State Your Opinion on A DC Character - Part 3

[Kurosawa]

Always have liked Hippolyte, thought the idea of her as WW in the ClutterEarth JSA was ingenius.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

it's wonder woman's mom for Themyscira sake!
Wonderman = bad ass thus her mom is =even more bad ass!....plus she's a MILF!

 

[Mystirious]

Bad ass bisexual queen of an island of Amazons. Yep i loves her

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Like everything involving Wonder Woman, I just stopped caring about her eventually because pretty much everything since Rucka's run has been mediocre.

 

[WompuM]

There's your f**king hat.

Moving on.

Spoiler

Queen Hippolyta

That's not even a gasmask. It's a paintball mask. Dumb. He was the main character of like the first 2 issues of JSA and then disappeared altogether.

I never knew the history of Hipp. Was she the Wonder Woman during WW2? Does she pre-date Diana as Wonder Woman or stated after?

 

[Mystirious]

Like everything involving Wonder Woman, I just stopped caring about her eventually because pretty much everything since Rucka's run has been mediocre.

Pretty much

DC need to hurry up and put him back on the series. And let him do whatever the heck he wants with the characters

 

[Anubis]

That's not even a gasmask. It's a paintball mask. Dumb. He was the main character of like the first 2 issues of JSA and then disappeared altogether.

I never knew the history of Hipp. Was she the Wonder Woman during WW2? Does she pre-date Diana as Wonder Woman or stated after?

Post Crisis, yeah. But it was kinda weird. See, she was so inspired by her daughter running around as Wonder Woman, she went back in time and became Wonder Woman in the 40's. So, technically, Diana was first, even though Queen Hippo hehe was WW before her.

Anyways....

Spoiler

Now service me man ****e!

Steve Trevor

 

[Mystirious]

Normally I like a man who spends most his time tied up but Steve Trevor is a character I've never really dug

 

[Panthro]

Steve Trevor is the Male Lois Lane.

 

[Mystirious]

Golden age Steve Trevor totally is

 

[greenrage36]

Steve Trevor is the Male Lois Lane.

hahaha..couldn't have said it better myself!! EXACTLY how I feel about him...

 

[The Question]

That's not true. Lois has a personality.

Steve is probably the weakest part of the Wonder Woman mythos, which is funny because he's kind of what initiates the plot at first. It's kind of like Krypton exploding being the weakest part os the Superman mythos, or that guy killing Bruce's parents being the weakest part of the Batman mythos. I guess it kind of makes sense because Superman never had an explosion for a supporting character. And if Joe Chill was hanging out in the bat cave all the time it would be a little depressing and awkward.

Anyway my point is that Steve isn't a very interesting character and besides being the impetus for Diana to leave the island and for Hippolyta to want to have an ambassador to man's world, he really doesn't have anything to do with any of the major plots or story lines in Wonder Woman's comics or any of the things that make her interesting. I mean, back when the comic was set in World War Two and the bad guys were mostly Nazis, it kind of made sense because he was an Airforce pilot but somehow also an OSS agent.

I guess he needed more hours at work to pay for a car or something.

But all of the things that have really come to define Wonder Woman over the years, the stuff that actually makes her cool and interesting, Steve doesn't really fit into. Greek mythology, international politics, the weird incest-y family dynamics of the Greek Gods, being a role model and religious figure, decapitating ugly lizard women, mommy issues, overt paganism, implied bisexuality, Maxwell Lord killing, giving Superman relationship advice, sexual tension with Batman, Steve Trevor just doesn't really fit in with any of that stuff by the nature of his character. He's a military guy. He flies planes and kills whoever America doesn't like right now. It's kind of hard to find not stupid reasons for him to be involved with stuff that doesn't have anything to do with war or protecting American interests.

And on top of that, he and Diana don't make a very good couple. That's partly because the writers never gave him any kind of personality besides being generically nice and brave and patriotic, but that's also because he and Diana never had any chemistry.

Clark Kent and Lois Lane have loads of chemistry. They have a lot of differences so it's not like they're just dating clones of each other. Clark's from a small town and Lois is from the big city, Clark is really polite and quiet and Lois is really blunt and sarcastic, Clark always has to hide something about himself and live this dual life and is never totally honest in any circumstances while Lois is really open and self confident and honest and values truth and honesty a lot, Clark's a very private person and respects the privacy of others while Lois isn't and doesn't, Clark is really optimistic while Lois is really cynical. But at the same time they have some really important things in common. They both want to help people, they want to make the world a better place, they want to make sure bad people don't get away with doing bad things and ordinary people don't get stepped on and are given a chance, they're both very brave and selfless, and most importantly they both see something that they need in each other. Lois grounds Clark, she's a really normal person with normal concerns and problems, and that sense of normalcy is why he has a secret identity in the first place. Clark, as Superman, represents all this optimistic ideas Lois gave up on a long time ago, but the fact that he chooses to live a normal life and be a normal man as much as he can grounds that optimism and makes it real for her. They're just two people who fit together really well, and it makes sense that they'd fall in love and care about each other very deeply.

Steve and Diana don't have that. Again, that's partly because Steve basically doesn't have a personality, but it's also because of how Diana's written. Wonder Woman was designed to be a strong, independent person to shake of negative gender stereotypes. Now I'm not saying that a woman isn't strong or independent if she falls in love with a man, because that's dumb, but what I am saying is that she is, partly by design, a character who doesn't have romance as a goal and who's independence is actually a key part of the story. Her origin story is her gaining independence from her mother and going pout into the world on her own all coming-of-age style.

It also doesn't help that Steve and Diana aren't equals in the story. The first published Superman story was told largely from Lois' point of view. Superman's the title character but Clark and Lois are really both the protagonists of the story, something a lot of writers forget because they're dumb.

That's not the case in Wonder Woman. Steve arriving on the Island sets the story in motion, but after that it is very much Diana's story. It's her defying her mother and leaving for man's world, it's her becoming her people's ambassador, it's her becoming a hero and finding a sense of purpose in life, it's her dealing with the challenges that come at the price of her independence, and Steve really doesn't have much to do with any of that. He just stands around and occasionally shoots someone. He does not share the role of protagonist with Diana, he is very much a supporting character, and when the big focus of your story is the main character gaining independence for the first time in her life, it's really hard to put her into a relationship with an underdeveloped supporting character with no bearing on the plot after the first issue and have it ring true.

I kind of think that Steve would work better as a villain. Like, not a super evil arch villain, but as an antagonist who's not a bad person but who's on a side that stands in opposition to the hero.

What I mean is, Diana's an ambassador to man's world, and that means she's going to have to deal with a lot of political ********, especially from the United States and the other G8 and NATO nations. Now, Diana's all about peace and truth and mercy and helping the helpless and tempering actions with wisdom. Not that she's not a warrior because she totally is, and I still think her being the member of the Trinity who's most okay with killing guys makes a lot of sense. But her patron god is Athena, who's the god of war and wisdom. She fights, but she still tries to not kill people if she doesn't have to and she tries to avoid fighting if she can. And she only fights as a means to help people who are in trouble. So she'd stand in opposition to a lot of stuff America does, like our foreign military presence, how we treat poor people, how we treat not-white people, how we treat gay people, basically how we treat people who don't look and act like your average host of the 700 Club, and the fact that she's such a huge feminist icon and a religious figure to some means that her badmouthing them actually would hurt them a little bit. In addition to that, she's into a lot of stuff that's not cool with most modern day Americans. She's bisexual, she's foreign, she's royalty, she's a pagan, she's into bondage even though they don't talk about that much anymore. Both socially a politically, she'd be considered "un-American" by a lot of people in power.

And you've got Steve, who's a soldier, and a patriot. It would make a lot of sense to have his appearing on the Island what gets the ball rolling, and he starts off as Diana's friend, but then as Wonder Woman starts making waves and seems like she might be a threat to political stability, Steve starts getting orders to spy on her and assess her weaknesses and make plans to be used against her, and he's all morally conflicted about it but goes ahead anyway. Then you'd have this issue of wether or not they can trust each other, and you can keep bringing Steve back because he's had firsthand experience with all the weird magical stuff Wonder Woman deals with because they used to hang out, and it would make interesting conflict and give him something to do and a reason to be there and some actual character development.

But I don't know that's just what I think.

 

[Kurosawa]

The reason male fans and some female fans don't like Steve Trevor is because he is portrayed as so inferior to Wonder Woman, and they want her to be with someone who is more of a match for her. Basically the entire concept of Wonder Woman is something that male fans just cannot handle, and Trevor as a submissive male who admits and accepts his position as a woman's inferior is just too much.

Wonder Woman has never really worked since WMM's death, and I don't see the strip ever really working again.

 

[The Question]

The reason male fans and some female fans don't like Steve Trevor is because he is portrayed as so inferior to Wonder Woman, and they want her to be with someone who is more of a match for her. Basically the entire concept of Wonder Woman is something that male fans just cannot handle, and Trevor as a submissive male who admits and accepts his position as a woman's inferior is just too much.

Wonder Woman has never really worked since WMM's death, and I don't see the strip ever really working again.

That's not why I don't like him. I don't like him because he's boring and doesn't really contribute to the story. I kind of just wrote a bunch of paragraphs about that.

 

[The Question]

I mean, I guess I would be uncomfortable with a relationship where the man is inferior and submissive, but I'd be uncomfortable with a relationship where the woman is inferior and submissive. Maybe this is just my take on such matters, but I generally feel like romantic relationships require both parties involved to be equal in some way in order to be healthy. That doesn't mean they have to be equally skilled and competent. I'm not saying Wonder Woman has to be romantically involved with someone who could take her in a fight any more than Superman has to. But the way I see it, two people in a relationship have to have equal power in the relationship and see each other as equals or it's just creepy.

But maybe I'm just getting caught up in semantics.

 

[Kurosawa]

None of what you talked about is the real Wonder Woman to me. Wonder Woman to me is what Marston did and that's it. I don't count any of the other stuff. For Wonder Woman to work, her man-or her woman, whoever it is, has to be inferior to her and dominated by her.

Wonder Woman's strip doesn't work unless it's written by a hardcore feminist, IMO. WMM was a one of a kind guy. Anyone else writing Wonder Woman has failed, it would be like having Jim Davis do Pogo.

People can accept Lois as being inferior to Superman because EVERYONE'S inferior to Superman. People accept Catwoman as being close to equal with Batman because part of Batman's charm is his supposed limitations. But not only Wonder Woman, but all superheroines, their civilian male romantic interests are rejected by comics fans, and only superheroes are acceptable mates for them. It's why Steve Trevor is judged boring, why Larry Lance is dead, why no one can even name the romantic interests for most superheroines like Ms. Marvel unless it's a superhero. It's why people wanted Helena Wayne with Dick Grayson instead of Harry Sims even though that's practically incest.

It's also why lesbian superheroines are easier for male fans to take unless they're homophobic idiots.

Maybe Wonder Woman just needs a girlfriend instead. Not that DC would be that brave.

 

[greenrage36]

I get what you're saying K, but I don't know..I really don't think Lois is all that 'inferior' to Superman. Yeah, she ain't gonna be beating him upside the head with a rolling pin if he comes home late from a JLA aventure anytime soon, but I always thought she more then held her own against his heroic-ness.

Calling Trevor Wondy's Lois isn't THAT big of a mark against him. I agree that he is kind of a boring character and I don't have a super-high opinion of him, but I could see how he could work issue in and out as her romantic significant other...

 

[The Question]

None of what you talked about is the real Wonder Woman to me. Wonder Woman to me is what Marston did and that's it. I don't count any of the other stuff. For Wonder Woman to work, her man-or her woman, whoever it is, has to be inferior to her and dominated by her.

... why?

Wonder Woman's strip doesn't work unless it's written by a hardcore feminist, IMO. WMM was a one of a kind guy. Anyone else writing Wonder Woman has failed, it would be like having Jim Davis do Pogo.

There are lots of different kinds of feminists. You can be a hardcore feminist and not think it's okay for people to be in relationships where one person is inferior and is dominated because that's kind of messed up regardless of wether it's a man or a woman.

Because it is. It's really messed up and creepy.

People can accept Lois as being inferior to Superman because EVERYONE'S inferior to Superman.

I can't. I think it's messed up and creepy when it's written like that. Their relationship works when they're both equals in it because then it's not uncomfortable and horribly disturbing, and it's actually romantic and says a lot about both of them as characters and allows them to grow and show sides of themselves that would otherwise be hidden to the world and to the reader.

People accept Catwoman as being close to equal with Batman because part of Batman's charm is his supposed limitations. But not only Wonder Woman, but all superheroines, their civilian male romantic interests are rejected by comics fans, and only superheroes are acceptable mates for them. It's why Steve Trevor is judged boring, why Larry Lance is dead, why no one can even name the romantic interests for most superheroines like Ms. Marvel unless it's a superhero. It's why people wanted Helena Wayne with Dick Grayson instead of Harry Sims even though that's practically incest.

I'm really going to stand by my point that Steve Trevor is judged boring because he's actually just really boring. There's not a whole lot to him. He's a soldier, he loves America, he shoots things, and he flies planes. That's about it, other than being romantically interested in Diana. He really doesn't do a whole lot. He's just this guy who's kind of there.

I mean, maybe your right in that some writers being uncomfortable with him made them not want to do anything with him, so he was never developed into a more interesting character, but he still started off as being really boring and generic. Lois Lane had a personality that was more rounded and interesting when she first started, so I think Steve didn't come into the game with a whole lot going for him.

I also want to point out that Steve isn't the only love interest in comics I find boring and uninteresting. Just going by the Justice League, I really don't give a crap about Iris West or Carol Ferris. They're just really generic girlfriend characters. Hell, I'm not that interested in Mera either, but at least she has things to do in Aquaman's stories besides being his girlfriend. And she has all that dead baby angst so you can do stories about that sometimes. Like, it's really repetitive, but at least it's a thing that can be done.

My point is that my finding Steve Trevor boring has nothing to do with the fact that he's a dude. It's just because he's boring. He exists only to fill the generic love interest slot in Diana's supporting cast, just like Iris does for Barry and Carol does for Hal.

I do think Steve fits into Diana's story a lot worse than Iris does in Barry's or Carol does in Hal's, but that's because Diana's story is largely about independence. It starts with her leaving home to become her own person. I generally find that stories like that are hurt by adding a love interest. Take Star Wars for example, I think Star Wars would have turned out to be a weaker story if Leia hadn't turned out to be Luke's sister and they hooked up in the end, because it was Luke's story of self discovery. Now I'm not saying that you can't have a love interest in a story about someone going out into the world to be their own person, I guess what I'm saying is that that basic story doesn't call for a love interest, just adding a love interest to it doesn't improve it in any way. If you have a love interest in a story like that then he or she has to be a well developed character with his or her own story, and the relationship growing should be part of the journey at the center of the story.

And that's not the case with Steve. He's just a guy who flies planes and shoots Nazis and is pretty much Diana's boyfriend from the word "go."

If they gave Steve Trevor the personality of an actual human being and made the development of his and Diana's relationship directly tied into the story, then I'd probably like him.

But no one has ever done that, so I don't.

It's also why lesbian superheroines are easier for male fans to take unless they're homophobic idiots.

Maybe Wonder Woman just needs a girlfriend instead. Not that DC would be that brave.

Honestly, I think Wonder Woman works better single. As I've said, independence is a huge part of her narrative, as is her devotion to her mission. I'm not saying giving her a love interest could never work, I'm just saying that I've never really believed it any of the times people tried to give her one. Even when they teased the idea of pairing her with Batman, I never really thought them being a couple would work out for story reasons, it was more interesting because of the awkward sexual tension. She just seems like the kind of person who's super dedicated to her job and platonically loves everybody.

But I don't know maybe that's just how I read into it.

 

[Kurosawa]

I get what you're saying K, but I don't know..I really don't think Lois is all that 'inferior' to Superman. Yeah, she ain't gonna be beating him upside the head with a rolling pin if he comes home late from a JLA aventure anytime soon, but I always thought she more then held her own against his heroic-ness.

Lois does just fine, but as I said, every character gets a pass when compared to Superman.

Calling Trevor Wondy's Lois isn't THAT big of a mark against him. I agree that he is kind of a boring character and I don't have a super-high opinion of him, but I could see how he could work issue in and out as her romantic significant other...

Wondy's Lois is exactly what he is. But to most male readers, a normal human is only acceptable as the heroes GF, superheroines cannot be satisfied by civilian men. Steve Trevor, Larry Lance, Dick Malverne, any other civilian romantic interests-none of them are accepted by comics fans. They just aren't.

... why?



There are lots of different kinds of feminists. You can be a hardcore feminist and not think it's okay for people to be in relationships where one person is inferior and is dominated because that's kind of messed up regardless of wether it's a man or a woman.

Because it is. It's really messed up and creepy.

Because Wonder Woman as a character is about dominance and submission.

I can't. I think it's messed up and creepy when it's written like that. Their relationship works when they're both equals in it because then it's not uncomfortable and horribly disturbing, and it's actually romantic and says a lot about both of them as characters and allows them to grow and show sides of themselves that would otherwise be hidden to the world and to the reader.

Every character that Superman comes into contact with is inferior to him unless it's a story where he encounters God or the Spectre. Lois is amazing, and as close to a match for Superman as any human can be, but no mortal can be on Superman's level or is expected to. Every other character gets a pass next to Superman.

I'm really going to stand by my point that Steve Trevor is judged boring because he's actually just really boring. There's not a whole lot to him. He's a soldier, he loves America, he shoots things, and he flies planes. That's about it, other than being romantically interested in Diana. He really doesn't do a whole lot. He's just this guy who's kind of there.

I mean, maybe your right in that some writers being uncomfortable with him made them not want to do anything with him, so he was never developed into a more interesting character, but he still started off as being really boring and generic. Lois Lane had a personality that was more rounded and interesting when she first started, so I think Steve didn't come into the game with a whole lot going for him.

There isn't a single male civilian love interest that anyone gives a crap about, and Steve has more going for him than most of the others. It just doesn't work. You can name more civilian Spider-Man girlfriends that are liked by comics fans than male civilian romantic interests.

I also want to point out that Steve isn't the only love interest in comics I find boring and uninteresting. Just going by the Justice League, I really don't give a crap about Iris West or Carol Ferris. They're just really generic girlfriend characters. Hell, I'm not that interested in Mera either, but at least she has things to do in Aquaman's stories besides being his girlfriend. And she has all that dead baby angst so you can do stories about that sometimes. Like, it's really repetitive, but at least it's a thing that can be done.

Iris is an agreeable but unspectacular character. Carol Ferris is often written as a ***** and is somewhat compelling. Mera is awesome and is as cool a character as Aquaman himself, IMO. I don't have much interest in seeing Aquaman without her, much like I don't like the Hawks as much unless they are both in the series and they are together.

My point is that my finding Steve Trevor boring has nothing to do with the fact that he's a dude. It's just because he's boring. He exists only to fill the generic love interest slot in Diana's supporting cast, just like Iris does for Barry and Carol does for Hal.

He is somewhat boring but my point is no male civilian romantic interest has ever worked, and Trevor is the granddaddy of them all-it just doesn't go over.

I do think Steve fits into Diana's story a lot worse than Iris does in Barry's or Carol does in Hal's, but that's because Diana's story is largely about independence. It starts with her leaving home to become her own person. I generally find that stories like that are hurt by adding a love interest. Take Star Wars for example, I think Star Wars would have turned out to be a weaker story if Leia hadn't turned out to be Luke's sister and they hooked up in the end, because it was Luke's story of self discovery. Now I'm not saying that you can't have a love interest in a story about someone going out into the world to be their own person, I guess what I'm saying is that that basic story doesn't call for a love interest, just adding a love interest to it doesn't improve it in any way. If you have a love interest in a story like that then he or she has to be a well developed character with his or her own story, and the relationship growing should be part of the journey at the center of the story.

I think any male that is with Wonder Woman has to be inferior to her or she is no longer the main character of her story. Her hooking up with Supes or Bats automatically makes her nothing but the GF character. Kingdom Come is a great story, but Diana's only purpose in it was to be Superman's romantic interest and eventual mate.

And that's not the case with Steve. He's just a guy who flies planes and shoots Nazis and is pretty much Diana's boyfriend from the word "go."

If they gave Steve Trevor the personality of an actual human being and made the development of his and Diana's relationship directly tied into the story, then I'd probably like him.

But no one has ever done that, so I don't.

I don't think it can be done unless maybe they made him more dynamic, a clone of Steve Rogers.

Honestly, I think Wonder Woman works better single. As I've said, independence is a huge part of her narrative, as is her devotion to her mission. I'm not saying giving her a love interest could never work, I'm just saying that I've never really believed it any of the times people tried to give her one. Even when they teased the idea of pairing her with Batman, I never really thought them being a couple would work out for story reasons, it was more interesting because of the awkward sexual tension. She just seems like the kind of person who's super dedicated to her job and platonically loves everybody.

But I don't know maybe that's just how I read into it.

There is something to that, I agree. Keeping her unattached works because she's unattainable anyway. The same kinda goes for Power Girl.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Kurosawa is - as usual - right about this. What you think, TQ, is not really important. The creator made Wonder Woman's world like that and everyone should just embrace it or simply ignore the character. That someone is inferior and submissive to his mate might feel wrong to you -and it might be but Wonder Woman should be written like that, whether people like it or not since that is the "idea" behind it.

Just like Superman is disguised as Clark Kent. Some people don't like it. And yet, it's how he is supposed to be. You don't like it -> don't read it.

 

[Anubis]

I think the word inferior is the thing that's causing the problems. It's dominance, not inferiority. There's a difference.

One of the key aspects of BDSM is dominance and submissiveness. Some would say that the subs have the most power because they allow themselves to be dominated. In effect, Trevor was Marston. A man who allowed himself to be dominated by the ultimate woman.

As it has been said, he was a man's man. Tough. Brave. All that s**t. Yet he was submissive to Wonder Woman. Sure, she was far more powerful being, but their relationship is more than a simple brute strength thing. It's far more complicated than people give it credit. Personally, I think all of you missed the point.

 

[The Question]

Kurosawa is - as usual - right about this. What you think, TQ, is not really important. The creator made Wonder Woman's world like that and everyone should just embrace it or simply ignore the character. That someone is inferior and submissive to his mate might feel wrong to you -and it might be but Wonder Woman should be written like that, whether people like it or not since that is the "idea" behind it.

Just like Superman is disguised as Clark Kent. Some people don't like it. And yet, it's how he is supposed to be. You don't like it -> don't read it.

That's completely absurd.

First of all, if what I think isn't really important, then what the hell is the point of this thread?

Second of all, that argument could easily be used to squash any criticism of a work. "Oh, it's okay that Twilight has horrible morals and terribly written characters, because that's what the author intended, you should just accept it."

Third, the creator of a work is not infallible and isn't necessarily the best person to work on that creation or the greatest authority on it. Daredevil didn't become unique or interesting or the character that he is, really, until Frank Miller's run. The X-Men, especially Magneto, didn't take the form that most of us would recognize until Chris Claremont. Thor didn't really obtain the sword and sorcery aesthetic or themes of the relationship between fathers and sons that have dominated the book for most of it's run until Walt Simonson took over. Johnny Cash's version of Hurt? WAY better than Nine Inch Nails' version of Hurt, and they wrote it.

I'm not saying that the creator doesn't matter, because obviously they do. They created the damn thing. They set the pieces in motion. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're the ultimate authority on what they created, and it certainly does not mean that the opinions and ideas of people who come along later don't matter.

 

[Mystirious]

What I mean is, Diana's an ambassador to man's world, and that means she's going to have to deal with a lot of political ********, especially from the United States and the other G8 and NATO nations. Now, Diana's all about peace and truth and mercy and helping the helpless and tempering actions with wisdom. Not that she's not a warrior because she totally is, and I still think her being the member of the Trinity who's most okay with killing guys makes a lot of sense. But her patron god is Athena, who's the god of war and wisdom. She fights, but she still tries to not kill people if she doesn't have to and she tries to avoid fighting if she can. And she only fights as a means to help people who are in trouble. So she'd stand in opposition to a lot of stuff America does, like our foreign military presence, how we treat poor people, how we treat not-white people, how we treat gay people, basically how we treat people who don't look and act like your average host of the 700 Club, and the fact that she's such a huge feminist icon and a religious figure to some means that her badmouthing them actually would hurt them a little bit. In addition to that, she's into a lot of stuff that's not cool with most modern day Americans. She's bisexual, she's foreign, she's royalty, she's a pagan, she's into bondage even though they don't talk about that much anymore. Both socially a politically, she'd be considered "un-American" by a lot of people in power.

And that's why I love her

All of this stuff needs to be actually used more often though. Her bisexuality or in my opinion pansexuality needs to be made canon, all the kink and bondage stuff needs to be brought back and she needs to be vocally opposed to all the bigotry and anti woman garbage out there. The only writer to ever really do anything with some of this stuff post crisis is Rucka which is probably why every run after his has been really mediocre at best

Like Kurosawa has said before, the character needs to be marketed towards the lgbt and fetish communities. As a member of both, I know I would love her even more if she were

 

[Mystirious]

One of the key aspects of BDSM is dominance and submissiveness. Some would say that the subs have the most power because they allow themselves to be dominated. In effect, Trevor was Marston. A man who allowed himself to be dominated by the ultimate woman.

I think that bdsm relationships are mainly about trust. I submit to my girlfriend, trusting that she'll respect the boundaries set in place, that when/if the safe word is used she'll respect that as well. As a submissive I'm happy to give her power over me because I know she won't abuse that trust.

It's about power and dominance but its also equally about trust and respect. Real bdsm relationships definitely aren't like the kind you see in adult movies, except superficially

 

[The Morningstar]

It's funny seeing these old fossils stuck in the past, not accepting character development or progression if it is different to how they like them.

YES! All characters should stay exactly how they were when they were created!