Superman Returns SR wins 2 Total Film Readers awards!

[mego joe]

It seems Superman has been used too much in publicity and certain campaigns since he’s supposed to be some kind of perfect role model when, in reality, even role models have problems and make mistakes. As anyone else, he has the right to learn from his mistakes which he’s entitled to make as long as he faces the consequences.



And now I lost the bit when Lois was supposed to be a mature character. She might have matured throughout the movie, but she’s far from being a mature character.

Just another example of how the misinterpreted the characters.

Jesus Christ NO! Lex and his henchmen immature???? Are you sure about this revolutionary theory of yours??

Positive!

They base their lives on taking from and hurt innocent people as a way of making a living? What are you trying to prove here? They’re supposed to be twisted people.

And therefore should be significantly different than Superman.

Richard is a hero. For what we know, his apparent perfection should match your life.

No. My wife and I did not have children until AFTER we got married.

Superman would never quit his mission or go to a diner to take personal revenge on a human being. But hey, that happened in Superman II. Much to your personal life’s mismatch, this guy is not perfect. And has shown us so before.

Don't embarras yourself by showing how you don't understand SUperman II again.

Of course you know about the difference between understanding something and do it. I mean, of course with your moral standards you don’t know. But you’d probably have heard of.

Oh yes. But there's no reason to think that Superman doesn't do what he knows to be right.

Just like you like your Daredevil movie. No problem here.

Nope. It was good.

Superman learnt that too. The problem is when you face the actual situation. Adults, that are not perfect like you of course, suffers from pain and anguish many times. Those are not adolescence-only stages. Not even immaturity is adolescence-only characteristic.

That's the thing though, Superman is NOT an immature individual, yet his actions in SR and backstory make him out to be one.

 

[El Payaso]

Just another example of how the misinterpreted the characters.

No. Lois has been described many many times as immature. Specially on this franchise. Which, I’m sure you know, SR is based on.

And therefore should be significantly different than Superman.

And they are, stealing, killing people, hitting a woman. Maybe if you weatch the movie...

No. My wife and I did not have children until AFTER we got married.

Naturally, more perfect trhan perfect is what you’re trying to make us belie--- I mean, is what you are.

Don't embarras yourself by showing how you don't understand SUperman II again.

You liked Daredevil. By comparision nothing will be more embarrassing.

Btw, any proof that Superman never quit his mission or went to a diner to take personal revenge on a human being as I said or you’re just trying to reply anything to defend yourself while think of a proper reply?

Nevertheless my point remains. Whaty Superman does in the comics doesn’t always match what he has done in this franchise. If a taxi got ruined because Clark was negligent, I’m sure he’d leave a few bucks. He didn’t on SII though. See?

Oh yes. But there's no reason to think that Superman doesn't do what he knows to be right.

There’s an entire franchise about how he disobey Jor-El, then Lara, then betray his mission, etc etc. So you don’t have to collect reasons to know if Superman does or doesn not what he knows is right.

That's the thing though, Superman is NOT an immature individual, yet his actions in SR and backstory make him out to be one.

Making a mistake is part of everybody. Matureness doesn’t imply perfection.

 

[stargazer]

Some people want Superman to be none other than Jesus, I'm telling you. But even Jesus had doubts, and even Jesus got angry and showed some violence.. but he still sacrified his life for humanity at the end.

 

[El Payaso]

Some people want Superman to be none other than Jesus, I'm telling you. But even Jesus had doubts, and even Jesus got angry and showed some violence.. but he still sacrified his life for humanity at the end.

Jesus doubted. Moral standards not high enough. :

 

[X-Maniac]

Some people want Superman to be none other than Jesus, I'm telling you. But even Jesus had doubts, and even Jesus got angry and showed some violence.. but he still sacrified his life for humanity at the end.

With respect, I think Bryan Singer wanted Superman to be Jesus! Talk of saviours, a pose with outstretched arms in front of the sun like that painting, being stabbed in the side, leaving his hospital bed like Christ disappearing from the tomb....

I think it's a case that some of us just wanted him to be mature enough and man enough and upstanding enough to say goodbye to Lois before leaving earth. The fact she was pregnant makes him look horrible for not saying goodbye - he didn't know she was pregnant but the fact she was pregnant implies an intimacy and love (indeed, she was definitely in love, that was obvious) and makes him look cold and horrible. That's the crux of the argument over characterisation.

 

[El Payaso]

With respect, I think Bryan Singer wanted Superman to be Jesus! Talk of saviours, a pose with outstretched arms in front of the sun like that painting, being stabbed in the side, leaving his hospital bed like Christ disappearing from the tomb....

Then again Donner made Krypton heaven-like, Jor-El giving some Biblical-sounding speeches, the star-like spaceship, Luthor living underground, Superman being resurrected from his watery grave, etc etc.

Truth is Superman is a character than from his beginning had great Biblical influence and you can find Jesus comparisions in its origin and the Donner movie all over. So what Singer did was nothing new.

But none wanted him to be Jesus. The way none wants Hulk to be Jekyll & Hyde in spite of its inherent similarities. Neverthelss those were influences at the moment of conceiving the characters and many artist have gone to the original source at the moment of re-interpreting those characters.

Btw, "saviour"

saviour Show phonetics
noun [C]
1 UK (US savior) a person who saves someone from danger or harm
quite accurate if I may say.

I think it's a case that some of us just wanted him to be mature enough and man enough and upstanding enough to say goodbye to Lois before leaving earth.

That wouldn’t have harmed the movie if Lois would have remained angry at him the way she was on SR.

The fact she was pregnant makes him look horrible for not saying goodbye - he didn't know she was pregnant but the fact she was pregnant implies an intimacy and love (indeed, she was definitely in love, that was obvious) and makes him look cold and horrible. That's the crux of the argument over characterisation.

As you say, he didn’t know she was pregnant.

Nevertheless this is the Superman version, started in 1978, that quit his mission for a girl leaving everbody on Earth defensless, that when bullied is able to go back and have his personal revenge over a human being abusing from his super-powers.

I like it more knowing that he DID say good-bye, but let’s not forget here that he’s not that perfect in this cinematographic saga as some seems to believe.

 

[stargazer]

With respect, I think Bryan Singer wanted Superman to be Jesus! Talk of saviours, a pose with outstretched arms in front of the sun like that painting, being stabbed in the side, leaving his hospital bed like Christ disappearing from the tomb....

I think it's a case that some of us just wanted him to be mature enough and man enough and upstanding enough to say goodbye to Lois before leaving earth. The fact she was pregnant makes him look horrible for not saying goodbye - he didn't know she was pregnant but the fact she was pregnant implies an intimacy and love (indeed, she was definitely in love, that was obvious) and makes him look cold and horrible. That's the crux of the argument over characterisation.

I don't. He used the Christ imagery in the movie to imply that Superman is a lot like Jesus, as in Superman is also a saviour (but he saves your butt not your soul), kind, noble, selfless, virtuous, and someone who even risk his own life in order to protect us.

But Singer also used other mythological characters in the film as allegories, not just the Christ ones (Atlas, Hercules, Zeus).

 

[X-Maniac]

Then again Donner made Krypton heaven-like, Jor-El giving some Biblical-sounding speeches, the star-like spaceship, Luthor living underground, Superman being resurrected from his watery grave, etc etc.

Truth is Superman is a character than from his beginning had great Biblical influence and you can find Jesus comparisions in its origin and the Donner movie all over. So what Singer did was nothing new.

But none wanted him to be Jesus. The way none wants Hulk to be Jekyll & Hyde in spite of its inherent similarities. Neverthelss those were influences at the moment of conceiving the characters and many artist have gone to the original source at the moment of re-interpreting those characters.

Btw, "saviour"

saviour Show phonetics
noun [C]
1 UK (US savior) a person who saves someone from danger or harm
quite accurate if I may say.

I think Singer clearly wanted 'saviour' to be taken in a religious sense. I'm not against symbolism but it shouldn't be forcing the story to take certain directions and it shouldn't be so 'obvious' and forced that it's almost hamfisted.

It's not a major issue with the movie for me, but a friend of mine felt strongly about it. My main issue is with Superman not saying goodbye and the editing/structure of the movie.

That wouldn’t have harmed the movie if Lois would have remained angry at him the way she was on SR.

Did Lois need to be so angry at him? Is this required for the story? She would no doubt be hurt over his being gone for so long and when she found she was pregnant, she would be hurt too. Probably enough to still write that article.

As you say, he didn’t know she was pregnant.

Nevertheless this is the Superman version, started in 1978, that quit his mission for a girl leaving everbody on Earth defensless, that when bullied is able to go back and have his personal revenge over a human being abusing from his super-powers.

I like it more knowing that he DID say good-bye, but let’s not forget here that he’s not that perfect in this cinematographic saga as some seems to believe.

I just find it hard to believe that he would leave earth and tell no-one, but i understand some people accept it. For me, it would make Superman a much more relatable, likable person worthy of more empathy if he had told Lois he was going away. I also think the Krypton sequence is pretty essential to the movie and should have been the opening scene, not the scene with Lex swindling the old woman. If we saw Superman go to Krypton, find nothing left but barren rocks and poison kryptonite and ruins of a civilisation, we would feel for him in his alienation and isolation and we would know that he knew finally and for sure he had to find a place on earth.

 

[X-Maniac]

I don't. He used the Christ imagery in the movie to imply that Superman is a lot like Jesus, as in Superman is also a saviour (but he saves your butt not your soul), kind, noble, selfless, virtuous, and someone who even risk his own life in order to protect us.

But Singer also used other mythological characters in the film as allegories, not just the Christ ones (Atlas, Hercules, Zeus).

I think in order for Superman to appear 'kind, noble, selfless, virtuous and someone who even risked his life', he should have said goodbye to Lois. What he did in creeping away like that was not kind, or noble, or selfless or virtuous.

And because he left, he cannot truly be with Lois or his son Jason, so he lost a lot. Despite feeling reconnected to earth via Jason, he cannot ever really be with Jason or part of Jason's life. He is just as alienated and isolated - the FoS is invaded and technologically dead, his link to Jor-El is gone, his 'girlfriend' Lois is happy with someone else, his son Jason has a stable familu life with another dad. So, despite all the events of the movie, Superman is still alienated and isolated. The only change is that he knows for sure that Krypton is dead and gone (which was always assumed until SR threw up the backstory of its discovery luring him away, the audience has never before considered the idea that there might be survivors, it's never been hinted at previously in the movies), and he knows that he has a son on earth (and yet, ironically, his act of going away means he cannot be with that son in any proper sense).

 

[skruloos]

I think in order for Superman to appear 'kind, noble, selfless, virtuous and someone who even risked his life', he should have said goodbye to Lois. What he did in creeping away like that was not kind, or noble, or selfless or virtuous.

You're right. It was human. It was insecurity involving the only person he would actually be that emotionally invested in or taken aback by. Lois is to his heart as Kryptonite is to the rest of him. It is a simple, human flaw that happens in real life.

 

[mego joe]

I don't. He used the Christ imagery in the movie to imply that Superman is a lot like Jesus, as in Superman is also a saviour (but he saves your butt not your soul), kind, noble, selfless, virtuous, and someone who even risk his own life in order to protect us.

But Singer also used other mythological characters in the film as allegories, not just the Christ ones (Atlas, Hercules, Zeus).

The only one that carried any substance though was Christ, Atlas was simply cosmetic and I don't believe there are any references to Hercules/ Herakles or Zeus.

 

[mego joe]

I just find it hard to believe that he would leave earth and tell no-one, but i understand some people accept it. For me, it would make Superman a much more relatable, likable person worthy of more empathy if he had told Lois he was going away. I also think the Krypton sequence is pretty essential to the movie and should have been the opening scene, not the scene with Lex swindling the old woman. If we saw Superman go to Krypton, find nothing left but barren rocks and poison kryptonite and ruins of a civilisation, we would feel for him in his alienation and isolation and we would know that he knew finally and for sure he had to find a place on earth.

Exactly. Seeing a character do something they know is wrong does not garner empathy from the audience. But if he HAD said goodbye I would certainly have empathized, but to knowingly do the what he knew was wrong just makes him seem uncaring and selfish. And those qualities don't generally create a sense of empathy from the viewer.

 

[mego joe]

I think in order for Superman to appear 'kind, noble, selfless, virtuous and someone who even risked his life', he should have said goodbye to Lois. What he did in creeping away like that was not kind, or noble, or selfless or virtuous.

And because he left, he cannot truly be with Lois or his son Jason, so he lost a lot. Despite feeling reconnected to earth via Jason, he cannot ever really be with Jason or part of Jason's life. He is just as alienated and isolated - the FoS is invaded and technologically dead, his link to Jor-El is gone, his 'girlfriend' Lois is happy with someone else, his son Jason has a stable familu life with another dad. So, despite all the events of the movie, Superman is still alienated and isolated. The only change is that he knows for sure that Krypton is dead and gone (which was always assumed until SR threw up the backstory of its discovery luring him away, the audience has never before considered the idea that there might be survivors, it's never been hinted at previously in the movies), and he knows that he has a son on earth (and yet, ironically, his act of going away means he cannot be with that son in any proper sense).

Agreed, X-man. For all the 'change' he's supposedly gone through he's sort of ended up in the same position, only worse! What he could have gained- a son, he's lost due to his cowardice in not saying goodbye to Lois.

 

[mego joe]

You're right. It was human. It was insecurity involving the only person he would actually be that emotionally invested in or taken aback by. Lois is to his heart as Kryptonite is to the rest of him. It is a simple, human flaw that happens in real life.

She may be 'kryptonite to his heart' but why does it make him NOT be honest with her before he leaves? If she's so integral to his happiness, why would he screw her over like that? That's the story that's not told, that's the aspect that makes him out-of-character. He's never done it before, so why would he do it now?

 

[Dr. Fate]

You're right. It was human. It was insecurity involving the only person he would actually be that emotionally invested in or taken aback by. Lois is to his heart as Kryptonite is to the rest of him. It is a simple, human flaw that happens in real life.

And it still makes him look like a rat bastard who cares more about himself than the woman he supposedly loved.

 

[mego joe]

And it still makes him look like a rat bastard who cares more about himself than the woman he supposedly loved.

Yup.

 

[stargazer]

I think in order for Superman to appear 'kind, noble, selfless, virtuous and someone who even risked his life', he should have said goodbye to Lois. What he did in creeping away like that was not kind, or noble, or selfless or virtuous.

And because he left, he cannot truly be with Lois or his son Jason, so he lost a lot. Despite feeling reconnected to earth via Jason, he cannot ever really be with Jason or part of Jason's life. He is just as alienated and isolated - the FoS is invaded and technologically dead, his link to Jor-El is gone, his 'girlfriend' Lois is happy with someone else, his son Jason has a stable familu life with another dad. So, despite all the events of the movie, Superman is still alienated and isolated. The only change is that he knows for sure that Krypton is dead and gone (which was always assumed until SR threw up the backstory of its discovery luring him away, the audience has never before considered the idea that there might be survivors, it's never been hinted at previously in the movies), and he knows that he has a son on earth (and yet, ironically, his act of going away means he cannot be with that son in any proper sense).

He made a mistake, and it's Not the first time in his life that he's made one, according to the Donner movies. This Superman is treated as a real person in a realistic world, and even good people make mistakes. Besides, he realized his mistake and apologized to Lois. He seemed very regretful about it, IMO. He also realized he lost Lois to Richard, let go of her, and moved on to be Superman. Plus, he got the beatdown of his life, almost dies saving the world, loses and important part of his kryptonian heritage (his crystals). I think he paid for his sins, he literally went through hell. I forgive him.

And despite his mistake, guess what, he still felt caring, warm, virtuous, and heroic to me throughout the film. Interesting. Bryan Singer is a good storyteller in my view.

At the end of the movie, when Superman gives his speech to a sleeping Jason, all I saw was a father overjoyed at discovering his fatherhood. I relate to that. It's a joy that nothing compares to it. Nothing. Superman knows he is not alone anymore, but more importantly, Jason will never be alone. He has Richard, Lois and Supes watching over him. What a lucky boy! When Superman says good night to Lois, I saw peace on his face (and hers), and when he was flying away over the clouds, his body language told me that he was very, very happy and totally convinced that he is indeed Earth's greatest protector, and that he is needed. The visuals don't lie. I soo love this film.

You're right. It was human. It was insecurity involving the only person he would actually be that emotionally invested in or taken aback by. Lois is to his heart as Kryptonite is to the rest of him. It is a simple, human flaw that happens in real life.

Exactly.

 

[mego joe]

He made a mistake, and it's Not the first time in his life that he's made one, according to the Donner movies. This Superman is treated as a real person in a realistic world, and even good people make mistakes. Besides, he realized his mistake and apologized to Lois. He seemed very regretful about it, IMO. He also realized he lost Lois to Richard, let go of her, and moved on to be Superman. Plus, he got the beatdown of his life, almost dies saving the world, loses and important part of his kryptonian heritage (his crystals). I think he paid for his sins, he literally went through hell. I forgive him.

And despite his mistake, guess what, he still felt caring, warm, virtuous, and heroic to me throughout the film. Interesting. Bryan Singer is a good storyteller in my view.

At the end of the movie, when Superman gives his speech to a sleeping Jason, all I saw was a father overjoyed at discovering his fatherhood. I relate to that. It's a joy that nothing compares to it. Nothing. Superman knows he is not alone anymore, but more importantly, Jason will never be alone. He has Richard, Lois and Supes watching over him. What a lucky boy! When Superman says good night to Lois, I saw peace on his face (and hers), and when he was flying away over the clouds, his body language told me that he was very, very happy and totally convinced that he is indeed Earth's greatest protector, and that he is needed. The visuals don't lie. I soo love this film.







Exactly.

As a father of 2, I relate to that as well. Except, it is entirely meaningless if you can't actually raise your child and be an active parent in that child's life. It played as bitter sweet, not joyous. Even the lifted lines from S:TM are from a bitter sweet moment- Jor-El knowing he's saving his son's life but knowing he'll never be able to experience raising his son.

As for mistakes. Not all mistakes are the same. And I think Superman really only made 1 mistake in S:TM and SII, and the substance of it is entirely different from his calous treatment of Lois Lane in the backstory to SR.

 

[stargazer]

As a father of 2, I relate to that as well. Except, it is entirely meaningless if you can't actually raise your child and be an active parent in that child's life. It played as bitter sweet, not joyous. Even the lifted lines from S:TM are from a bitter sweet moment- Jor-El knowing he's saving his son's life but knowing he'll never be able to experience raising his son.

As for mistakes. Not all mistakes are the same. And I think Superman really only made 1 mistake in S:TM and SII, and the substance of it is entirely different from his calous treatment of Lois Lane in the backstory to SR.

I'm a parent of a seven year old boy, same age as Jason when we saw the movie. The difference here is that unlike Jor-El, Superman is alive, and that makes a big difference. Also, this is Superman's new family (Jason, Lois and even Richard), it's unusual, but it's his. There are different types of families in the world nowdays, you know.

See? You think very high of the Superman of STM and S2, and forgive him for his mistakes. You don't want to see that he was as flawed as the Supes of SR. It's just different points of view. I don't share your opinion. I love both portrayals of the character, but I can see their flaws. At least the directors tried to humanize Superman and make him relatable, while telling good and interesting stories, and achieving great filmaking.

 

[mego joe]

I'm a parent of a seven year old boy, same age as Jason when we saw the movie. The difference here is that unlike Jor-El, Superman is alive, and that makes a big difference.

The difference to me is that Jor-El did EVERYTHING he could to give his son a chance at life and SUperman abandonned his responsibility to being in a sexual relationship with Lois and therefore his responsibility to the fruits of that relationship.

The context makes SUperman look like a jerk/ bastard and Jor-El a loving and caring father.

Also, this is Superman's new family (Jason, Lois and even Richard), it's unusual, but it's his. There are different types of families in the world nowdays, you know.

It in no way absolves SUperman from his responsibilities just b/c a genuinely resposible and caring man (Richard) is there to pick up the pieces of the lives SUperman has shattered b/c of his selfish actions.

See? You think very high of the Superman of STM and S2, and forgive him for his mistakes.

One mistake.

You don't want to see that he was as flawed as the Supes of SR.

He wasn't flawed in the same way. He in no way abandonned his responsiblity to Lois in S:TM/ SII the way he did in SR. The mistakes are not the same. They involve similar themes but the mistakes are different in substance. Not all mistakes are the same. B/c he made the one mistakein SII, in no way equates to the mistake in SR. In fact, based on his characterization from the mistake in SII he would not be capable of abandonning Lois as he does in SR.

It's just different points of view. I don't share your opinion.

Different POV, true, but for me the one in SR just doesn't ring true to the characterization of Superman. He has been changed fundamentally. An aspect of the essence of his character has been changed and is just not a correct portrayal of the character.

I love both portrayals of the character, but I can see their flaws. At least the directors tried to humanize Superman and make him relatable, while telling good and interesting stories, and achieving great filmaking.

I think S:TM is close to great filmmaking, SII falls significantly and SR is disatrous in terms of story/ backstory/ casting/ 'homage' concept and editing. Though it did look pretty.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Superman Returns is no way the best movie of 2006.

Other films released in 2006: Casino Royale, Pan's Labyrinth, V for Vendetta, Blood Diamond, Apocalypto, The Prestige, The Illusionist, Children of Men, Da Vinci Code. I haven't seen Apocalypto... but all the other movies were better than SR.

(I've left out loads of movies from that year, such as PoTC: Dead Man's Chest, and even X:Men The Last Stand.)

NON of those movies, especially X3 were better than SR with the exception of Pan's Labyrinth. IMO SR was the 2nd best movie of 2006 and it seems the readers of Total Film agree with or even liked it more than me. I didnt like Apocalypto or Da Vinci Code (but then didnt like the book either) or the dreadful X3, but liked many others from 2006, like V For Vendetta, The Prestige (which was a very close 3rd for me, great movie), and i liked Casino Royale, Dead Man's Chest and Children Of Men but felt all were over-rated, but non were anywere near as good as SR IMO.

SR is a great movie, and one that made up for a lot of the dissapointments in 2006 for me.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I like his style, a lot. He directs his actors in such an interesting way, makes them communicate ideas and feelings not only through dialogue, but also through body language, facial expressions, the eyes, visuals (like in SR) and there is a lot of subtext and layers all over his movies that I find fascinating. He is a very sophisticated director. Love that. Maybe that's a little too complicated for average joe... who knows. I can't wait to see what he does with Valkarye, though I am no Cruise fan, still I want to see what Singer does to him....and Terrence Stamp! Coolness, haha.

Not exactly.

I saw a lot of maturity in the characters, but they still had lessons to be learned, challenges to overcome, and some growing up to do, just like we all do in real life. I'm an adult, and I consider myself pretty mature, but I'm still learning about life. We never stop learning, no matter how old we are. In this film Superman is portrayed in a real life setting and as a 3-dimensional character, hence why he was not perfect in every way like in the cartoons.

These two postusm up my feeling about Singer and Superman in SR perfectly MP, i couldnt find a part of either post i disagreed with. SR is a great Singer movie were a lot of the story is told through facial expressions rather than words and Brandon and the rest of the cast pull it off perfectly. IMO its in Singer's top3 just behind X2 and Usual Suspects and i cant wait to see what he brings to the table in MOS.