantium, his healing power and his connection to Jean. Also, we see from other events that she is capable of selectively targeting things, which means adjusting/restraining/intensifying power levels for specific people or objects.

Since Wolverine was not raised in the air (like Xavier) and since all his flesh and bones were not blown to atoms, it's obvious either she was not trying to do that (because she was toying with him) or that Jean was holding Phoenix back and stopping her from striking at full force. Both factors could apply.

There is nothing wrong with that ambiguity. Likewise, there has never been a clear, stated explanation for why Jean left the plane at the end of X2 - all Xavier says is that she 'made a choice', when people on here have often wondered why she didn't raise the jet while inside it, or why she didn't raise herself out of the way of the water if she could raise an entire plane.

Obviously, you overlook that because you like the film.

It looks like you are refusing to accept the things in X3 because you dislike the film. It's not that you don't like the film because of these things, you don't like the film and are therefore refusing to give it any credit at all.

It doesn't matter if you liked what you saw, it doesn't matter if you wanted Cyclops to be there, it doesn't matter if 99 per cent of fans wanted Cyclops to be the one to destroy Jean, what matters is what was on screen and whether it worked cinematically and narratively.

Clearly there are theories/explanations that answer what we were seeing. It's not as though the things discussed here by me, Guard and others are totally improbable or impossible or plucked out of thin air.

It also makes sense that Wolverine heals faster from a bigger attack, that his immune system goes into overdrive to protect him. This is reasonable. Your body's immune system will race to respond to a massive trauma more quickly than to a small, non-threatening one. Also, we saw Wolverine heal immediately when vital organs were sliced and skewered by Deathstrike's talons in X2.

The other factor to bear in mind is that I've never heard this much dissection of the Jean/Phoenix personality battle or the Wolverine healing power by regular filmgoers. Most of those accepted what they saw in the movie and aren't still going on about it years later.

And, furthermore, there have been just as many discussions regarding Superman's power levels in SR, with inconsistensies you have defended like crazy. You know what I mean, the parts where he is able to lift a kryptonite-laced island while he has a fragment of kryptonite embedded in his side, simply because he hovered in front of the sun for a moment. If sunlight really was the key, then why wasn't he put in the sunlight to heal after he fell to earth rather than in dark hospital room. The film has inconsistencies or at least there are elements of the story which fans have analysed, dissected and disagreed about ever since the film came out. And that was a Bryan Singer film, not a Ratner one, and a film you liked, not hated.

With that in mind, your agenda against X3 and refusal to want to like it is pretty obvious. Whether you accept the explanations or not, there are explanations and theories that make sense.

XM, you are making the same mistake as Guard, thinking that I cant judge something rationally because I dislike the movie, this just isnt true at all, and is quite condescending as well. You also make another mistake he does by thinking your opinion on the matter is finite. It isnt, and why you insist on bringing SR into the equation every time is just beyond me.

 

[X-Maniac]

XM, you are making the same mistake as Guard, thinking that I cant judge something rationally because I dislike the movie, this just isnt true at all, and is quite condescending as well. You also make another mistake he does by thinking your opinion on the matter is finite. It isnt, and why you insist on bringing SR into the equation every time is just beyond me.

In all honesty, I don't think you are judging it rationally. It seems you are trying to make your reasons for NOT liking it to be FACTUAL, rather than based on OPINION. That's my view, of course.

I accept that you don't like it, for all sorts of reasons you/we have talked about at length. If you refuse to accept the explanations given, then that is up to you but those explanations do exist and there are people who believe them.

I mentioned SR because it is a Bryan Singer film that has debatable/controversial/unexplained plot points that some have said to be inconsistencies or flaws. And even X2 has such points. Bryan is viewed as a far superior filmmaker yet even he can create what some see as inconsistencies or power-level changes. Yet all that seems to be forgiven or forgotten by some people, including you, who loathe X3. That's illogical and inconsistent and rather hypocritical.

Whatever we think of Wolverine hogging the limelight or Cyclops being killed off, this stuff about Wolverine/Phoenix doesn't seem to me to be poor writing/storytelling at all. I don't find the Wolverine/Phoenix scene to be a negative element at all. There are elements I don't like in X3 that are much more illogical and problematic.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

In all honesty, I don't think you are judging it rationally. It seems you are trying to make your reasons for NOT liking it to be FACTUAL, rather than based on OPINION. That's my view, of course.

I accept that you don't like it, for all sorts of reasons you/we have talked about at length. If you refuse to accept the explanations given, then that is up to you but those explanations do exist and there are people who believe them.

I mentioned SR because it is a Bryan Singer film that has debatable/controversial/unexplained plot points that some have said to be inconsistencies or flaws. And even X2 has such points. Bryan is viewed as a far superior filmmaker yet even he can create what some see as inconsistencies or power-level changes. Yet all that seems to be forgiven or forgotten by some people, including you, who loathe X3. That's illogical and inconsistent and rather hypocritical.

Whatever we think of Wolverine hogging the limelight or Cyclops being killed off, this stuff about Wolverine/Phoenix doesn't seem to me to be poor writing/storytelling at all. I don't find the Wolverine/Phoenix scene to be a negative element at all. There are elements I don't like in X3 that are much more illogical and problematic.

Fair enough, this is all your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I have stated what I think X3 got right in the past, you have never, and will never hear me moaning about the lack of Shi'ar or Moon battle, etc, but for some reason, people defending the movie try and pin it on me that I have said these things.

Again, people who dislike the movie get tarred with the same brush for some reason, when plenty of people down the years, have come up with viable reasons for disliking it.

And I will agree that that scene isnt the worst in the movie, but it is the scene we are debating, and it isnt that I refuse to see certain things, its simply that I DONT see them, but for some reason certain people cant accept that.

 

[X-Maniac]

Fair enough, this is all your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I have stated what I think X3 got right in the past, you have never, and will never hear me moaning about the lack of Shi'ar or Moon battle, etc, but for some reason, people defending the movie try and pin it on me that I have said these things.

Again, people who dislike the movie get tarred with the same brush for some reason, when plenty of people down the years, have come up with viable reasons for disliking it.

And I will agree that that scene isnt the worst in the movie, but it is the scene we are debating, and it isnt that I refuse to see certain things, its simply that I DONT see them, but for some reason certain people cant accept that.

Right, okay. But I think you have to try to judge films by an equal (or at least similar) standard where possible. I've seen you apply detailed analysis and explanation to scenes in other films that are not spelled out through dialogue and exposition. You seem willing to give other directors/writers the benefit of the doubt, and fill in the gaps through your own deductions, possibly because you think a more intellectual filmmaker (such as Singer) must have thought of a reason for everything. But that's not to say Ratner, Penn and Kinberg didn't have reasons too.

I'm looking at what we saw on screen and then making an analysis based on that, as discussed in my other posts just above, which I won't go over again.
I'm trying not to come across as blunt or harsh, it's more that I'm trying to state things clearly and precisely.

I don't think any team who came in to make X3 would make a film that was utterly seamless in style/tone to the first two. You can see this is the case when you then look at Wolverine, where an Oscar-winning director and an acclaimed writer made something that is still, in places, out of step with Singer's movies because of creative choices etc. Much though we would all love a seamlessly flowing LoTR-style series, it won't happen when new people come on board. Even the Potter films have varied in tone and style with different directors, as have the Bond movies.

 

[Phoenix_Flare]

I wouldn't mind Singer coming back and directing XM:FC, since he is a gay man, he would be perfect to address the issues that teens who are gay, punk, gothic, etc go through, so this IS the movie for him...

My only concern w/Singer is the man can tell a story, but at the same time we need some action thats good as the story...all that 1 on 1 action is pointless if you're doing a "TEAM" based movie

also if First Class is made I don't want it to be the Cyclops/Jean ft. the X-Men sort of movie, give all the X-Men characters that are going to be used development and how each member is an important part of the team and not just there i.e. Colossus, Rogue(lack of), Shadowcat, etc...ala X3...

But if Fox is smart then they'll do it, or go w/a director that understand who the X-Men are as a whole 1st and individuals 2nd...