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Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by bosef982, Apr 21, 2006.
I AM FED UP WITH FOX!
Down with Tom Rothman, I say!
LOL!! "Well-done" if this was a parody of the "longer-is-better" argument!!
I prefer the longer one.
Fox already ruined one potential franchise with Elektra.
Right. They could have taken that one far.
I must say, I find this over-reaction to the running time to be nothing short of appauling.
Okay, so first of all, let's all step down off of our pedastals and realize that we are fans, not film makers. Let us also realize that despite what we think we know, in the end, it is just that; what we think we know. We don't know jack **** about how the story arcs in this movie are going to play out. We don't know jack **** about how the different arcs are going to connect together. And, despite contrary belief, we have absolutley no idea how long this movie needs to be.
Now that that is out of the way, how about a little defense for the real film makers... whatever the running time of this movie, it will not be mandated by Fox. Fox did not mandate a certain edit of this film... everything filmed will be in the final release of the movie, save for I believe one 30 second scene. This film isn't being edited down to meet a certain runtime, nor is it being edited down so that Fox has a lot of bonus deleted scenes for a special edition DVD. The script was written, the story was laid out, and it was filmed. And however much film that was is how much film was needed to tell this tale.
X2 was 2.05 without credits. And what people fail to realize, is that about 15 minutes, or so of that, was only added on because of the whole Phoenix arc. If that wasn't added, the X-Men could have just left Alkali Lake after saving Xavier, headed back to the mansion, and it would have probably run around a 1.45 - 1.50 mark. That movie had a lot going on. X-Men 3 isn't the first movie of the franchise to have a lot going on.
Second of all, X-Men 3 has a luxury that X-Men didn't; the characters are already established. Save for a couple characters here or there, no time needs to be spent on development. We already know who these characters are. Would X-Men have been better if it had all those deleted scenes? In my opinion, absolutley. But that movie also had the task of introducing hardcore fans and casual movie-goers alike into this world, and to these characters. X-Men 3 does not have to do that. Our refresher course is going to be the Danger Room sequence. 2 birds with one stone; getting the audience reaquanted with these characters, on top of giving us an amazing action sequence (and adding a feature we've been wanting all along, the Danger Room).
Simon Kinberg even addressed the run time issue in regards to Fantastic 4, stating that it was ultimatley a kid's movie, therefore runtime was a factor. He stated that X-Men 3 would be cut to make the best movie.
There has been no evidence what-so-ever of studio interferance on this project. Only fanboy *****ing and moaning from people like TheVileOne saying "this is the same studio that brought us Daredevil and Fantastic 4" (2 movies that I happened to enjoy, mind you), but they forget to realize that Fox is also the same studio that brought the likes of Titanic, Cast Away, Road to Perdition, Fight Club, Independence Day, and tons of other great films. And even more relevant than examples on either side of the coin, this is the studio responsible for X-Men and X2. ***** and moan all you want about how the studio tried to "sabotage" the movies... they still shelled out the dough to make this movie, in a time when comic book movies weren't at their peak, to say the least, and followed up with a sequel. Fox set a release date about 2 years in advance for X-Men 3, so that would have been before Singer left for Superman Returns, so all the talk about a release date to beat Singer out is just utter garbage. And for something like this, waiting around isn't an option. There are a lot of actors out there, who have lives outside of 'X-Men', who can't just stop everything else in their lives because X-Men 3 is being made now. And waiting too long will kill the interest in the series. People won't care if there is a 5 year gap between movies. They'll think that it's just a desperate attempt to juice some cash off of a name.
This is nothing but over reaction over something petty. We're not the ones in the know about this story, we only assume to know. We're not the professionals being paid the big bucks to tell this story. Fanboys need to step down off their pedastel, and let the professionals do their job. Enjoy the finished product, or don't. But this over-reaction over the running time, of all things, is absurd. And now we're calling for a possible boycott from Fox if things don't go your way? Sorry, I'm not convinced.
Contrary to the arguement presented by those who have nothing better to do than to ***** and get after anyone who is the least bit optimistic, Fox is capable of making quality entertainment. In fact, I find an abundance of my TV and movie entertainment to come from Fox, in some way, shape, or form. And I will not boycott over a run time. I will not boycott the good things they do, because of something bad they may have done. And I highly doubt that X-Men 3 is going to be some crap fest of a movie because of a runtime.
Good post, Nell, I do think people are really overeacting about the runtime. I do have faith in Fox and in this movie so i'm saving all judgement until I see the film for myself. But I do agree with Bosef when he's says, We should'nt support something that's not worth the support.(not in those exact words)
Whats so bad about the 30 Second Scene that is being cut ? Anyone know what it was of ?
Excellent post. This is the kind of opinion that I have whenever I step-into the fanboy world. I love X-men as much as the next guy and no I dont want this movie to be bad...but if we start judging the movie, based on run-time, before it even comes out...there goes the experience, the excitement and the joy that is the cinema and the X universe in general.
He's not saying boycott X3 because of what you've seen thus far. He is saying that if what you see is crap, and you don't like it, then don't buy the dvd.
This is all highly debatable. Just like we know nothing about the current state of the movie's quality, we know nothing about the previous behind the scenes studio politics nor about the fate of the film if it had been developed otherwise.
Nell, I agree with your argument in so far as pre-judging the movie, but again the point of the thread is to take action afterward . . . also, as of late, I believe for the most part the fan reaction here has been quite positive. Bosef and the like are entitled to their opinions as well.
Well, I have hardly ever judged a movie by its running time, aside from King Kong - which I felt was too long but I didn't feel that detracted from its quality, it made the viewing experience in the cinema a bit of a strain but had no bearing on the quality of the film-making. I also found Narnia a bit long - at 2hrs 12 mins - but that was to do with my personal boredom level for what was very much a children's movie. I don't think Narnia was actually overlong, if you get my drift.
I found X1 a little too short - and when we know what was missed out (Storm and Cyclops origin scenes, Jean/Xavier scene in Cerebro, Storm/Cyclops scene in the train station rubble) - that backed up my observation. I found X2 to be oddly assembled - some parts seemed to lack pace and significance, while some omitted parts (Cyclops after he was captured and before he attacked Jean, Storm creating the electrical storm at the dam) would have added to the movie.
Daredevil's DC was 100 per cent better than the movie. Editing ruined the theatrical cut.
Fantastic Four and Elektra had bigger problems than editing and length. Storyline flaws. It would take much more than editing to sort those out. But better editing would help, no doubt.
I don't know what to think. I would imagine that the intricacies of the Phoenix saga and cure story (Angel, Beast) would take as much time as X2 did to tell its story.
I just don't know....
I can understand the position of being on the fence, X-Maniac, and I'd just like to say that bosef, Nell, yourself, and others have had a couple great posts in this thread.
I can see where bosef is coming from. I'll be one of the first ones to burn a Tom Rothman effigy if I find out studio editing has curtailed what could potentially be one of the greatest films of all time. However, I'm inclined to wait with moderate optimism before doing anything
This movie does have the potential to suck. It really does. If anything is going to ruin the movie, it's going to be Fox itself. While Avi Arad doesn't instill a whole lot of good-will towards the movie based on his previous track records and comments made off-camera (namely in magazines and such) where he seems to be have sold out a little rather than place the wishes of his fans (who made him rich) before the wishes of 20th Century Fox.
It's my opinion that Brett Ratner's vision of the X-Men universe will be superior to Singer's, most notably in how the direction of the film will replace Singer's broody mysteriousness with high-octane energy. Ratner shot the movie that he wanted to shoot, or else there would be some scenes left out of the film. Perhaps he wanted to do a little bit more, but come on, who wouldn't? You're putting 40 years of beloved story onto the big screen, of course he wanted to include more. If there was anything that limited what Ratner wanted to do, it was the tight schedule before the film's release. They're still finishing up the special effects, from what Simon Kinberg tells us.
In short, if Ratner made something special, the only thing that could tarnish it is the overbearing corporation that financed the movie. However, the greatest evidence we've seen that convinces me to be positive is Ratner's quote about everything making it into the final cut. Whatever the run-time will be, I'm sure that it will have an insane amount of movie crammed in.
honestly the x3 trailer looks much better than any other superhero trailer better than x1 and x2 this film looks awesome no need to keep saying things against it it's fox's biggest film this summer in a proven franchise it has a budget bigger than x1 x2 daredevil elektra and fantastic four...it has the best comic book story ever as it's main plot..etc.
i am very optomistic about this movie
You got some good points. I'm convinced. I really hope that the runtime is enough to tell the whole X3 movie. I'd be upset if it was really rushed. Scott mourns, Scott goes to Alkali Lake, Scott finds Jean, Jean knocks Scott out, ROLO find Jean, ROLO take her back to the mansion, 5-sec speech b/w Xavier and the X-Men about Jean, Jean escapes...well, you get what I mean.
I'm just saying that, there need to be some breathing room.
Nell, I can see your point as well. However, I'm speaking to a larger issue that Fox is but a part of...
It seems that there is this sort of laziness among studios. Like the tired parent who doesn't bother making good meals for their children, knowing they'll eat regardless. So they serve slop. Instead of a nice, well-cooked, four course meal, they serve their children slop and the kids eat it becasue, well, they're hungry.
For many fans, this is the same for us. Not neccessarily hunger, but obssession, fascination over these characters. We love them. For some reason, as we get older and the world around us becomes all the more full of less potential, less fantasy, less mystery, these characters remind us that the imagination in the end is the ultimate landscape. They invite us in to realize that our own minds are our greatest entertainments. In them, we see ourselves at times, our others, and perhaps in ways more subconcious, we even calculate our problems within the paradigms of morals, values, and ethics that some of our favorite comic book characters proscribe.
We entrust these archetypes, these halycon fantasies, to a group of individuals who we hope take the same passion we exhibit and hold and passes it into the work, putting first and foremost the quality and the potency of the product -- nothing more. We hope the egos, dollar signs, and rivalries are placed on the cutting room floor, instead of great character scenes, moving dialogue, and/or scene explainations.
Fox's record with comic book movies is piss-poor. Fantastic Four, Elektra, Daredevil are atrocious examples of how to take beloved icons and turn them into something so diluted it's just as similiary transparent. Isn't that what comic book movies are ultimately about? Isn't it like your child finally performing before an auidence? You want the films to do good not just for your sake, but for others as well. You want your friends, families, and others simply to understand what you love about these characters, to see in them what you see.
But then someone like Fox's comes along, and cuts the script into shreds, underfunds the film, pop-culturize what could be a "classic." But when Fantastic Four did do bad, despite their lips moving to the song of it doing well, they slapped on a misleading X3 preview for DVD sales.
They lied. There's no other way around it. The "preview" was inherently misleading and decietful. It breached the trust between customer and business. It was disgusting. Yet, it was in character for Fox.
With Fox emerging from this muck of lies, lazy-moviemaking, and bad decisions (trepidation to get Singer back and losing him; Director Musical Chairs, etc.), how can you not expect some fans to be extremely concerned when they hear that a film that is so much larger, so much more action-packed, so much more emotional and dramatic than the others of its series, is actually shorter than both films!
When it has been common consensus, from fan to filmmaker, that there are a great deal of characters, a great deal of storylines, "a larger canvas" as they say, who wouldn't be disturbed by the contradiction at hand?
Who wouldn't doubt it?
Who wouldn't question it?
Who wouldn't trust it....consider how Fox has lied to us before, has decieved us, has betrayed our trust to take characters we love and do them justice?
Movies should not be settlements. The compromises should be kept amongst the production team; the studio should not expect such comrpimses from their audiences. There are no excuses for a bad movie other than its a bad movie and the decisions creating it are inherently to blame.
X3 is the first franchise of the comic book revolution that took place recently. It has sustained itself, the character resonating throughout pop culture. For the first time, we have the opportunity to have a fully successful, well-rounded comic book trilogy. Something that has NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
But they'll have to do it in just about an hour and a half (if the 103 is including credits).
That's pathetic. That's an injustice to the characters.
So, while I'm not saying X3 will suck, I'm saying that this is extremely concerning. Extremly concerning. It does not take a genius to assess the amount of plot in this film and the amount of time it's being given to orchestrate that plot. It does not take a genius to see that those two are in conflict. While good writers, Kinberg and Penn (actually, I don't think Penn's good at all) are not miracle workesr who with a single movie are going to redefine how much you can pack into that little piece of space.
Knowing what I know of screenwriting, this does not add up. I for one, if this film has one loophole, one contrivance, one "where'd that come from" moment, will have no hate lost in my expressions towards Ratner and Fox.
They were basically handed the recipe with the ingredints pre-mixed, the pans all ready, and the oven set. All they had to do was put it in and let it cook long enough, despite their own hungers for money. Apparently, that wasn't enough. And again, fans will be expected -- how sad are we? -- to gobble up the pathetic undercooked slop they heap onto our plates. Then, later, we'll take the recipe as we but the DVD, thereby showing them that you can piss on us, disregard us, and we'll start coming back for it.
This is overreactionary, this is just someone who's tired of being a fan and watching their properties be undermined while those who are doing it just say, "Oh, don't worry" or as Avid Arad said, "Idiots."
Just like I said, Eidoes recently ripped Lara Croft fans off by releasing Tomb Raider Legend, which was ridiculously short and easy compared to Tomb Raider's past. They hyped it as a game that will challenge "the most seasoned player." The most seasoned players are laughing at it right now. The response: "We take it as a good sign that people want more."
This is the equivalent of starving your child, feeding him a little bit, and then when he begs for more, or *****es about not having enough, saying, "Oh, well, it's good that you want more.?
Studio politics and developer fraud is becoming rampant. That's what the Fantastic Four DVD was, that's what all the things we've been told about this film (Avi Arad: "we're prepared" versus Ratner's "I'll never work on an unprepared movie again").
Tell me, where has Fox earned my trust? Hm? Tell from where do I get the benefit of the doubt?
I want X3 to be amazing. I can't wait to see it. I'm having a huge party with friends and family for the midngith showing. Now, sitting here, I'm just hoping that I don't have to walk out of the movie theatre disavowing my allegience to the X-Men movies.
We are ultimately the people who can decide what these movies do. If F4 would've bombed more in sales, Fox would've learned a lesson.
Instead, it is us, again, learning the lesson.
wow that was long... all i can say is that... DONT BUY PIRATED CD'S!!!
As posted before ima buy the dvd regardless whether i enjoy it or not, i just like to complete my collection. I was dissappointed with blade trinity but i bought it just to complete the trillogy.
I am concerned about x3 only for fact that most films suck wen it comes to third picture but from the trailers and whats been speculated to be in the film it sounds like this one might be the exception to that.
I don't think there is anything wrong for a consumer to demand a quality product. If it turns out that FOX short-changed its consumers, then it's either you do something or nothing about it. It's your money, it's your decision.
While I command your effort in taking the time in writing up your thoughts, I really hate these essay style posts. You could have said what you needed in a tenth of the word count.
TBH, even if it does suck a$$ [which I dont think it will], I will still buy the DVD because at the end of the day, I am an X-Men fan. I will buy the DVD no matter what.
On the other hand...It seems we have to take a stand against FOX. So, in summary...
I'm actually thinking that Bryan was right to get out. He doesn't have to deal with these idiots again
They filmed 30 Seconds of her Breast They must have been trying to come up with some new Breast Power & funny they can show Angel, & Logan will more then likely somewhere down the line be Shirt Less but Studios are afraid of showing Women Skin
Buying the DVD if you end up not liking the Movie is not taking a stand. Thats called doing what FOX wants to do & in the end FOX wins & the fans will continue to get screwed
I want to complete the trilogy. Even if it does suck, there will be some nice moments in there