So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

Discussion in 'The Amazing Spider-Man' started by Thread Manager, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. UltimateWebhead

    UltimateWebhead Black's the new Red&Blue

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    Reading over the last couple of pages in this thread has brought a smile to my face. So many good posts. I'd love to quote them but I'd end up using an entire page in doing so, lol.

    I won't deny either that there are those 'bandwagoning' fans that just jump on the newest, shiniest object in the room and claim it to be their favorite. That happens with almost everything though. For example, you'll see an exponential increase in the number of fans for the superbowl winner each year.

    With that being said, there are many posters here on SHH that have given very good, well-thought, specific explanations as to why they prefer ASM to whatever film or films that Raimi created. To blanket one of those individuals or even myself into a 'bandwagoning' group is just silly.

    I wish that I had the ability to explain myself as well as some of the posters on here (looking at you Shikamaru and Fox) but I thoroughly enjoy the new approach that Webb and Co are taking on my beloved Spider-man. As Oz pointed out, everything about the movie feels so grounded and genuine. And I agree with Smegger, I've watched ASM about 5 times now since owning it on Bluray and my enjoyment of the film grows upon each viewing.
     
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  2. spidermanJLA!~

    spidermanJLA!~ SUPERHERO

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    I wonder how old Peter Parker is in ASM. I would say a junior as opposed to a senior in the Raimi series.
     
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  3. TheWallCrawler

    TheWallCrawler hero or a menace?

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  4. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    Both him and Gwen are 17 and seniors.
     
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  5. chaseter

    chaseter Esteemed Member

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    I think more people claim to have hated the Raimi series after 3 and after the reboot was announced than let on in here.

    Like here for example
    http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=10912272&postcount=59
     
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  6. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't necessarily imply that he was a big fan of the Raimi films in general originally. All it means is that he believes the movie would've turned out better if it had an extra 50 minutes of footage, which I kinda agree with because it would've seemed less rushed. It still wouldn't have made it a better Spider-Man film (at least not by much) but there are definitely chances it could've gave it a boost at least as just a stand-alone movie.

    Plus, notice how he says "Spidey 3 could do the same if it's done well." Basically saying that that length would've been perfect for the movie only IF the movie was well done and a good movie from the beginning (which it wasn't) so it's not necessarily a contradiction.
     
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  7. Picard Sisko

    Picard Sisko Prepare to be Assimilated

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    But see, The Dark Knight does not come close to Shawshank Redemption, JFK, The Godfather, The Wizard of Oz, Goodfellas, etc. After seeing it so many times, I don't think the Dark Knight is a classic. I still think the Spider-Man movies are way above average (well, the first two), but I don't think they are far off from TDK.
     
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  8. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    It does for me. It has not reached their level of status in terms of long time classics, but as far as quality goes it's up there with them.

    I think Spider-Man 2 is the only one that is a contender to even be in the same hemisphere of quality as TDK.
     
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  9. Picard Sisko

    Picard Sisko Prepare to be Assimilated

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    I disagree, but to each his own :)

    I think Spider-Man 2 is the only one that is a contender to even be in the same hemisphere of quality as TDK.[/QUOTE]

    Well yeah, I agree that Spider-Man 2 is in the same hemisphere as TDK. But I think that Spider-Man 1 is right below it.

    Here is how I generally categorize some of them:

    Best of the best: SM2, TDK, Avengers, X2: X-Men United
    Great: SM1, BB, Iron Man, Superman II
    Good: TASM, TDKR, X-Men
    Okay: Thor, Captain America, TIH
    Bad: SM3, X3, IM2, Batman Forever
    Disgustingly Bad: Batman & Robin, Superman IV
     
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  10. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Lol, and being an outcast as in TAS-M? We will always disagree, because I take "clumsy dork" any day. That's the Peter I like before the spider bite.

    Simply because Sam Raimi felt as he lost touch to every character in Spider-Man 3 except for J. Jonah Jameson. He made a mess out of Peter Parker by having him cry with every situation, by making Mary Jane Watson a total *****, destroying all hope to make the villains like Sandman and Venom feel like real threats and plenty more.

    Really? Raimi's Peter only has a good memory? No, now that's just trying to give Raimi's Peter some excuse of why he knows these things. He's an intelligent young man that was able to keep in tide with talking to Otto Octavius even about his project because Peter is that smart.

    He didn't quit FOR MJ. He quit simply because his emotions were straining on his powers.

    And when did the GA ever say he wasn't heroic besides what you're saying right now? I've never heard of the general audience saying he isn't heroic.

    And may I remind you a powerless Peter Parker saving that little girl in that burning building :cwink:

    Can't say Peter Parker is ever a pushover when he's not inside the Spidey suit, so don't know where you're coming from with that.

    Just like Webb's Spider-Man not being funny except for one thing, huh? :woot:

    :funny:

    Now you're just sounding biased here. Lizard is more threatening than Green Goblin and Doc Ock? Oh, please.

    Connors is meant to be sympathetic, but not Lizard. Lizard is meant to be this brutal beast and we rarely see these two different personas being shown.

    None of these lines sound cheesy, especially when just reading these lines in Green Goblin's voice at midnight as I am.

    Of course Peter rarely had friends, but dressing up as he did in Webb's film...did Peter ever dress like that?

    Two different things. Nerd and outcast, and Peter has always been just a nerd. A total outcast of dressing like a bum, skateboarding, WANTING to be alone. That's not Peter, imo. He's a smart kid being forced to be alone as he's just made fun of and bullied constantly by Flash.

    Too bad TDKR didn't do that, but okay.

    And it's fine if you like Peter being confident to the woman he loves, but so did Peter once he and MJ finally started to date. So your point?

    They didn't show it simply because it doesn't do anything with the story such as if Nolan forced a situation with Batman using his detective skills.

    The fact that Nolan only gave his version of Batman only a few years, one would expect to give Bruce exceptional skills, but even from the beginning, he is taught by ninjas without having any skills from any other area. Saying it should've grown once again is an interpretation on your behalf when it should have been established first before it expanded and it was never established of Batman ever having detective skills or what have you.

    And yes, I am aware of how you feel about TDKR. You are aware of my feelings towards the movie as well, yes? Notice my sig? :grin:

    :up:

    I would tell that to everyone in your theatre, or I'd just laugh that they would get scared so easily.

    And if you were to say the idea of death was what was really scary, then I assume you had that feeling with every battle he had with Lizard since he could've died in any of those scenarios.

    The idea of wanting to "help" NYC when it's just a mindless idea that everyone seems to have a problem as Connors does is a head scratcher.

    So you should know how I feel with TAS-M. The origin part was the funnest part of the film as Webb finally got into CBM territory with having Spidey vs Lizard that was just a bore and had a very different tone after the first hour that feels like nothing like the first sixty minutes.

    TDKR in the same league as TAS-M?

    That's sad to think.

    Definitely disagree with certain parts of your list, and the bold would be my changes.
     
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  11. JOE

    JOE _________________________

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    why do you continue to fabricate tdkr as one of the all-time best comic book movies? it was a slightly above average finish (only because of the ending scene) to a great first, and amazing second movie. it pleased the fans, thats it. no expectations exceeded, just enough for it to make some money.

    tdk is the only movie where if someone says "they didn't like it" they'll get weird looks among comic book fans/batman fans.

    if someone says they didn't like tdkr (which i've heard plenty of times) it's not as big of a deal.

    so, tdkr in the same league as tdk?

    that's sad to think.:facepalm:
     
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  12. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Hey, let's look at which movie is in a top ten list for critics the past week and who's also fittingly in AFI's Top Ten which have only been given to TDK, IM and S-M 2.

    Sad to think TDKR isn't given praise by CB fans, but as expected as they're the most fickle.
     
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  13. JOE

    JOE _________________________

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    biased opinions stated as fact, i love it.
     
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  14. mayo23

    mayo23 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you know? Anno's opinions are always fact!
     
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  15. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Biased? Opinions?

    So I'm making it up with TDKR being on top ten lists?

    Don't understand your point there fella.

    Plus, let's go back to something I'd like to make mention...

    Quite frankly, TDK is the ONLY CBM that warrants a "weird look" if someone says they don't like the film, much more than in Picard's list such as Spider-Man 2, X2 and The Avengers, so wouldn't, by the logic, TDK be the ONLY CBM to be the 'best of the best' then? Yes?
     
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  16. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    I said nothing about opinion :cwink:
     
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  17. Picard Sisko

    Picard Sisko Prepare to be Assimilated

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    Why is that sad? It's my opinion!

    I don't think TDKR is really such a great movie. Its a good conclusion to the Nolan trilogy, but its full of plot holes, and rides off the success of TDK in my opinion. I'm still debating whether or not I like Batmen Begins or TDKR more.
     
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  18. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Hah, didn't say your opinion is sad. Said it's sad to think, for me personally.
     
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  19. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    It does to me. I think it's one of the greatest movies ever made and what I mean by that is that it is in my opinion in the top 10 best movies of all time, if not then definitely in the top 20 or top 15.

    Yes, that is a good representation of Peter Parker. I don't see why it's so shocking to you to begin with. A lot of nerds are outcasts especially the stereotypical nerds which you claim to love so much.

    That's fine. Your opinion. However, that is irrelevant to how good of a portrayal of Peter Parker is. It is not a good portrayal because that is not how Peter Parker was written in the comics.

    Well said :up:. Don't repeat this to me though. Repeat it to the GA. They don't care about the pre-production and personal reasons of Sony and Sam Raimi as to why the film was bad. For your average Joe that saw the movie, the movie was bad and the director screwed up big time. That's the end of the story for him/her.

    I never said he just has good memory. That is what you said, or at least implied. You told me that Tobey's Peter was a bigger nerd than Andrew's Peter because he can memorize tons of stuff and I told you that having a good memory doesn't automatically make you a nerd. This doesn't mean that Tobey's Peter is not a nerd at all; just that the argument that you provided for why he is a nerd is complete BS.

    And the movie tells us that his emotions are connected to his powers and that he was losing his powers due to depression over not being able to be with MJ. Then a while after he loses his powers and quits being Spider-Man, he adapts back to his old life and begins to enjoy his personal life again more than ever before and tries to hook up with MJ again even though the girl is already engaged and even though crime rates all over the city are rising and many people in NY City are asking him to return. Yes, he does try to become Spider-Man again and I give him credit for that but that's only after several hesitations including a moment when he doesn't even bother to call 911 when he notices a guy getting beaten to a pulp by a gang. It's only when the girl he has a crush on gets kidnapped that he fully becomes emotionally motivated again to become Spider-Man and does so successfully. All the stuff from before combined didn't seem to do that for some reason.

    I want to clarify. It's not that they say he's not heroic but that he isn't heroic enough or that he's nowhere as heroic as other superheroes. I hear some people say this. Those people usually say stuff like "Spider-Man? What can he do? He has lame powers that can only be used for helping grandmas cross the street!"

    To be fair, I don't think this applies to the Raimi films that much. I do think they could've done a lot more to show what Spider-Man is capable of but I don't think the GA's opinion on this comes from the Raimi films. Notice how when I first wrote that list of reasons the GA has to why Spider-Man sucks, I said that most of those reasons only apply to Raimi's version of Spider-Man (not all).

    Already gave him credit for that. You get no cookie. :oldrazz:

    Yes, that's true. But I do find it a bit disappointing that that burning building with the little girl trapped inside and the stuff from before combined didn't 100% motivate him to become Spider-Man again and get his powers back but the kidnapping of his self-centered crush got him to 100% in less than a minute after her kidnapping.

    He still has that wimp vibe and carries himself like a wimp. An example is the scene when all of his sheets in his binder fall on the street and every single person walking by steps on them. I get that Peter is supposed to be mistreated to an extent but that is going way way way way way way too far. Heck, even the bus driver and other nerds picked on Peter pre-spider bite in the Raimi films. Peter in the comics was never the bud of everyone's joke to that ridiculous level at any point, pre or post bite. That was just ridiculous. Also the scene where he timidly asks Jameson for a bit of a raise and Jameson just laughs in his face and then kicks him out is also going way too far with the whole "Peter is a pushover" thing. Read the early Amazing Spider-Man issue where Peter asks JJ for a raise and manages to get one or the Ultimate Spider-Man issue where Peter gets fired by JJ but still gives him a whole speech on what an unfair coward prick he is (and rightfully so). There are limits to Peter's lack of confidence as Peter Parker.

    He's funny throughout the whole movie.
     
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  20. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    He is :woot:. Seeing as how the new Spider-Man is faster and moves more like the one in the comics as opposed to Tobey's Spider-Man thus concluding that Andrew's Spider-Man is stronger than Tobey's Spider-Man who was on par with SM1's GG and knowing that Andrew's Spider-Man took a bit from the Lizard in TASM and was outmatched in many ways (and this is high school Spider-Man BTW, not the college Spider-Man of the Raimi films who is meant to be much stronger), I think it's fair to assume that the Lizard can defeat SM1's GG any day :). Plus, he got closer to taking over the city than the Green Goblin ever did. I think I'll go with the giant green Lizard monster over the guy flying around in a Power Rangers reject suit. Doc Ock is more debatable but I'll still go with the Lizard.

    And the Lizard wasn't sympathetic in the film. Connors was the sympathetic one. The Lizard was a brutal beast :up:.

    Really? Hold on.

    *waits till midnight and listens to GG's voice on YouTube*

    Nope. Still the same. Honestly, the voice is not that creepy to begin with. Dafoe was far scarier/creepier as Norman Osborn than as GG.

    Exactly like that? No. Similar to that? Yes. He even has the same haircut he had at one point in the comics.

    They're two different things but you can be both at the same time. You can be a nerd and be an outcast who doesn't fit in because you're a nerd. And Peter has been both. He was a nerd constantly bullied by the top popular kids like Flash but also an outcast ignored by everyone else in the school, which was the majority of the school. Basically, most of the school completely ignored him except for the few people that bullied him (talk about a crappy life). You saw that in TASM too.

    He's not dressed like a bum. That old vest-jacket thingy he wears throughout the film makes him look more nerdy especially when he has the glasses on. It's what a 21st century nerd that looks a bit stereotypical would wear. We've been over the skateboarding a million times (it has NOTHING to do with anything; by no means proves he's not a nerd or not an outcast) and I don't see how he wants to be alone.

    See above points. Also, I want to point out that although this is true to an extent, the irony is that they only date in SM3.

    Why not though? It's a very important part of Spider-Man. It goes back to when I said that the films are rushed and half-assed adaptations. I blame the writers for this and not Tobey. At least Nolan's Batman, though the detective stuff is not the main focus around Batman at all, is still present and you still see glimpses of Batman's intelligence throughout all three movies and yes, even including in TDKR (I'm going to admit that).

    And in return, I will show everyone in my theater this:
    See what I did there? :cwink:

    Nah. But that particular scene felt very real to me. I was really afraid for Peter that he could've drowned. It is a great scene IMO.

    It doesn't make sense to you because you are (presumably) sane. Of course that a normal mental person wouldn't want to turn everyone into a giant Lizard but for Connors who has been driven insane and unstable by the serum, it all makes sense. He believes he has achieved perfection and wants to share his gift with the world. A motivation doesn't have to make sense to us. It just has to be believable that it would make sense to the villain and has to make us the viewers believe and understand why the villain would have that motivation (in this case, we believe Connors would have that motivation due to the insanity brought for by his mutation and we understand why it makes sense to him but no one else).

    I didn't find the film less interesting after the origin. I found everything after the origin a bit more interesting instead since they finally got to the story they wanted to tell (I'm talking about SM1 right now). I like all parts of TASM equally and like how everything is connected though I do think the second act has a few pacing problems.
     
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  21. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Obviously not something to really put faith into, but you could take this into consideration....maybe, lol:

    Imo, The Big Bang Theory stereotypes nerds in a way where I find to be truer than outcasts trying to just stay and sit in a corner by themselves.

    And neither, really, is Batman in Nolan's trilogy, but I find that portrayal to be the best as Raimi's usage of Peter Parker in his films.

    Of course that's what the GA thinks, BUT...that doesn't mean the GA isn't at least aware that the characters were written far better in Spider-Man 1 and 2.

    If Peter Parker is an intelligent man to have known these things already, than that just shows how smart Peter is to know how things work, to know how things are created and used.

    But it simply wasn't for MJ that Peter quit. Hell, as you said, MJ was engaged so there was no way he thought he had a shot left, it was only MJ that decided she now wanted to be with Peter, not the other way around.

    So you're really talking about if Spidey is heroic when you bring in examples of people thinking he only helps grandmas? Lol. It was obviously a mistake he didn't help that kid who was getting beat up, but he understood his destiny even when his powers weren't working by saving that little girl from that building that was caught in flames.

    You did?

    That was never going to give Peter his powers back until something happened with Mary Jane as all of that happened because of Peter's love to Mary Jane(something, imo, that is completely ruined when MJ breaks up with Peter and nothing happens...if love did this to Peter in S-M 2, something similar should've happened in S-M 3).

    I love that contrast though. Peter Parker being this wimp, but when he's Spider-Man, he's way more different, but even after the spider bite, Peter Parker is at least more confident with the way he is such as when speaking to his friends more or his Aunt. There's a little maturation and confidence with Peter after the spider bite, but nothing compared to how he is when he's Spider-Man. That contrast is satisfying, imo.

    Not if you ask me :cwink:

    Nothing is concrete on Webb's Spider-Man being stronger; in fact, I believe I read something where Webb concentrates on his Spidey only being faster and more agile, but Raimi's Spider-Man seems far more stronger.

    But...we are talking about who's more threatening of the villains, and while you can say Lizard could beat up Green Goblin, that doesn't make him any more threatening to Spider-Man. Both of these villains had their moments of beating Spidey, but couldn't one say Lizard could beat up GG in the comics as well? That doesn't make Lizard any more threatening just because he's a giant lizard. His master plan was that of a B-rated sci-fi film that I think could've been much better and his presence wasn't scary at all.

    A brutal beast when he simply had to be with Peter and Captain Stacy. He never decided to harm just people he didn't care about, which would've made him feel like a feral beast and he never did :up:

    Highly disagree :woot:

    Exactly like that? Good, glad he never dressed exactly like a moron.

    Imo, Raimi portrayed the bold perfectly as much as you can say Webb portrayed the other way perfectly as well. We are definitely getting into opinion territory now it seems, lol.

    That doesn't speak to me as 21st century nerd. That speaks to me as a 21st century hipster.

    Well of course since the trilogy was about Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson and their 'love story'. It's not like the same pattern can be used when Gwen Stacy is meant to die in this series; Peter and Gwen had to quickly become a couple, lol.

    Why not? Why force a situation that doesn't belong in the story? One thing I hate is when something is cradled for the CB fans that has nothing relevant to the plot of the film.

    Needless to say, I couldn't trust anyone in the theatre on what they'll say if they get scared over the littlest things :grin:

    Really? I'm sure there could be the same, or even more, panic of Peter's death with Lizard squeezing Peter ontop of OsCorp Tower, imo.

    Imo, it still makes far more sense, on a thematic level, for Connors to still test his family first. What's more insane in trying to "heal" his perfectly healthy family?

    That's why his motivation is off. It feels like a bad sci-fi film with no emotional pull whatsoever.

    I enjoyed Spider-Man from the beginning to end because it all felt like it was in the same tone and atmosphere, whereas TAS-M felt like Webb directing an indie film that grew in size within a hour, and that's not how I should feel, imo. The scope should've been there from the beginning.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  22. spidermanJLA!~

    spidermanJLA!~ SUPERHERO

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    Connors' motives were very blurred imo. Ratha said," Start trials or else." And then he just decides to test it on himself.
     
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  23. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    Oh for crap sake. I wrote a whole long post replying to Anno's last post and to a specific section in the post before his last post where he wrote about Nolan's Batman not being a detective (I left that part out originally because I needed a whole post to talk just about that) but then as soon as I click Post Quick Reply, all you see is "Internet lost connection". That's really......"wonderful". Too lazy to type all that again so that will have to wait :csad:.
     
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  24. Web face

    Web face Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Lol.
     
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