The Avengers Should this movie be based more on the Avengers or the Ultimates?

[Dog Brother #1]

Does anybody remember a few months back when before Renner was confirmed, he was talking a bit about the Hawkeye costume? The way he described it sounded an awful lot like the Ultimate one. I really hope they veer more towards his first Ultimates costume and not the gun toting version that came after it. I like the idea of using the best of all worlds to make the movie.

 

[The Overlord]

1: Because he's proven to be incredibly skilled at what he does and is willing to work for them. Besides, they can still put him through training after they hire him and put him in the field in a limited capacity as a trial period until they're sure he's up to snuff.

So a circus performer and ex criminal having superior skills to someone who received formal training by an black opts team for most of his adult life. That doesn't make sense.

2: The government hires criminals all the time. We grabbed as many Nazi scientists after WWII as we possibly could. The FBI hires former criminals to serve as consultants and profilers, so long as they're skilled enough in their area of crime. The fact is, if someone has the necessary skills, and will at the very least not betray them if they're paying him, the the government's not going to waste the resources.

Because the general public aren't actually sheep and are able to recognize when someone isn't a criminal anymore. Especially when they were just a thief and also did heroic acts and never killed anybody.

So how often does a ex criminal got hired as a cop and people are okay with that? Besides none of those examples you gave are not people on field, who have access to weapons and could kill people on the field.

Can you justify any of this besides the fact it happened to be 616 Hawkeye's back ground? Can you justify any of this on its own, without just mentioning its his background in the 616 universe? Why is 616 Hawkeye's background better for a movie then Ultimate Hawkeye, because one seems just easier to do on film then the other. I don't like 616 Hawkeye's that much frankly.

 

[The Question]

So a circus performer and ex criminal having superior skills to someone who received formal training by an black opts team for most of his adult life. That doesn't make sense.

Well, theoretically, yes, that is possible. There's nothing stopping a civilian from mastering a certain aspect of combat without ever joining a military service. But here's the thing, if the Goverment saw someone like Hawkeye, they wouldn't say "Hey, we don't need you, we've already got guys." Heck no. They always need more guys. They'd hire him on and put him through training to test his skills and hone them towards certain specialties they need from him.

So how often does a ex criminal got hired as a cop and people are okay with that?

Almost never. But then that's not what I'm talking about. He's not acting as a police officer here. He's acting as a special operative of an intelligence service, one who may simply have been deputized and not be officially part of the chain of command.

Besides none of those examples you gave are not people on field, who have access to weapons and could kill people on the field.

Well, since Hawkeye has never proven to be a violent criminal, that's not an issue. And the fact is the government wouldn't put him in the field if they weren't sure they could trust him, or at least trust his desire for money and not being imprisoned or outright executed.

Can you justify any of this besides the fact it happened to be 616 Hawkeye's back ground? Can you justify any of this on its own, without just mentioning its his background in the 616 universe? Why is 616 Hawkeye's background better for a movie then Ultimate Hawkeye, because one seems just easier to do on film then the other. I don't like 616 Hawkeye's that much frankly.

Yes. and I think I have justified it, I think you're just nit picking. But why do I think it's inherently better for a movie? Because it's more interesting from a storytelling standpoint. He's got a lot more baggage and a lot more layers to him than Ultimate Hawkeye, which makes him an all around more interesting character than Ultimate Hawkeye.

 

[chris moore]

Why does it seem to be gospel that Hawkeye will be a SHIELD agent or ex-military or something? Aside from Black Widow being an official agent (cos she already is in movieverse), there's no reason anyone else has to be. The rest (possible Cap exception) could well be brought together by Fury not to be on the SHIELD payroll, but simply to work together when the need arises by "a gentleman's agreement" as it were.

Or to put it another way - you think the God of Thunder is going to sign onto US military service in order to be a part of the Avengers? Hell no. He joins and stays purely out of respect for particular heroes, and responsibility for doing the right thing to help humanity.

 

[Michellemabelle]

I think it should take elements from both. And even though it would never happen in a PG-13 Avengers film, I'd wanna see Hawkeye using his fingernails to kill people.

 

[chris moore]

I want to see Hawkeye (funny how's the focus of most Avengers discussion now) not kill a soul, because he's so good he can shoot an arrow into pretty much any spot on the body and incapacitate without killing them. You want to shoot first and ask questions later, but actually have someone to question? Get Hawkeye to do the shooting.

 

[DACMAN]

is the movie called Avengers or Ultimates????
what parts of Spider-man and Iron Man were based on the Ultimates

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college.

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.

 

[Anubis]

A combination of both works. He was a circus performer/criminal, gets caught, then gets an offer from SHIELD. Training, new life, all that jazz.

 

[roach]

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college.

Yes he did chase down the killer and accidently kill him in pretty much the same way as the movie...its how he finds out the guy was the guy he let go. MJ also lived next door in 616 but he never saw her...her living next door os how she discovered he was Spiderman

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.

These movies are more 616 than Ultimate. For every 1 or 2 Ultimate reference there are hundreds more 616 references.
Out of all the costumes in the movies pretty much all of them have been 616 or movie designs. Save for Nick Fury every design has been 616.
Spiderman=616
X-men=Movie designs
FF=616
DD=616
GR=616
Hulk=616
Cap=616 with some Ulti elements
Thor=616

 

[Chris Wallace]

I think that between Jackson playing Fury, (A move I applauded at the time but now I'm not so sure) the government being behind the creation of the team and everybody being a SHIELD agent, there's too much "Ultimates" influence on the project as it is. I want the Avengers that I grew up on. A team of superheroes, not costumed grunts with bad attitudes. There's more bad than good in the "Ultimate" line.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think that between Jackson playing Fury, (A move I applauded at the time but now I'm not so sure) the government being behind the creation of the team and everybody being a SHIELD agent, there's too much "Ultimates" influence on the project as it is. I want the Avengers that I grew up on. A team of superheroes, not costumed grunts with bad attitudes. There's more bad than good in the "Ultimate" line.

I really doubt they're going to characterize the other characters after Ultimate characters.

 

[chris moore]

I agree with Parker. Though I completely agree with Wallace's assessment of the Ultimates - best way I've heard it put

 

[Chris Wallace]

These movies are more 616 than Ultimate. For every 1 or 2 Ultimate reference there are hundreds more 616 references.
Out of all the costumes in the movies pretty much all of them have been 616 or movie designs. Save for Nick Fury every design has been 616.
Spiderman=616
X-men=Movie designs
FF=616
DD=616
GR=616
Hulk=616
Cap=616 with some Ulti elements
Thor=616

Spider-Man doesn't truthfully have an "Ultimate" costume. Neither does Daredevil. Hulk doesn't wear a costume at all and it's really just a matter of grey or green. The X-Men movie preceeds the existence of the "Ultimate" line. And there is no "Ultimate" Ghost Rider as far as I know. And truthfully, DD, GR and the FF all had original costumes in their movies.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I agree with Parker. Though I completely agree with Wallace's assessment of the Ultimates - best way I've heard it put

I agree with PW that they probably won't-the question was whether or not they should.

 

[TikkiEXX]

Spider-Man doesn't truthfully have an "Ultimate" costume. Neither does Daredevil. Hulk doesn't wear a costume at all and it's really just a matter of grey or green. The X-Men movie preceeds the existence of the "Ultimate" line. And there is no "Ultimate" Ghost Rider as far as I know. And truthfully, DD, GR and the FF all had original costumes in their movies.

well Ultimate Ghost Rider was in the most recent arc of Ultimate Avengers. not too different from 616 GR actually. and i dont really get all the Ultimates bashing. i can understand if you dont like it, but considering the Ultimate Universe is supposed to be different from the 616 U. i went in expecting the characters to be different. or else what would be the point. i dont compare 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap because theyre completely different people for the most part. i dunno, the changes never bothered me, Hell im still waiting on a crossover between Universes. lol

 

[chris moore]

I liked that originally the Ultimate universe was more of a grounded, continuity sensitive, cleaned up version of the 616MU. Like they took the best qualities of the characters and streamlined some of them. Like Peter was still a nerd and not the most popular kid in school. But he wasn't overly abused and berated like the 60's teenage Parker. Moonknight's split personality was taken to another level but one that worked well. Attempting to recreate the SSS became a useful tool to explain the ridiculous number of superhumans popping up.
But then we started getting arrogant Cap, terrorist Longshot, Gun toting death row Hawkeye, Blinged up Black Hulk, Blonde Tony. It just got a little carried away with the 'make it different'

 

[wobbly]

There have certainly been elements from the Ultimate line used in the movies (Mutated Dr. Doom would be another example, but that was a Fox film) but for the most part Marvel have been keeping them more 616 based: Tony is not a mutant whose entire body in basically one huge brain and his armour is right out of the 616 books. Hulk is not a horny cannibal, and Thor is clearly more 616 based than the hippie wannabe Ultimate version.

With Cap, again I don't think they are gonna pull much from Ultimates there other than some window dressing (we already know we are getting a classic Red Skull, not Cap's bastard freak son for example). Ultimate Cap is often not very likeable at all as well so that's another reason I doubt they will take too much from that version.

Fury, whose casting was entirely down to the fact Hitch drew him to look exactly like Jackson) is obviously Ultimates inspired in his appearance, but so far we have not seen enough of him to say what kind of a person he is (Ultimate Fury, like Ult Cap, can be a complete a-hole at times).

For Avengers I don't see any reason why we should expect things to be any different: A few ideas taken from the Ultimates, but still mostly 616 based. For example I can imagine Shield would be trying to 'officially' run the team at the start (and the government has tried to do that in the 616 books as well) and the likes of Tony, Thor, and even Cap tell Fury 'we do it our way or no way'.

 

[The Question]

There have certainly been elements from the Ultimate line used in the movies (Mutated Dr. Doom would be another example, but that was a Fox film) but for the most part Marvel have been keeping them more 616 based: Tony is not a mutant whose entire body in basically one huge brain and his armour is right out of the 616 books. Hulk is not a horny cannibal, and Thor is clearly more 616 based than the hippie wannabe Ultimate version.

With Cap, again I don't think they are gonna pull much from Ultimates there other than some window dressing (we already know we are getting a classic Red Skull, not Cap's bastard freak son for example). Ultimate Cap is often not very likeable at all as well so that's another reason I doubt they will take too much from that version.

Fury, whose casting was entirely down to the fact Hitch drew him to look exactly like Jackson) is obviously Ultimates inspired in his appearance, but so far we have not seen enough of him to say what kind of a person he is (Ultimate Fury, like Ult Cap, can be a complete a-hole at times).

For Avengers I don't see any reason why we should expect things to be any different: A few ideas taken from the Ultimates, but still mostly 616 based. For example I can imagine Shield would be trying to 'officially' run the team at the start (and the government has tried to do that in the 616 books as well) and the likes of Tony, Thor, and even Cap tell Fury 'we do it our way or no way'.

To be fair, 616 Fury is also an a-hole sometimes.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I agree with PW that they probably won't-the question was whether or not they should.

They shouldn't. Not because I can't stand Ultimate Captain America and Ultimate Iron Man, but because the Ultimates is more a deconstruction of the 616 Avengers than an actual universe on its own. Of all the Ultimate books, I disliked Ultimates the most (I can take it or leave it with Ultimate X-men though I loved the first few years of Ultimate Spiderman) because they didn't feel like heroes. The only Ultimate character I actually liked was Ultimate Thor, but I hated the whole "Is he a god?" aspect of Thor.

Now I don't mind a few aspects, like Captain America costume or some of Tony Stark's personality which has shown in the movies and I liked the Nick Fury they used solely on the fact that they used Samuel Jackson likeness and if you can get him in the film its obvious you go with him over 616 Fury.

But this film shouldn't be a forced deconstruction of superheroes that the Ultimates were. It should be (for lack of a better word) a celebration of heroes. It should showcase Marvel's finest heroes that we can look up to. I believe we're going to get that because Whedon's a big fan of the original Avengers comics.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college. .

NO part of Spider-Man is based on "Ultimate", because the movie was already in development when "Ultimate" was introduced. I think if anything, it's the other way around.

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.

Speak for yourself. I personally hate ALL of the Ultimates' costumes. I like superheroes to look like superheroes. "Ultimates" gave us a bunch of suits that looked like rejects from the X-Men movies, an overly militaristic Cap and a Thor whose suit looks like Stark designed it. I, for one, am immensely grateful that that suit in particular didn't make it to film.

 

[Chris Wallace]

They shouldn't. Not because I can't stand Ultimate Captain America and Ultimate Iron Man, but because the Ultimates is more a deconstruction of the 616 Avengers than an actual universe on its own. Of all the Ultimate books, I disliked Ultimates the most (I can take it or leave it with Ultimate X-men though I loved the first few years of Ultimate Spiderman) because they didn't feel like heroes. The only Ultimate character I actually liked was Ultimate Thor, but I hated the whole "Is he a god?" aspect of Thor.

Now I don't mind a few aspects, like Captain America costume or some of Tony Stark's personality which has shown in the movies and I liked the Nick Fury they used solely on the fact that they used Samuel Jackson likeness and if you can get him in the film its obvious you go with him over 616 Fury.

But this film shouldn't be a forced deconstruction of superheroes that the Ultimates were. It should be (for lack of a better word) a celebration of heroes. It should showcase Marvel's finest heroes that we can look up to. I believe we're going to get that because Whedon's a big fan of the original Avengers comics.

I agree overall. Except where Cap's costume is concerned.

 

[Chris Wallace]

well Ultimate Ghost Rider was in the most recent arc of Ultimate Avengers. not too different from 616 GR actually. and i dont really get all the Ultimates bashing. i can understand if you dont like it, but considering the Ultimate Universe is supposed to be different from the 616 U. i went in expecting the characters to be different. or else what would be the point. i dont compare 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap because theyre completely different people for the most part. i dunno, the changes never bothered me, Hell im still waiting on a crossover between Universes. lol

I'm fine with a different interpretation but I feel that in many aspects, "Ultimate" is a BAD interpretation-particularly where the Avengers are concerned.
EDIT-and since "Ultimate" GR was introduced AFTER the movie, it still doesn't count.