Snyder and Goyer explain Man of Steel.

[sf2]

Lets revist Superman 2. Because many believe that Superman handle the situation better.

Superman gets his powers back. Ask Zod to step outside. They fight, they fight, they fight. Then they completely stop fighting. And they see that Superman cares about the people so they decide to break things off buildings so it would fall on the people on the streets. Superman catches them.

More damage happens. Superman punches Non through a building, he throws Zod into Coke sign. After SUpes gets hit by a bus he leaves without saying anything. He takes a huge leap of faith that Lex Luthor will bring the to the Fortress of Solitude so he can use the chamber to take away the powers of Zod and others.


Number 1, how irresponsible of Superman to not lure Zod away immediately if he indeed had the plan to use the chamber. Why waste time? People got injured, cars and building were damaged. Why waste time fighting if that was your plan?

And what a major plothole. How the hell would Superman know, they would follow him if he did not affirmatively lead them to follow him. If Lex wasnt there Zod would have continued to reign terror, while Supes is sitting on his hands waiting for them to come. And how did Lex know he would retreat there? Supes could have retreated anywhere in the world.

The Reeve Superman was very irresponsible there. If you had a plan do it immediately, slap Zod in the face and run north.

Cavill's Superman had no choice. He had to chase down Zod and take care of him or else there would have been more damage. Cavill had no chamber, he had not fortress of Solitude. We honor the Donner Reeve so much because he showed concern and saved people. But he wasted time there.

But do you know why Donner allowed Reeve to waste time? He had to show a battle in the city as opposed to a battle in the north. Same with Snyder, you fight in the city. There was a lot of damage but like Donner, Snyder took an artistic decision.

Can't criticise donner's. They will go mad! Lol.

Seriously. .. how could they be so damn biased n harsh on MOS!!!

 

[Lencho01]

What are the reasons mentioned there?

Birthright

Spoiler

Waid made it that Superman can pretty much see the life force/soul of everyone and everything. So, when someone dies, he can watch it fade away until its gone. Waid also made him a vegan, which Pa Kent found odd since he was raised by farmers.

All-Star

Spoiler

Morrison made Lex being able experience how Superman sees that everyone and everyone are all connected down to the smallest particle...

 

[Marvin]

1. He has spent his entire life being an outsider looking in on mortality, recognising how fragile life is. It's given him a different kind of perspective on it than we can really imagine.

You can see this in how Birthright with how he sees life in general, as well as during his speech to Darkseid in Justice League about how careful he usually always has to be with his powers. (World of cardboard)

2. Killing changes you. Superman understands this. It can be a justified kill, or even an accidental kill, but (as is often addressed in fiction) taking a life has an effect on you. And that effect could very possibly be a slippery slope into turning to that resolution more quickly than you would have each way. Kind of like a gateway drug, the more you do it, the less bad it seems, and the more other things that are worse start seeming okay too.

This is what we see in Superman vs The Elite.

3. He's trying to set an example. Representing an ideal. Not one that he even thinks all people should live by stricly (because he wouldn't berate a policeman for firing his weapon if threatened).

Just something he thinks HE should rigidly stick to if he is to gain any real trust from the people of earth. Because the minute his principals waver, people start to question whether he can be trusted.

That is not to say he would NEVER kill. But as we saw in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, if he does, he believes he has crossed a line he can never cross again. And so he strips himself of his powers.

Those are a few reasons as I understand them anyway.

I like your reasons, I grew up with them and defend them to this day(tbh).

The real question is, how was that not represented in this film? I would love to see an alternate cut where Superman kills his enemies at the first chance he gets. Even flies though people to kill his enemies, but he's not "Superior" He's superman, doing the best he can especially at the end when faced with a no win scenario.

People can believe what they want, but do we honestly think the superman in the comics, if faced with the same decision wouldn't make the same decision?(and yes ignoring that it's happened twice already by my count).

He's still everything you've described he doesn't fight like iron man and the rest of them. Can we not attribute that to the Kents and call it a day? As for Snyder, he's very possibly given the public a reason to think superman has the most motivation against killing I've seen in one of these movies besides batman just saying it over and over.

This public hyper awareness that superman hates killing is great for the character I think.

as for the elite. Performing an onsite lobotomy isn't the pinnacle of morality. Talk about playing god.
(though people should know going forward, this is why superman wins against thor and hulkt:, just saying)

 

[Project862006]

yet people forget zod kill in superman 2 is far more malice

kills a powerless zod with no threat to anyone

then smiles lol

 

[Lencho01]

There's footage of Zod and co. getting arrested.

So, pretty much he was just teaching those *****ebags a lesson.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

There's footage of Zod and co. getting arrested.

So, pretty much he was just teaching those *****ebags a lesson.

Footage that was never included in the original release and for many years no one batted an eye at how they perceived Superman to handle the situation. Hurting a man no stronger than a normal human and throwing him seemingly to his death. No one thought twice over this. The difference, it was a light moment with some humor thrown in. But the result was the same.

 

[Smashlilman]

I like your reasons, I grew up with them and defend them to this day(tbh).

The real question is, how was that not represented in this film? I would love to see an alternate cut where Superman kills his enemies at the first chance he gets. Even flies though people to kill his enemies, but he's not "Superior" He's superman, doing the best he can especially at the end when faced with a no win scenario.

People can believe what they want, but do we honestly think the superman in the comics, if faced with the same decision wouldn't make the same decision?(and yes ignoring that it's happened twice already by my count).

He's still everything you've described he doesn't fight like iron man and the rest of them. Can we not attribute that to the Kents and call it a day? As for Snyder, he's very possibly given the public a reason to think superman has the most motivation against killing I've seen in one of these movies besides batman just saying it over and over.

This public hyper awareness that superman hates killing is great for the character I think.

as for the elite. Performing an onsite lobotomy isn't the pinnacle of morality. Talk about playing god.
(though people should know going forward, this is why superman wins against thor and hulkt:, just saying)

You know what's funny this rebooted superman's world and story plays out exactly like i Imaged a Hulk movie would. Massive collateral damage caused mostly by the enemies action but the Hulk still gets blamed even though he was trying to fight off the person that caused most of it. Being a wandering drifter, working Odd jobs and trying to lay low as to not reveal him self. Being mostly sad and unhappy 90% of the time. The only difference is that he's goign to grow over time into the morale superman we know. It's like he's evolving from Bruce Banner into Clark Kent.

 

[sf2]

If they were showing the same. I think they would condemn even more severe.
How could he just left the people behind!!!!
Superman is so damn chicken!!!
He is so stupid!!! How can he know for sure, the three kryptonian will follow him??? They might continue terrorising the city!!!

 

[Lencho01]

Footage that was never included in the original release and for many years no one batted an eye at how they perceived Superman to handle the situation. Hurting a man no stronger than a normal human and throwing him seemingly to his death. No one thought twice over this. The difference, it was a light moment with some humor thrown in. But the result was the same.

For some people, that's all they've ever seen too. Even some people never went to the conclusion that he killed them. Either way, the footage was shot and used in one case and not in another. Why not in both, I have no idea. So, the Reeve Superman wasn't a killer (except for his evil self, which I guess was supposed to be some sort of psychological battle or something like that).

 

[sf2]

For some people, that's all they've ever seen too. Even some people never went to the conclusion that he killed them. Either way, the footage was shot and used in one case and not in another. Why not in both, I have no idea. So, the Reeve Superman wasn't a killer (except for his evil self, which I guess was supposed to be some sort of psychological battle or something like that).

Some of the fans r so goddamn double standard.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

For some people, that's all they've ever seen too. Even some people never went to the conclusion that he killed them. Either way, the footage was shot and used in one case and not in another. Why not in both, I have no idea. So, the Reeve Superman wasn't a killer (except for his evil self, which I guess was supposed to be some sort of psychological battle or something like that).

If I had to guess, I would imagine that most people after watching the original cut of Superman 2 believed Superman to kill Zod. That's just a guess though. Heck, his "death" is even included in sites like this:

http://www.moviedeaths.com/superman_ii/general_zod/

 

[Lencho01]

Some of the fans r so goddamn double standard.

What double standard?

 

[Lencho01]

If I had to guess, I would imagine that most people after watching the original cut of Superman 2 believed Superman to kill Zod. That's just a guess though. Heck, his "death" is even included in sites like this:

http://www.moviedeaths.com/superman_ii/general_zod/

Yeah, that's the cut most people have seen since that's the one they showed in theaters. The other one people have seen either on TV or I think in the Donner cut, but I haven't seen that one.

You can see them getting hauled off by the Arctic Police hehe here around 0:11...

[YT]mA5d66AnT7s[/YT]

 

[Marvin]

lol I completely forgot that talking point.

All this talk of what superman would and should do in the comics and in that movie the dude up and leaves mid fight?
Didn't the villains just say they found out his weakness? Dropping things on innocent humans?

Well I guess going to him makes more sense than bringing his ass back to you.
=Contrived to a fault.

 

[sf2]

What double standard?

Can tolerant n accept all flaws in donner's but can't take even a single sand in MOS.
MOS must be perfect n morally right. If not, smash it with rotten tomato.

 

[Lencho01]

Can tolerant n accept all flaws in donner's but can't take even a single sand in MOS.
MOS must be perfect n morally right. If not, smash it with rotten tomato.

People call out the flaws in the Reeve films too no matter how much they like them. Just like any other film, Superman-related or not.

 

[mohoo]

And yet, that IS still arguably in the movie. [BLACKOUT]Why do you think he was begging Zod to not make him do it? He CLEARLY was against killing BEFORE that moment, and cemented even more by his reaction.[/BLACKOUT]

Yes, he was against killing (like most of us) before that moment. but even more after it.

 

[mohoo]

Birthright

Spoiler

Waid made it that Superman can pretty much see the life force/soul of everyone and everything. So, when someone dies, he can watch it fade away until its gone. Waid also made him a vegan, which Pa Kent found odd since he was raised by farmers.

All-Star

Spoiler

Morrison made Lex being able experience how Superman sees that everyone and everyone are all connected down to the smallest particle...

Good to know.

Thanks!

 

[Senator Pleasury]

As I said on another thread, there's a difference between "I believe killing is wrong" and "I will NEVER kill."

Spoiler

I think it's pretty clear in the film that Superman was against resorting to killing PRIOR to that moment, but being FORCED into that situation takes it to another level. It TRULY tests Superman, and will define him for the future.

Well, that is precisely the problem: we don't know what Superman's stand is regarding[BLACKOUT] killing[/BLACKOUT]. We assume it because we are fans of the character, but it is not in the movie as a theme, so we can know what [BLACKOUT]being forced to kill Zod means to Superman.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Lencho01]

Good to know.

Thanks!

You're welcome. You should check them out if you ever get the chance.

Another comic I'd recommend is Superman: Secret Identity. In that one, there's a kid named Clark Kent in the "real world" and then one day he just develops the powers of Superman.

Also, Red Son is another awesome one. That one shows a little bit of Superman's view on not killing. The ending blew my mind too.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Umm No. Breaking the rules would be something like defying nature and turning back time to stop the events from happening. Turning into an executioner is just doing what any normal person would have done.

......what?? That makes no sense.

jeezusss. I have no idea how my post wasn't clear to you guys.

Superman normally has a rule. Superman broke his rule to defeat Zod. I think that's exactly what Snyder was saying.

 

[X Knight]

nowhere in MOS does it suggest Clark/Superman doesn't believe killing/murdering is wrong.

as I said before, all of his actions point to just the opposite. that he does value human life.

if, however, this Superman had been portrayed throughout the movie as a violent young man who loved getting into fights with bullies, abused his powers by hurting others, even killed Faora and Nam-Ek immediately to end the threat, then felt guilt/anguish after killing Zod and realized he has gone too far and vows never to kill again, THEN we would have a problem.

THAT'S not Superman. That would be a Superman who showed no regard/value for life but then had a "conversion" after killing Zod.

HOWEVER, that's not what we got in the movie. there's no evidence to suggest that the Kents DID NOT teach him to value life. in fact, based on how he acted throughout the movie, it's fair to say they probably did and raised him right.

Snyder probably didn't articulate the thought clearly, and I think we're misinterpreting what he ( and Goyer ) said.

I don't think they mean he suddenly realizes killing is wrong after killing Zod. He already knows that, but now he realizes he can never do that again.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Weak explanation on behalf of goyer/Snyder.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

nowhere in MOS does it suggest Clark/Superman doesn't believe killing/murdering is wrong.

But for all the explanation going on, nowhere they explained it was something crucial for him.

as I said before, all of his actions point to just the opposite. that he does value human life.

Zod's not human. He's not that easy to stop.

HOWEVER, that's not what we got in the movie. there's no evidence to suggest that the Kents DID NOT teach him to value life. in fact, based on how he acted throughout the movie, it's fair to say they probably did and raised him right.

Well, Pa Kent taught him to value, but not to the point of saving them.

Snyder probably didn't articulate the thought clearly, and I think we're misinterpreting what he ( and Goyer ) said.

I don't think they mean he suddenly realizes killing is wrong after killing Zod. He already knows that, but now he realizes he can never do that again.

They certainly made it sound like he needed this to elarn it.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Well, Pa Kent taught him to value, but not to the point of saving them.

It's not that cut and dry though. When Clark asks what he should have done, let them die, how does Pa Kent answer? Does he say yes? He says, maybe but you can sense the amount of confusion in his voice. Maybe implies he is not entirely sure how the situation should have been handled, just that he needs to keep his powers a secret for now.