Days of Future Past SPOILERS - Darwin - SPOILERS

[Nokio]

Bishop isn't dead but he is evil now.

I would'nt say he's evil. He had lived in a forced concentration camp because of the Mutant girl Hope. He wanted to prevent what atrocity she is supposed to commit. At anyrate I thought he had died. I didn't follow that Cable and Hope future story crap. I just don't like the character of Cable. At any rate i thought he had been eventually killed in that storyline.

 

[SentinelMind]

That's my thing with it. He was just...there. No characterization, no nothing. There to be fodder. **** that ****.

Agreed.

 

[SentinelMind]

Well we aren't gonna agree. I feel he was a wasted character and it was a useless death and he was included for diversity in the movie. I see no other reason to have the character in the film. He wasn't even around back then and shouldn't have been their in the first place. If they was gonna use him they shouldve keep him alive long enough to actually have some sort of impact on the film instead of juat a kill scene.

Agreed...they could have taken the character out entirely and it would have had no impact on the movie other than there being no "token black guy." I guess the "betrayal" by Angel stripper character who looks mixed and that weird look at Darwin when Bacon mutters the word "enslaved" made the whole scene seem jarring.

 

[chamber-music]

I saw it that he was a Nazi. He escaped to South America, like so many Nazis did. Yes, he had other agendas in that camp, but he was a Nazi, in my view.

And I didn't mind the blending of Shaw with Sinister so it doesn't 'burn me' at all.

Shaw was a Nazis collaborator not a Nazis himself. He referred to Nazis as 'they' not 'we'.

It was clear Shaw was only intrested in mutants and the mutant race. He played humans of one another and used them as pawns to manipulate.

He worked with the Russians, Nazis and Americans to achieve his goals of mutant domination.

How many black Xmen are there besides Storm who is female. Bishop I believe was the only black male mutant that i know of that was an xman. I think he's dead now. I know there was a kid named Synch, he's dead to by the way.

There are plenty of Black X-Men besides the ones you mentioned- Anarchist, Bedlam, Maggott, Prodigy, Bling, Cecilia Reyes, Frenzy(Joanna Cargrill), Heather Hudson, Kestrel (John Wraith), Shard (Bishops sister), Tag, Spike, Venus Dee Milo, M, Sunspot.

How many of those are dead or in limbo though is another question

 

[truth]

The point that people are missing here is....why include him? Even if he was white, he would still have been a pointless character. You are really reaching and trying to get blood from grass in thinking Darwin's scene was powerful and thought-provoking. If the guy had actually been given some sort of character....DONE SOMETHING....BEATEN UP SOMEBODY...then maybe the scene would have meant something.
Zoe Kravitz is not black but she ain't white either. All the white mutants are the heroes of the film whilst the other NON-WHITE characters either die or defect to the evil side. It's simple imagery people, imagery that supports white= good non-white= not so good.

 

[BMM]

The point that people are missing here is....why include him? Even if he was white, he would still have been a pointless character. You are really reaching and trying to get blood from grass in thinking Darwin's scene was powerful and thought-provoking. If the guy had actually been given some sort of character....DONE SOMETHING....BEATEN UP SOMEBODY...then maybe the scene would have meant something.
Zoe Kravitz is not black but she ain't white either. All the white mutants are the heroes of the film whilst the other NON-WHITE characters either die or defect to the evil side. It's simple imagery people, imagery that supports white= good non-white= not so good.

If he had beaten up somebody? Are you kidding me??? You start this thread, and that's your idea of what's missing? Darwin does do something. He is the only person who does a thing in that scene. Everyone else is afraid to stand up to Sebastian Shaw. He barely even knows Angel, and he is willing to put himself in harm's way to stop her from making the wrong choice. I would rather that, than have him cower in the corner with the rest of the group. Yes, he dies. I can't say I'm surprised. I thought it was pretty obvious when Gathegi was cast that he wasn't going to make it very far and not because of his race, but because he's about as low on the character totem pole as you can get.

Yeah, I think people get it. You're not exactly blowing the lid off Hollywood here. Hollywood stereotypes, and that isn't limited to race. Anyone who isn't a white, heterosexual, good looking, young person generally doesn't get equal treatment. Hopefully, they do better next time.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

Well we aren't gonna agree. I feel he was a wasted character and it was a useless death and he was included for diversity in the movie. I see no other reason to have the character in the film. He wasn't even around back then and shouldn't have been their in the first place. If they was gonna use him they shouldve keep him alive long enough to actually have some sort of impact on the film instead of juat a kill scene.

he was a random choice of a character to use, I kinda agree... tho, maybe a little too random

idk, I think they wanted a death scene, they wanted it to be shocking, have an impact on the others, and picked him because given the nature of his powers, he could appear to die, but, have the potential to return… like Jeans death at the end of X2, did anyone actually believe that she was really dead

this isn't me being in denial of his death (like Cyclops fans) nor am I trying to justify it...

just saying

 

[nightwing06]

Darwin got the shaft i was shocked it happened so quickly.

 

[redhawk23]

The point that people are missing here is....why include him? Even if he was white, he would still have been a pointless character. You are really reaching and trying to get blood from grass in thinking Darwin's scene was powerful and thought-provoking. If the guy had actually been given some sort of character....DONE SOMETHING....BEATEN UP SOMEBODY...then maybe the scene would have meant something.
Zoe Kravitz is not black but she ain't white either. All the white mutants are the heroes of the film whilst the other NON-WHITE characters either die or defect to the evil side. It's simple imagery people, imagery that supports white= good non-white= not so good.

Really? White= Good? What about the fact that main villian is a rich white guy. What about the fact that he was a white nazi collaborator.
What about the fact that the secondary villian was a white woman dressed all in white?
What about the fact that all the members of the CIA save for Olliver Platt are a-holes, white government a-holes.
What about the fact that the guards that eventually try to sell out the kids to shaw are white?
What about the fact that all the commanders on the boats that target the beach are white?
What about the fact that Magneto who, despite that we know his motivations and possibly understand them, is white?
What about the fact that Xavier, despite being one of the "good guys" is also kind of arrogant, or at least aloof?

While I too am kind of annoyed by how whitewashed this film is, your argument is slightly ridiculous. Nearly all the villians and all the conflicts in this film are caused by whites. Most them are d**ks. Meanwhile the sole black character, while he is predictably killed off, dies while trying to save someone else.

 

[Nokio]

Shaw was a Nazis collaborator not a Nazis himself. He referred to Nazis as 'they' not 'we'.

There are plenty of Black X-Men besides the ones you mentioned- Anarchist, Bedlam, Maggott, Prodigy, Bling, Cecilia Reyes, Frenzy(Joanna Cargrill), Heather Hudson, Kestrel (John Wraith), Shard (Bishops sister), Tag, Spike, Venus Dee Milo, M, Sunspot.

How many of those are dead or in limbo though is another question

Never would've imagine Shaw to be the best villian in the Xfilms, and yes he was better then Magneto.

Black Xmen? I have no idea who some of them people are. They must have been in other titles like Xforce and stuff. Only read Xmen and not them spin offs. I know Maggott, Reyes, Sunspot, Shard, M, Frenzy and Kestral. Remember TAG for some reason.

Maggott: stupid character that left no impact, lame power

Reyes: served no purpose and poorly written, lame power.

Sunspot: He's supposed to be black? I don't think he is and it's certainly never been mentioned in the comics that I recall, but to be fair i didn't read the title he was featured in. The new Mutants and that title with cable as their leader.

Shard: wasn't she dead and was some type of computer program, lame power

M: didn't know she was supposed to black, I think she's arab.

TAG: was he an Xman?? probably the worst and most idiotic super power I've seen of any black character in the comic industry as a whole.

Frenzy: Not an Xmen. I said black Xmen, not black mutants.

Kestral: see above comment.

Heather Hudson:WTF? I'm pretty sure she's white. Wasn't she in Alpha Flight. Guardian I think she was after replacing her husband in the role.

 

[Apollo]

I was kinda mad that they [BLACKOUT]killed off darwin... i mean reeeally???? they just haaaaaaaaaaad to kill the black guy first?....[/BLACKOUT]

Same goes with John wraith...

 

[Nokio]

Zoe Kravitz is not black but she ain't white either.

That Lenny Kravitz daughter. I don't know why i didn't connect that and Iv'e seen her before. Lisa Bonet is her mom and She's not black now????

 

[Nokio]

Really? White= Good? What about the fact that main villian is a rich white guy. What about the fact that he was a white nazi collaborator.
What about the fact that the secondary villian was a white woman dressed all in white?
What about the fact that all the members of the CIA save for Olliver Platt are a-holes, white government a-holes.
What about the fact that the guards that eventually try to sell out the kids to shaw are white?
What about the fact that all the commanders on the boats that target the beach are white?
What about the fact that Magneto who, despite that we know his motivations and possibly understand them, is white?
What about the fact that Xavier, despite being one of the "good guys" is also kind of arrogant, or at least aloof?

While I too am kind of annoyed by how whitewashed this film is, your argument is slightly ridiculous. Nearly all the villians and all the conflicts in this film are caused by whites. Most them are d**ks. Meanwhile the sole black character, while he is predictably killed off, dies while trying to save someone else.

I think it can be said that there are plenty of white characters to balance it out. Not the same with black characters. The black dude is killed off first and they find the black chick in a strip club. That just smacks of the old Hollywood cliche. I'm surprised Darwin wasn't found by X and Mags boosting a car or selling drugs or running from the cops and they save him. But then again Darwin came across as intelligent and not some thug so he wouldn't have been kept. Ever notice how the well gronded black characters aren't kept but the thugs and bafoon will be.

 

[SuperSoldier985]

This thread deserves the biggest eye roll ever.

 

[Bren]

Well, I'm a white guy (since it seems we have to classify ourselves before posting *sad*) and all I saw was a guy standing up to the bad guys when the others were too scared to.

Maybe a plot device, but I thought he was a really good guy; he didn't even know Angel well, but was prepared to try 'help'. And none of the others appeared strong enough for their deaths to show show how powerful the bad guys were.

Also, I don't think it would be hard to bring him back, and would like him to; his powers mean he could easily have survived.

 

[Robin91939]

Zoe Kravitz is black. Her mom is Lisa Bonet from The Cosby Show and her father is Lenny Kravitz! She didn't die.

PLUS- the first MAJOR/FEATURED character to be killed in the film was WHITE: [blackout]Oliver Platt[/blackout]. So everyone saying they "had to kill the black character first" is completely wrong, go watch the movie again.

-R

 

[huzzah]

No, she has no argument to insult because she hasn't made any points. She has asserted, without evidence, that Darwin is 'the token black guy'.

I'm insulting the way she's hiding behind 'you wouldn't understand unless you're black'. Try making a persuasive argument.

He's the only black male in the film...dead. de ja vu. That's the point.

 

[danoyse]

I don't get the argument that Darwin never did anything. He took a chance and stood up to Shaw to try and help the others. He just died doing it, which sucked...but I'll take what he did over the white guy we heard yelling "TAKE THE MUTANTS AND LET US NORMAL PEOPLE GO!" before it happened.

 

[X-Maniac]

^^ Yes, agreed...

Also, the problem with Darwin's mutant power is that it is totally 'reactive' and undefined, which makes him difficult to use. He has no active/attack powers that can be fitted into a strategy.

 

[Shockadalite]

No, she has no argument to insult because she hasn't made any points. She has asserted, without evidence, that Darwin is 'the token black guy'.

I'm insulting the way she's hiding behind 'you wouldn't understand unless you're black'. Try making a persuasive argument.

Well, your response demonstrates that you clearly don't understand and I am assuming that you are also not "black", so now what? However, I never wrote, "You wouldn't understand unless you're black." I wrote, "People who have never experienced racism, or the more appropriate word, hatred, based of the melanin in one's skin would not understand." That is not exclusive to being labeled "black" and I was very deliberate with how I worded that statement.

If that is the assumption you formed from reading my post, then that would explain why you did not get the point of it. I was not aware that I had to provide concrete evidence for a statement I specially said was my OPINION. However, since we are providing concrete evidence, please provide same to show me how I am hiding behind anything? I put out exactly what I thought and why I thought it.

You say that I provided no evidence to suggest tokenism, what evidence have you provided to suggest that it is not?

Actually, your response further proves what I originally stated. Whenever this is brought up, here is this arrogant, naive, dismissive, patronizing attitude towards the people who point it out. Fact is, MANY African-Americans felt this, not just a few and your response?

>>"Well that's stupid, both the walking out and the being disappointed. "<< First you classify these people's actions and my feelings about it as being foolish and lacking any form of intelligence because you don't understand it or agree with it. And since it's never happened to you then it just doesn't exist, right? Well, if that's not the classic Hollywood's portrayal of people of color I don't know what it is. You probably don't even realize how that comment came off, you insult my intelligence because I don't agree with you. Classic! I feel like singing a Pocahontas song now. (Oh, I better be careful with that one, sarcasm is the favorite amongst those with your thought process; I also better spell my words right too, because any goof will mean that I am ignorant and incompetent).

It is tough to prove racism anyway, there are very few cases post the civil rights era that deliberate racism can be proven. It can always be covered up with someone just not liking you, you not being their choice/preference or in "Xmen First Class", "There are plenty of black XMen characters who don't die!"

Once again, I don't believe "racism" was behind him dying, that goes against the very reason the series was created. Whether or not it was tokenism, for me and many other people of color, the jury is still out on that one. And if you tell me I'm wrong, then prove that you're right.

 

[TomPiltoff]

Well, your response demonstrates that you clearly don't understand and I am assuming that you are also not "black", so now what?

Now you make an actual argument. All you're doing is asserting 'this is racist, Darwin is token black guy'.

I don't agree with that, and I've given you reasons why. You've given no argument.

I was not aware that I had to provide concrete evidence for a statement I specially said was my OPINION.

You're welcome to your opinion, but generally speaking it's always recommended to at least try to explain it. You haven't.

Fact is, MANY African-Americans felt this, not just a few and your response?

My response is that I don't give anybody automatic respect points just for being offended. I've yet to hear a strong argument.

 

[Robin91939]

Well, your response demonstrates that you clearly don't understand and I am assuming that you are also not "black", so now what? However, I never wrote, "You wouldn't understand unless you're black." I wrote, "People who have never experienced racism, or the more appropriate word, hatred, based of the melanin in one's skin would not understand." That is not exclusive to being labeled "black" and I was very deliberate with how I worded that statement.

If that is the assumption you formed from reading my post, then that would explain why you did not get the point of it. I was not aware that I had to provide concrete evidence for a statement I specially said was my OPINION. However, since we are providing concrete evidence, please provide same to show me how I am hiding behind anything? I put out exactly what I thought and why I thought it.

You say that I provided no evidence to suggest tokenism, what evidence have you provided to suggest that it is not?

Actually, your response further proves what I originally stated. Whenever this is brought up, here is this arrogant, naive, dismissive, patronizing attitude towards the people who point it out. Fact is, MANY African-Americans felt this, not just a few and your response?

>>"Well that's stupid, both the walking out and the being disappointed. "<< First you classify these people's actions and my feelings about it as being foolish and lacking any form of intelligence because you don't understand it or agree with it. And since it's never happened to you then it just doesn't exist, right? Well, if that's not the classic Hollywood's portrayal of people of color I don't know what it is. You probably don't even realize how that comment came off, you insult my intelligence because I don't agree with you. Classic! I feel like singing a Pocahontas song now. (Oh, I better be careful with that one, sarcasm is the favorite amongst those with your thought process; I also better spell my words right too, because any goof will mean that I am ignorant and incompetent).

It is tough to prove racism anyway, there are very few cases post the civil rights era that deliberate racism can be proven. It can always be covered up with someone just not liking you, you not being their choice/preference or in "Xmen First Class", "There are plenty of black XMen characters who don't die!"

Once again, I don't believe "racism" was behind him dying, that goes against the very reason the series was created. Whether or not it was tokenism, for me and many other people of color, the jury is still out on that one. And if you tell me I'm wrong, then prove that you're right.

This is all well and good, and you have articulated your point clearly....

But you still ignore the facts. The simple facts of the matter are:

1. Darwin wasn't the only black character in the film. Angel Salvadore (played by the VERY African American Zoe Kravitz) survived the length of the film.

2. More White characters than Black/Minority characters died throughout the course of the film....many faceless G-men, many U.S. Military Officials, Russian Officials; Nazis....Erik's Mother, so on...

3. Darwin was NOT the first main character from the film's ensemble to be killed off....did you not see Oliver Platt dropped from 10 stories to the concrete minutes before?


These 3 points kind of kill any and all argument. There were other cultures/colors represented....the fact that a black man died is not racist. It's life. In a war, like this, the enemy didn't care if the life he was taking was black or white--he was just killing the opposition.

The fact that a black man died is not racist, because as I've pointed out--he wasn't the only POC in the film. PLUS he was portrayed as a heroic, smart, charismatic character in the short time he had...not a racist caricature. The movie wasn't about DARWIN. He's a 3rd rate X-men character to begin with. BUT he has a very interesting power, and is seen as VERY hard to kill.... So, having HIM be the one to die showed the other mutants just how dangerous this was going to be.... The effect is different if, say, Banshee is killed... He's not as powerful a mutant...

Then there's the "they haaaad to kill the black guy first" argument that others have brought up.... I say to these people, go watch the film again. Oliver Platt dies minutes before, and Erik's mother dies 10 minutes into the film.

What next? Germans are going to come to this film saying it's racist to them, portraying them as all Nazi's? This is just LOOKING for racism. Darwin was viewed as a mutant character...not a black or white character. Finding racism in his death is only taking a step back from the idea that we should be looking at one another as equals...

I saw a brave man and powerful mutant killed.... You saw a black man murdered. Which one of us sounds more racist?

-R

 

[Cheshire1996]

^ I agree.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

I was kinda mad that they [BLACKOUT]killed off darwin... i mean reeeally???? they just haaaaaaaaaaad to kill the black guy first?....[/BLACKOUT]

Same goes with John wraith...

Wraith wasn't the first to die, Dominic was the first (of the main team) many people died in the movie, before that, but, he was the first main character... Silverfox (even tho, her death was faked), then Agent Zero...an it was implied that Sabretooth killed blob... so, he was actually nearly the last to die in that one (of the people to were killed)

 

[Shockadalite]

I didn't ignore any facts, I simply focused on this one character because that was the subject of this thread.

>>1. Darwin wasn't the only black character in the film. Angel Salvadore (played by the VERY African American Zoe Kravitz) survived the length of the film.<<

Okay, I didn't want to take it there, but I will. And mind you, I am playing devil's advocate here but am also saying what a lot of people of color have said or thought. Angel Salvadore could have been many other ethnicities, some people assumed she was Puerto Rican, someone else thought Arabian and who knows what else. The actress, Zoe Kravitz, grandmothers' are "white." Both of her parents are "bi-racial." She can play many roles that transcend color for the same reason Thandie Newton can, because she has fair skin. It is much more comfortable to put her in a role like this rather than, let's say Naturi Naughton. In other words, she could pass as something else. If you don't believe, research how many African-American actresses have been turned down for a part because they were too dark. You scoff at something that sounds ridiculous but is very much a big deal in entertainment and amongst people of color.

I am not saying that this is the reason WHY Zoe Kravitz got the part, what I am saying is, using her as an argument against Darwin doesn't hold much weight when looking at the history of cinema and Hollywood, their subjective casting practices and the fact that discrimination based off of skin color in Hollywood is the norm, NOT the exception.

>>2. More White characters than Black/Minority characters died throughout the course of the film....many faceless G-men, many U.S. Military Officials, Russian Officials; Nazis....Erik's Mother, so on...<<

More white characters will die in the film because it's more white characters in the film, that's just a basic numbers game. The ones that you mention above were not prominent characters.

>>3. Darwin was NOT the first main character from the film's ensemble to be killed off....did you not see Oliver Platt dropped from 10 stories to the concrete minutes before?<<

The argument has never been about Darwin being the first character killed off, the argument has been him being the first and only X-Man killed off. His character served no purpose, we never got to see him in action and if it was because Shaw was a Nazi, then I think that should have been articulated more. Also, why didn't Shaw go after Hvok? He was, however, the one who attacked him first.


>> The fact that a black man died is not racist, because as I've pointed out--he wasn't the only POC in the film.<<

I've always said I did not think it was racist, I said it seemed like tokenism.

>>PLUS he was portrayed as a heroic, smart, charismatic character in the short time he had...not a racist caricature.<<

Good. I'm glad that Hollywood is finally starting to see that people of color are not buffoons. Now if they could do something about casting more of them in prominent roles that actually survive the course of a mainstream film on a regular basis, then we'll be getting somewhere.

>>I saw a brave man and powerful mutant killed.... You saw a black man murdered. Which one of us sounds more racist?<<

I don't know how you sound. I'm not comparing. And I never called racism, I called tokenism (re-read my post, I made that emphatically clear). However, since we are on the subject, I always say racism is too nice a word, call it what it is - hatred. I call those who are unwilling to at least see this from an entire other group's perspective - naive.

What really is fascinating about this entire thread and those who dismiss any of this and shout, "the race card" is that, that was one of the reasons X-Men was created in the first place - to show what discrimination looks like. You might as well be one of the humans in the story shouting "We don't have anything against Mutants, we would just feel better if we knew who they were." This thread is actually mirroring the very case that X-Men is presenting and the reason it was created.

I actually see this on all sides, but I'm not going to pretend that I didn't find it annoying or disappointing that Darwin was killed off so fast. And I won't pretend that I didn't question the motives of the creators of the film (NOT the characters in the film, two different things) as did a lot of other people. Those who claim to be color-blind, I call bulls***. It may not be a determining factor in your choices, but all of us who grew up in the United States have been affected by it. Otherwise, why even post on this thread?



But you still ignore the facts. The simple facts of the matter are:

1. Darwin wasn't the only black character in the film. Angel Salvadore (played by the VERY African American Zoe Kravitz) survived the length of the film.

2. More White characters than Black/Minority characters died throughout the course of the film....many faceless G-men, many U.S. Military Officials, Russian Officials; Nazis....Erik's Mother, so on...

3. Darwin was NOT the first main character from the film's ensemble to be killed off....did you not see Oliver Platt dropped from 10 stories to the concrete minutes before?


These 3 points kind of kill any and all argument. There were other cultures/colors represented....the fact that a black man died is not racist. It's life. In a war, like this, the enemy didn't care if the life he was taking was black or white--he was just killing the opposition.

The fact that a black man died is not racist, because as I've pointed out--he wasn't the only POC in the film. PLUS he was portrayed as a heroic, smart, charismatic character in the short time he had...not a racist caricature. The movie wasn't about DARWIN. He's a 3rd rate X-men character to begin with. BUT he has a very interesting power, and is seen as VERY hard to kill.... So, having HIM be the one to die showed the other mutants just how dangerous this was going to be.... The effect is different if, say, Banshee is killed... He's not as powerful a mutant...

Then there's the "they haaaad to kill the black guy first" argument that others have brought up.... I say to these people, go watch the film again. Oliver Platt dies minutes before, and Erik's mother dies 10 minutes into the film.

What next? Germans are going to come to this film saying it's racist to them, portraying them as all Nazi's? This is just LOOKING for racism. Darwin was viewed as a mutant character...not a black or white character. Finding racism in his death is only taking a step back from the idea that we should be looking at one another as equals...

I saw a brave man and powerful mutant killed.... You saw a black man murdered. Which one of us sounds more racist?

-R[/QUOTE]