Spidey never actually defeated Ock once

Discussion in 'Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3' started by Kevin Roegele, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. Kevin Roegele

    Kevin Roegele Do you mind if I don't?

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    Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

    During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

    It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."
     
  2. SpideyLad

    SpideyLad Turning It Up To Eleven

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    That sucks......
     
  3. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    The biggest sin of all in that movie.

    Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.

    LOL!

    Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

    Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:
     
  4. Kevin Roegele

    Kevin Roegele Do you mind if I don't?

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    In real life, 'violence is not the answer' is an admirable opinion. In movies, especially action movies, especially movies based on characters who have been solving problems with violence for over forty years, yes, violence does solve problems.
     
  5. TheSlag

    TheSlag Registered

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    The bigger crime/sin was Ock not biatch-slapping Spidey in their first encounter. :down
     
  6. Kipobe

    Kipobe Registered

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    He beat Ock with his words.

    Haha.
     
  7. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Registered

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    Yeah and what did that solve? It just made him even more distant with his best friend causing Harry to hate his alter-ego and pledge to get revenge. It racked him with guilt and caused him to isolate himself from his loved ones.

    So no, it didn't solve anything.

    I don't see what's wrong with Raimi expressing this opinion, I don't see how it hurt the movies.

    Spider-man did defeat Doctor Octopus. He defeated him by making peace and acceptance with himself. By doing this, Doctor Octopus was no longer a threat.

    If violence and ACTION is all you guys care about, I'd say having the tentacles stab the electric wires and zapping him was a pretty sound defeat.
     
  8. TheSlag

    TheSlag Registered

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    :rolleyes: It's sad that you really don't have a clue on this one do you VileOne.

    Perhaps in the next one, Harry can forgive Peter, and Sandy and Spidey can go to counseling to learn to talk out their differences.
     
  9. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    That's what's SUPPOSED to happen.

    You ever hear of a famous story where Harry becomes GG2?? It's in these things called Spider-Man comics.You should really read a few some time.You might understand why some people don't like Raimi's "artistic" changes.

    Violence is the only way Spider-Man can defeat most of his major enemies.Not giving them speeches about being selfless and decent :rolleyes:

    And this is why you are absolutely clueless of practically all things Spider-Man IMO. Raimi's opinions have made a mess of several very important Spidey elements.

    And here is a great example of it :D

    Ock making peace and acceptance with himself??? That's how Doctor Octopus should be defeated?? Get a CLUE!!! :rolleyes:

    It's not.

    We also care about a faithful portrayl of the characters.Which for the most part,we're not getting.You gave a shining example of it above.
     
  10. The Bruce

    The Bruce The First and Best

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    I have to agree with Doc Ock on this one...But I have to add that the Spider-man movies STILL IMO are the best comic book movies ever....The action sceenes are amazing.
     
  11. Darth Wolverine

    Darth Wolverine The Dark Squire no longer

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    I kinda agree with Doc Ock, but there is one point I don't think anyone seems to understand:
    Ock didn't make peace and acceptance with himself...Spidey helped him to overcome the influence and manipulation of the mechanical arms. And I thought this was much more effective than a fight scene which resulted in his death; we had that in the first movie.
     
  12. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Registered

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    I do read them. Some people = a few people on SHH.

    And guess what happens when Harry Osborn becomes the second Green Goblin in the comics? They HATE each other. They fight each other a lot. And what did it solve? NOTHING! They fought and fought and fought and it never solved anything! Though at the end, when Peter was dying and his life was threatened and Harry could've just let him die and finally get his revenge, Harry saved Peter's life before dying himself.

    If this happened in the movies, you guys would just start a thread about how Peter never beats the Goblin in the movies and how at the end, The Goblin saves him.

    :rolleyes: . And did he not use it to temporarily incapacitate Doctor Octopus at one point? He couldn't stop the machine and needed his help, they could've kept fighting maybe, but then New York would've been destroyed, and I guess you would've been happier with that.

    You sound like a broken record.

    I didn't say Doctor Octopus, but Peter Parker/Spider-man.

    And it worked, so yeah I think I have a clue.

    I don't think you give a jack about faithful portrayals, you just care about your portrayal.

    Guys like Herr Logan and TheSlag are trauamatized that Ock never pimp slapped Spider-man...SO UNFAITHFUL!
     
  13. TheSlag

    TheSlag Registered

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    Traumatized? Hardly. Just another example of where Raimi is missing the boat. Now... guys like you who claim to be Spider-Man fans and have no clue.... Now there, you got something.
     
  14. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Registered

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    Actually it would be YOU got something TheSlag, since I never brought it up.

    But...

    if I don't have a clue then ignorance is bliss
     
  15. TheSlag

    TheSlag Registered

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    Then you should be like a pig in Pig-Slop Heaven. :p

    TheVileOne Presents SM2 (scenes from the classic)

    Spidey vs. the infamous Doc Ock Final Battle(?) Royale:

    Spidey: I say Guvenor... Care for a Spot'O'Tea?
    Guvenor(Ock): Why Dear Chap... throw in some Poetry Reading and I'm sooo there...
    Spidey: But Guv.. what about your project?
    Guv: Project... Smojrect... Throw in some crumpets and I'll fix you Breakfast in the morning too...
    Spidey: Ooooo Behavvveeee...

    :D
     
  16. Darth Wolverine

    Darth Wolverine The Dark Squire no longer

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    Will you guys stop arguing and just agree to disagree?
     
  17. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    It doesn't show.Either that or you have no appreciation for the real characters.

    Exactly.And it made for one of the finest Spider-Man stories ever.Dramatic and tragic.Here's a newsflash for you.Villains like GG1,Ock,Electro etc don't think "Oh violence never solves anything".They're bad guys.Crazy,evil people.Usually like to flaunt their power thru violence.

    But Raimi will probably have Harry talked down by a recycled Aunt May speech too :rolleyes:

    Again,like I said it makes for a fantastic story.Only difference is that if Raimi makes Harry save the day,it will be rehash of Ock in SM-2.

    Ock saving the city.Jesus Christ :rolleyes:

    I doubt it.Because if that did happen,it would be faithful to the comics.

    And Doctor Octopus,the REAL Doctor Octopus would not give it.Not in a million years.Sacrifice himself and let Spider-Man go???

    Yeah that's real Doc Ock :rolleyes:

    Oh yeah that would rock :rolleyes:

    Well you sound like a clueless kid.So cest la vie :)

    It worked as a cheap way to save New York,when it should have been Spider-Man stopping the reactor and defeating Ock.

    So you have no clue.

    My portrayl is a faithful portrayl.Name one thing I've said that is not true to the characters in the comics.

    You're the one constantly defending Raimi and his tasteless changes.

    Traumatized?? Hardly.

    Disappointed and possibly annoyed?? Definitely.
     
  18. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Who says Ock has to die??? I would love to have seen him imprisoned in a steel cell at the end,with his tentacles locked to the wall,like in the 90's animated series.

    Spider-Man does not kill.He didn't kill the Green Goblin.

    Frankly I'd rather have Ock go down as a villain like GG1 did,rather than as an A.I. controlled hero :down

    Don't make well established and loved characters something they're not.If it ain't broken don't try and 'fix' it.
     
  19. Darth Wolverine

    Darth Wolverine The Dark Squire no longer

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    You all seemed to ignore my previous post, so I'll quote it now.

     
  20. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Registered

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    Of course I don't. Because these are real flesh and blood characters that have never evolved or changed at all, no sir. These characters are REAL, the Spider-man comics are just history books documenting REAL events in our history.

    Well because they are villains. Why should the director agree with a villains' point of view? Aren't the villains supposed to be wrong?

    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but I don't see what the violence of super villains' ever solves other than satisfying their own twisted minds.

    No matter what happens in the movie, you will find something to nitpick or whine about. He never talked down Norman in the first movie.

    Its still a fantastic story, and it enforces the CLUELESS theme you hate so much that violence doesn't solve anything.

    And what's wrong with this? He took responsibility for his actions and stopped being selfish for once. You are just going to respond and talk about THE REAL DOC OCK! THE REAL CHARACTERS, FAITHFULNESS!

    I thought it made for a fantastic story that he destroyed his dream and creation seeing the damage it was causing.

    I don't think its much different than seeing the COMICS Doctor Octopus saving innocent civilians from a collapsing building.

    Nope if it did happen you'd complain that oh RAIMI IS CLUELESS! SPIDER-MAN 2 REHASH! VIOLENCE SOLVES EVERYTHING!

    Fine we'll call movie Doctor Octopus FAKE Doctor Octopus. The FAKE Doctor Octopus you brandish in your avatar and have claimed was one of the best parts about the movie.

    Are you happy now?

    I'm making it official, from now on we shall refer to movie Doctor Octopus as FAKE Doctor Octopus.

    I guess that makes Raimi a clueless adult, and the millions of people that loved the Spider-man movies clueless as well.

    He did defeat Doctor Octopus. And so they did something a little different than what you expected or wanted. What's the big deal?

    It seems the only person that gets to have a clue is you. You're like Akito from Fruits Basket.

    I don't see why movies have to be so slavishly faithful PORTRAYALS of the comics. I'm clueless though because I still the movies as being faithful to the comics and their characters. All you see is just one giant nitpick and complaint after another.

    The ONLY, only people I ever see making TASTELESS changes to Spider-man are the idiot comic book writers. Guys like Stracynski with stories like Sins Past or the latest crap that's called THE OTHER. The clone saga, it goes on and on.

    I'd call Raimi's changes tasteful in comparison, but I'm clueless so don't even respond.

    With the posts you make, it really seems like its gone beyond disappointed and annoyed for you. My best suggestion would just be to stay away from the movies and just watch reruns of the cartoons and read the comics from now on.
     
  21. Happenstance

    Happenstance Registered

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    I dont mind bad guys being beaten with words at all but only certain ones that should be able to be redeamed. Yeah movie Ock could be redeamed but I dont think he should have been written that way.
     
  22. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Don't be ridiculous.

    If we can't discuss our opinions then what's the point in coming here??

    I know and I'm sure Vileone knows we're not going to change eachother's minds.We're not even trying to.

    The art of debate is something I enjoy.If we all agreed on everything,life would be boring here.

    The movie characters are real but the comic characters are not??

    What?? You find the characters of the movie more real?? A Peter Parker who hasn't gotten any more confident in the two years of being a superhero,and stays a shy love sick puppy.That's more real to you??

    Or a man controlled by robotic arms is more real,as opposed to a sociopathic,arrogant,power hungry scientist who is given a great power and lashes out at the world with it.

    Mmmmkay whatever floats your boat.

    Because Norman's character was written faithfully.He was an actual bad guy


    It's a mediocre story.

    All about the girl again,Peter loses his powers because MJ has found yet another guy,and Peter's supposed idol Otto Octavius,whom Peter doesn't try and help until the last minute,is controlled by his own invention.

    And as I said,with villains like GG and Ock,violence is the only way to stop them.These guys cannot be reasoned with.


    Raimi is very clueless about alot of important Spidey elements.

    I like the Spider-Man movies too,as I have said to you several times before.It's when people like yourself step in and claim them to be faithful to the source material,then I start the criticisms.Of which there are many.

    You can love a movie without it being faithful or even a brilliant movie.I've seen people praise the hell out of the FF movie and Elektra.Much like you're doing with SM-2.

    No he didn't defeat him.Ock had Spidey by the throat,and Peter pleaded to Otto's good nature to do the right thing by regurgitating Aunt May's corny speech.

    Otto overcame the tentacles.Not Spider-Man.Otto destroyed the reactor.Not Spider-Man.That is not a defeat.

    The big deal is,every single time,Spider-Man and Doc Ock face off,it ends with Spider-Man physically defeating Ock,or Ock escaping.

    Doctor Octopus is bad.A villain.With little to no morals.He has no problem killing innocents,threatening millions of lives.He does not work for the good of mankind.And he needs no A.I. to influence his decisions.

    Well I always liked Slag's name of Doc Ock lite.

    But Fake Doctor Octopus is good too :up:

    And he was the best part,not one of the best,the best part of the movie.I loved Alfred Molina's performance as Ock.When he was being bad he rocked.Visually stunning,and the action scenes are the best ever.No comic book movie has topped them.

    Movie Ock left some big shoes to fill in SM-3.And I'll miss him not being in it.I loved Molina as Ock and I proudly brandish him in my avatar.

    I just don't like how he was written in some parts.Namely the poetry loving goody guy,being controlled by the tentacles,and redempting at the end.That's not Otto Octavius.

    Oh you mean the story written by JMS??? The guy you just blasted below for making tasteless changes to Spider-Man?? ;)


    You're too kind.But I can't take all the praise.People like Herr Logan,Slag,Symbiotica,Vile,Saph,The Green Goblin,Daisy etc.

    They all have a clue too :)

    Nobody,least of all me,has asked for 100% faithfulness.Word for word,panel by panel recreations of the comics.

    All I ask is that they portray the characters faithfully.And we're not getting that with several of the major characters.

    It's not much to ask for.To write the characters faithfully.They're not difficult characters to do on screen.All the material is there.Use it.

    Oh yes I agree.The comics are a MESS right now.

    Like you mentioned above with that stupid thing JMS did with Ock.That's JMS for you :)

    Why?? Because we passionately defend the character of Spider-Man and other classic characters,like you passionately defend Raimi's version of the characters??

    I have no intention to stay away from the movies.I like them alot,but they are very flawed.

    So I shall continue to watch them,read the comics,watch the cartoons and give my opinions every time :)
     
  23. Darth Wolverine

    Darth Wolverine The Dark Squire no longer

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    True, but couldn't it work this way as well:
    If everything was the same, watching the Spider-Man movies would be boring.
    We had plenty of cool action in that movie, and you think it's flawed because Spidey manage to talk to him and relate to him enough to free him of the arms' influence instead of beating him senseless?
     
  24. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

    Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

    If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

    Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

    Ridiculous.

    That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.
     
  25. Darth Wolverine

    Darth Wolverine The Dark Squire no longer

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    I see your point...but if every single TV series, comic, film etc showed Doc Ock as the same, stereotypical evil guy with four mechanical arms, he'd be pretty boring. It's the personality that makes a character...and a personality has got to have depth, and be layered. Although some people mess perfectly good characters, saying that they are developing them, each writer shows different portrayals of that character, and each version adds something to the character, no matter how stupid it appears to some people.
     

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