Spider-Man: Pre-Brand New Day or Post-Brand New Day?

[Artistsean]

I was reading the Spider-Man: Brand New Day trades, and in the back of volume 1 they talk about all the problems the Spider-Man comics have had for the past 10 years or so, and it got me thinking,
Since enough time has passed, we have seen what Spider-Man was like before Brand New Day and we have seen a good amount of what Spider-Man is like after Brand New Day.
What do you guys think? Do you like Spider-man comics better now? Do you still expect him to remember everything and him and MJ to get back together eventually? Did you like him before? Married, MJ and Aunt May knowing he is Spider-Man?
Which do you like better? And what parts do you like or not like from either? If you could merge them, would you keep Aunt May knowing but keep Peter single? Any combination of the two, pre and post BND?

 

[bored]

See, I think the overall quality has improved since BND began, but I don't credit BND itself for that, just the consolidation of titles and generally a better group of writers. The whole OMD/BND premise itself was kind of offensive, though I can see who they'd think they painted themselves into a corner leading up to that.

 

[Artistsean]

Yeah, I have been reading Brand New Day, volumes 1 and 3, and Kraven's First Hunt, and New Ways to Die, (all after Brand New Day) and even though I like it I keep thinking "OK, so when are they going to bring MJ back?" When will he and her get back together? Will he ever remember? What will happen to Iron Man once Peter remembers?

Would Spider-Man had been just as good if Peter and MJ were still together, but they still did the whole relaunch thing? Consolidating the titles and getting great writers and artists working together, and maybe wiped his identity from the mind of everyone but MJ and Peter?
So Aunt May, Jameson, all the heroes and villains, Osborne, everyone forgot who he was and still brought back harry? Would that had been just as good?

 

[venom892]

Although I stress i haven't read any of the books since OMD but even besides the marriage thing there are some developments I really don't like.

-Harry coming back
-I thought Aunt May knowing his identity was a great step forward and the realtionship was stronger.
-What they did with The Lizard lately was really bad
-Norman and Eddie not knowing his identity wasn't something I liked
-If Kraven has come back not something I happy with either
-I liked Peter as a teacher

Granted there were things I didn't like pre BND.But the whole Mephisto thing just turned me off way too much.

 

[runawayboulder]

If we're talking about quality of the comics....I'd go with BND crazily enough. I in no way approve of how BND came about whatsoever, but I can't deny the fact that Slott, Van Lente, Kelly, Waid, Martin, Pulido, ect have hit it out of the park more than once.

Before BND, JMS started on fire but editorial interference made the end of his run almost unreadable. Before that I wasn't too thrilled with SM comics in the early 2000's and late 90's.

I grew up on 80's black costume, Hobgoblin and Kraven's Last Hunt then read into McFarlane/Larsen into the debacle that was Carnage/Clone Saga. It took until BND for Marvel to realize again that ASM should have a consistently incredible creative staff not just because it's Spidey's flagship book.....it's one of Marvel's flagship books.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Pre-Brand New Day, at least before then they were attempting new stories, these stories are just old stories with one element or another changed to not looke completely rehashed.

 

[Dan_Slott]

Pre-Brand New Day, at least before then they were attempting new stories, these stories are just old stories with one element or another changed to not looke completely rehashed.

This's one of the biggest BS arguments/talking-points I've seen posters make about BND. Especially people who haven't read most of it.

1. It's an argument that anyone-- if they were motivated strongly enough-- could make about ANY story in the history of man from boy-meets-girl onward. Show me 1 issue of ANY Top 20 comic where-- if pushed-- you COULDN'T make that argument.

And 2. Tell me where we've seen these elements before:
J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City.
A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
The Daily Bugle leveled to the ground.
Aunt May turned evil.
Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
Harry on the ropes financially.
Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
I could do this all-night. There is TONS of new stuff going on in BND.

It makes me wonder, do you run around to Avengers boards and say: What? Kang? AGAIN?!
Or Daredevil boards to say: Daredevil with ninjas? Real original, guys!
Or Fantastic Four boards to say: Again with the trips to outer space?!

C'mon.

 

[Franklin Richards]

You know, Dan. I feel sorry for you guys because when this storyline began I thought of one thing.

"Wow. Mephisto is going to get his butt kicked eventually."


But that's the end of the storyline. A journey we all have to take. And like most good comics or sitcoms, eventually the status quo must ultimately come back. But usually the journey is a roller coaster. And like any good storyteller you really can't tell people that. It's like a magician giving away his tricks.


Spidey must be tortured. That's how it works. His life will always become a wreck. Until he reaches that one little oasis for a bit in his storyline and then it all starts over again. Now this time his history has been erased bit by bit. Mephisto being the ultimate expression of this attack. And yet the fans seem to forget that he's an actual bad guy that can be defeated. They seem to think that this is permanent or something. That this choice will remain the status quo forever.

Well I've seen past the magic trick. I know that eventually it all boils down to Spidey VS Mephisto. The Devil may be winning the battles but Spidey will win the war. He always does.


And maybe if he's lucky, Franklin Richards will be beside him when it all goes down.

 

[runawayboulder]

And 2. Tell me where we've seen these elements before:
J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City.
A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
The Daily Bugle leveled to the ground.
Aunt May turned evil.
Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
Harry on the ropes financially.
Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
I could do this all-night. There is TONS of new stuff going on in BND.

The Daily Bugle was destroyed at the end of The Final Chapter before Byrne relaunched ASM.

But the rest you're absolutely right about and I agree it's a weak argument.

 

[KangConquers]

This's one of the biggest BS arguments/talking-points I've seen posters make about BND. Especially people who haven't read most of it.

1. It's an argument that anyone-- if they were motivated strongly enough-- could make about ANY story in the history of man from boy-meets-girl onward. Show me 1 issue of ANY Top 20 comic where-- if pushed-- you COULDN'T make that argument.

And 2. Tell me where we've seen these elements before:
J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City.
A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
The Daily Bugle leveled to the ground.
Aunt May turned evil.
Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
Harry on the ropes financially.
Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
I could do this all-night. There is TONS of new stuff going on in BND.

It makes me wonder, do you run around to Avengers boards and say: What? Kang? AGAIN?!
Or Daredevil boards to say: Daredevil with ninjas? Real original, guys!
Or Fantastic Four boards to say: Again with the trips to outer space?!

C'mon.

Many of those are terrible terrible changes. Aunt May turning evil for example; just because something changes in a major way doesn't mean it's good. Brand New Day retconned major deaths, and major changes that were good, and added major changes that weren't.

Harry should still be dead. Period. There was no reason to bring him back. Like so much of Brand New Day, one of my favorite Spider-man tales ever was sullied by this horrible retcon.

Things that were great that Brand New Day Killed:

01. Aunt May knowing Peter is spider-man. That was one of my favorite developments of the past 10 years.
02. Death of Harry Osborn- Harry had a fantastic death, and it was one of my favorite spidey stories...why the hell should they do away with that.
03. The marriage- The fact that marvel can't write a married Peter Parker shows an overwhelming lack of imagination, and complete cowardice. If you want to write NEW Spider-man stories, give Peter a baby, and a job where he's not a bozo anymore.

Instead of moving forward you at marvel decided Peter Pan Parker was the best way to go about things. I know you were basically roped into this, that Quesada is your boss, and what he says goes, but I can't imagine you'd ever think as a writer that a horrible deus ex machina with Mephisto was intelligent writing; it was a cheap out.

The truth is Dan, it's not just kids that know Peter for having MJ. I'm in my mid-late 20s, and that's the Spider-Man I grew up on. Pretty much anyone under 30 grew up on a married Spider-man...I really don't see the point of ****ting all over those long term fans.

 

[kguillou]

I'll just say this, cause i really dont wanna get into this whole argument again, but i think Marvel was misguided in their thinking that people only liked Spider-man because he was a young, immature loser. Like KangConquers said, many, many people jumped onboard to spider-man, including myself after the high school/college years where he was married and whatnot. I fell in love with the grown up version of spiderman from the 90's and i know a lot of people who did the same. What marvel doesn't get is, the reason why people relate to Peter Parker so much wasn't because he was broke, or single, or a loser, it was his personality. Peter parker is probably the most down-to earth comic character in existence, he's kind, witty, doesn't act like he's better than anyone else and he'd give the shirt off his back for anyone. Most of all, he is arguably the greatest hero of the MU. Spidey has fought and beaten nearly every hero (maybe except Thor) and villain the MU has to offer. He's sort of the unofficial champion in the MU. In recent years, alot of writers portray him as the wise-cracking chump who contributes little-to nothing on the New Avengers. What happened to badass spidey?

Sure the whole "down-on his luck" aspect is definitely a significant part of his personality, but after a while it just gets redundant. Marvel's hellbent on recreating the magic of the 60's but it just isnt there anymore, times have changed and so has Spider-man. He's older, wiser, and more experienced than ever. Hell, he should be leading the New Avengers, but thats another topic all together. I've been over the whole marriage thing but I just wish that "more mature" aspect of spidey was portrayed more in the books.

 

[SpideyInATree]

How about an option that states "I liked them before AND after?".

Not everything is so black and white.

The only thing I have enjoyed is that they cut out the "other" Spider-Man titles and there is only The Amazing Spider-Man to read.

However, I miss having one solid creative team on the title. It is a little annoying when I'm reading Dan Slott's written Spider-Man for a month and then it would go to Fred Van Lente. I'm not knocking Fred Van Lente but you CAN very much tell the differences in the writing styles. While the same spirit is there everybody has quirks in their writing that you can tell differences.

I really liked JMS' run on Spider-Man. Minus Sins Past, The Other, and One More Day it was a very solid run. He worked with John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato Jr., and Ron Garney...all, in my opinion, very accomplished artists.

When Brand New Day started I got Dan Slott writing Amazing Spider-Man, which I had been demanding since reading the Spider-Man/Human Torch miniseries.

So, honestly, the books were fine "before" and they are just fine "after".

Also, I got a bonus of having a single Spider-Man which I had been wanting to see since becoming a hardcore Spidey fan back in 1993.

Another thing that hasn't changed are the dozens and dozens of jaded Spider-Man fans that are always "dropping the book".

 

[Themanofbat]

I personally like the new direction... having read the entire 20 years of marriage plus the previous 13 years of single Spider-Man... sure, there are things about it that have been lame, but you can say that about any comic during any era... it's not always good, but for the most part, post OMD has been exciting... at least it has been to me, and at the end of the day, that's all that counts... the fact that I'm digging Spider-Man moreso now than the previous 20 years, with a few exceptions aside...

And that's just MY two cents...

 

[Alastor]

I can't really vote. I have enjoyed most of post-BND Spidey, but I also enjoyed some of pre-BND as well. Its not really a black and white issue for me.

 

[Happenstance]

Despite being firmly against BND id like to think I gave it a fair try and I did actually enjoy 2 arcs. New Ways to Die and American Son. Overall though its not keeping me hooked like it used to, I drift in and out way too often and a lot of the recent art, while good for other books has really put me off reading ASM.

 

[KangConquers]

I'll just say this, cause i really dont wanna get into this whole argument again, but i think Marvel was misguided in their thinking that people only liked Spider-man because he was a young, immature loser. Like KangConquers said, many, many people jumped onboard to spider-man, including myself after the high school/college years where he was married and whatnot. I fell in love with the grown up version of spiderman from the 90's and i know a lot of people who did the same. What marvel doesn't get is, the reason why people relate to Peter Parker so much wasn't because he was broke, or single, or a loser, it was his personality. Peter parker is probably the most down-to earth comic character in existence, he's kind, witty, doesn't act like he's better than anyone else and he'd give the shirt off his back for anyone. Most of all, he is arguably the greatest hero of the MU. Spidey has fought and beaten nearly every hero (maybe except Thor) and villain the MU has to offer. He's sort of the unofficial champion in the MU. In recent years, alot of writers portray him as the wise-cracking chump who contributes little-to nothing on the New Avengers. What happened to badass spidey?

Sure the whole "down-on his luck" aspect is definitely a significant part of his personality, but after a while it just gets redundant. Marvel's hellbent on recreating the magic of the 60's but it just isnt there anymore, times have changed and so has Spider-man. He's older, wiser, and more experienced than ever. Hell, he should be leading the New Avengers, but thats another topic all together. I've been over the whole marriage thing but I just wish that "more mature" aspect of spidey was portrayed more in the books.

Exactly...they single handedly undid the last 30 years of growing up he'd done....striking everything post 1975 from existence. That's such a horrible thing to do. It's not just MJ; Peter acts like he's 21 again, when he should be acting more like (and should be about) 30 by now.

 

[Themanofbat]

That's a subjective opinion...in my opinion....

 

[Spider-Vader]

Before BND most Spidey stuff sucked in the past decade (besides the JMS stuff, he's god). Afterwards it improved, but only because they got good writers like Joe Kelly & Dan Slott on. Those two guys should be waaaaaaaaay bigger than they are right now.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I've been really liking the the stories from the BND-era of Spider-Man but I will admit that I think that Marvel should have found a middle ground with this.

I like a lot of the changes that Dan brings up. Sorry Kang, but I flat out disagree with you on this. J. Jonah Jameson is an awesome mayor. It's great to see Aunt May remarried. Curt Connors being the Lizard full time was done well. No more Daily Bugle and photojournalist Peter Parker makes sense (considering how the Internet has made those professions obsolete).

However, I do think that Kang brings up some valid points as well. Harry Osborn should still be dead IMO. The marriage should have remained in continuity. And I would go beyond saying that Aunt May should know who Peter really is but I still think that he should have a public identity like every other superhero in the MU what a freaking cop-out.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Before BND most Spidey stuff sucked in the past decade (besides the JMS stuff, he's god). Afterwards it improved, but only because they got good writers like Joe Kelly & Dan Slott on. Those two guys should be waaaaaaaaay bigger than they are right now.

Uh, JMS was on the title for 8 years of said decade...

 

[SpideyInATree]

Uh, JMS was on the title for 8 years of said decade...

I'm glad someone else was as confused by that statement as I was. I was like, "Wha? JMS wrote practically the whole decade."

 

[kguillou]

I still get goosebumps whenever i read that first "Coming Home" morlun story arc. JMS 100% NAILED Spider-man's voice and characterization. His inner monologue during his battle with Morlun was some of the best stuff i've ever read from Spider-man. He captured Spidey's sense of dread and doom, yet also the unyielding perseverance that Spidey is known for. No matter how strong this guy was spidey wouldnt give up. Thats the kind of stuff i wish i saw in the books nowadays.

 

[Dan_Slott]

He captured Spidey's sense of dread and doom, yet also the unyielding perseverance that Spidey is known for. No matter how strong this guy was spidey wouldnt give up. Thats the kind of stuff i wish i saw in the books nowadays.

If you missed some issues of BND, I'd recommend these arcs: SOMETIMES IT SNOWS IN APRIL, NEW WAYS TO DIE, FAMILY TIES, and AMERICAN SON. Those are just some of the BND stories where Spidey has to face unbelievable odds, but perseveres because he displays those exact qualities that you like in the character.

I'd also recommend Marc Guggenhien's done-in-one Flash Thompson story, FLASHBACKS, where Flash is inspired into acts of heroism because he's learned those qualities from his greatest hero, Spider-Man.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Easily, after BND. Currently, Grim Hunt is one of the best Spidey stories I have read. I wasn't crazy with the whole Gauntlet stuff...but, this is as good as I've read from a Spidey comic. I hope the rest is as good as the first two issues.

 

[Dan_Slott]

Many of those are terrible terrible changes. Aunt May turning evil for example...

As anyone who is following the book regularly knows, the Aunt May change was temporary. I cited it to refute an earlier post that the book was only doing "rehashes"-- which it's clearly not.
And even though the Aunt May change only lasted a few arcs, it did advance the story, and readers will be seeing a repercussion from it later in the year.

Brand New Day retconned major deaths...

1. OMD was the story that changed the status quo. BND stories were by a different editorial and creative team.
2. "Deaths"? Plural? The only death that was undone was Harry's.

Harry should still be dead. Period. There was no reason to bring him back.

Characters that are off the canvas can't tell new stories, characters that are on the canvas can. I would've said the same thing about Norman Osborn's "death". But since he's been back he's been part of some great stories. Same thing for Aunt May. One of the JMS stories that you say you liked couldn't have happened if she'd stayed dead.
And going by the positive reaction and tons of fan mail we've gotten on Joe Kelly's AMERICAN SON arc, there'd be a lot of fans who'd disagree with you and think that there was plenty of reasons to bring Harry back.

Like so much of Brand New Day, one of my favorite Spider-man tales ever was sullied by this horrible retcon.
Things that were great that Brand New Day Killed...

1. OMD was the story that changed the status quo. BND were the stories that came after.
2. When you start to say things like how a story was "sullied" or how things were "killed" it gets a little silly. Who the hell says "sullied" anymore? What? Were you fanning yourself on the veranda of your Southern plantation, perusing the latest Spider-Man periodical while sipping on a mint julep? "Lord have mercy! They have done brought back Harold T. Osborn! Why I never! They have SULLIED the good name a' Marvel Comics! I shant stand for it, y'hear?! Fetch me my pearl-handled pistols! We shall duel at the setting of the sun!"

Aunt May knowing Peter is spider-man. That was one of my favorite developments of the past 10 years.

1. Shouldn't Aunt May have stayed "dead" after ASM #400? Doesn't that break your rule?
2. Those stories still exist and they still happened.
3. Even before the unmasking, too many people knew Pete was Spider-Man in his supporting cast. And during the years before BND, Pete's supporting cast had kinda shrunk down to MJ and Aunt May. It got to the point where Pete didn't have a civilian life and relate to people as JUST Pete.

Death of Harry Osborn- Harry had a fantastic death, and it was one of my favorite spidey stories...why the hell should they do away with that.

That story is still there and it still happened.

The marriage- The fact that marvel can't write a married Peter Parker shows an overwhelming lack of imagination, and complete cowardice.

Marvel CAN write married stories about a married Peter Parker. A lot of the current Spidey team has. They're choosing to tell new stories about a single Peter Parker. And despite the insult of cowardice that you'd like to throw out there, I think that it's obvious from your ire, that the exact opposite is true-- that Marvel knew it was taking a huge RISK by taking the marriage out-- but that it was a necessary thing to do for the long term health of the franchise.