State Your Opinion on A DC Character - Part 3

[The Question]

Or Darkseid.

It's far more personal between Superman and Lex. Anyone else doing it wouldn't seem right to me.

I never dug the Superman/Darkseid rivalry. I always liked Darkseid as a character who is a threat to the entire DCU. I mean, yeah, he could kill Superman, that's why he's such a threat, but making him and Superman rivals seems to bring him down to a level he should be above.

 

[Mystirious]

I liked it in the Superman animated series though

Michael Ironside made a great Darkseid

 

[Kurosawa]

It's far more personal between Superman and Lex. Anyone else doing it wouldn't seem right to me.

I never dug the Superman/Darkseid rivalry. I always liked Darkseid as a character who is a threat to the entire DCU. I mean, yeah, he could kill Superman, that's why he's such a threat, but making him and Superman rivals seems to bring him down to a level he should be above.

Not at all. Superman is and should be the greatest hero the universe has ever known, on a scale of power and importance just below that of the most powerful beings in the DC Multiverse. He should not be on just a Thor/Silver Surfer kind of level. A rivalry with Darkseid if anything should serve to show just how much of a threat Darkseid himself is.

 

[The Question]

I liked it in the Superman animated series though

Michael Ironside made a great Darkseid

I mean, I didn't mind it at all in the cartoon because the Fourth World storyline was so well done, but on the whole it's not my preference.

Not at all. Superman is and should be the greatest hero the universe has ever known, on a scale of power and importance just below that of the most powerful beings in the DC Multiverse. He should not be on just a Thor/Silver Surfer kind of level. A rivalry with Darkseid if anything should serve to show just how much of a threat Darkseid himself is.

I don't know, I guess I don't really see why that take on Superman is all that important. What makes him the greatest hero in the DCU to me is who he is as a person, his morals, his leadership skills, his idealism, his compassion, the trust and faith he puts in humanity's capacity to be good, and his dedication to always try to do what's right even in situations where doing so comes at a great cost or in some kind of no win scenario where the right answer isn't clear. It doesn't really matter to me if he's on equal footing in terms if power with the rest of the Justice League or not. And if he is, I think it kind of justifies the existence of the Justice League a little more, so I guess for that reason I prefer it. I mean he should be very powerful, because that sense of responsibility that comes with how much power he has is a big part of who he is, but if he's equal in terms of strength with Wonder Woman or the Martian Manhunter or hell, even Aquaman, and if he's significantly weaker than Darkseid, it just doesn't matter all that much to me.

And if Darkseid is going to be the biggest bad in the DC universe, a role I think suits him very well, then he should be the kind of threat that nobody, not even Superman, can stand up to entirely on their own. But I don't know maybe that's just me.

 

[Mystirious]

I mean, I didn't mind it at all in the cartoon because the Fourth World storyline was so well done, but on the whole it's not my preference.

That be fair enough

 

[The Question]

That be fair enough

Also Michael Ironside was the perfect Darkseid. Still the Darkseid voice in my head.

 

[Spike_x1]

I don't know, I guess I don't really see why that take on Superman is all that important. What makes him the greatest hero in the DCU to me is who he is as a person, his morals, his leadership skills, his idealism, his compassion, the trust and faith he puts in humanity's capacity to be good, and his dedication to always try to do what's right even in situations where doing so comes at a great cost or in some kind of no win scenario where the right answer isn't clear. It doesn't really matter to me if he's on equal footing in terms if power with the rest of the Justice League or not. And if he is, I think it kind of justifies the existence of the Justice League a little more, so I guess for that reason I prefer it. I mean he should be very powerful, because that sense of responsibility that comes with how much power he has is a big part of who he is, but if he's equal in terms of strength with Wonder Woman or the Martian Manhunter or hell, even Aquaman, and if he's significantly weaker than Darkseid, it just doesn't matter all that much to me.

And if Darkseid is going to be the biggest bad in the DC universe, a role I think suits him very well, then he should be the kind of threat that nobody, not even Superman, can stand up to entirely on their own. But I don't know maybe that's just me.

And as for the notion that Lex or another more established villain should have been the one to kill Superman, I actually like that it was Doomsday who did it. Personally, I liked the story idea of Superman versus this concentrated mass of rage and violence with absolutely no chance whatsoever that it could be talked down or reasoned with. Combine that with DD's raw strength and capacity for violence, Supes had to fight it to the death. Or he could've thrown Doomsy into space and called it a day.

Conversely, if it were Luthor or Darkseid or whoever else, there always would've been at least the possibility that Superman could give in to their demands or make them see the error of their ways. Doomsday's sole motivation of simply wanting to kill everything didn't allow for Superman to explore any of those options, which is why I liked the use of the walking plot device as the one who carried out Supes' death.

 

[The Question]

And as for the notion that Lex or another more established villain should have been the one to kill Superman, I actually like that it was Doomsday who did it. Personally, I liked the story idea of Superman versus this concentrated mass of rage and violence with absolutely no chance whatsoever that it could be talked down or reasoned with. Combine that with DD's raw strength and capacity for violence, Supes had to fight it to the death. Or he could've thrown Doomsy into space and called it a day.

Conversely, if it were Luthor or Darkseid or whoever else, there always would've been at least the possibility that Superman could give in to their demands or make them see the error of their ways. Doomsday's sole motivation of simply wanting to kill everything didn't allow for Superman to explore any of those options, which is why I liked the use of the walking plot device as the one who carried out Supes' death.

Well, I imagine that if it had been lex to do it, it would have been a plot specifically designed to kill Superman, so wether or not he decided to fight wouldn't have necessarily been relevant.

 

[Kurosawa]

I mean, I didn't mind it at all in the cartoon because the Fourth World storyline was so well done, but on the whole it's not my preference.



I don't know, I guess I don't really see why that take on Superman is all that important. What makes him the greatest hero in the DCU to me is who he is as a person, his morals, his leadership skills, his idealism, his compassion, the trust and faith he puts in humanity's capacity to be good, and his dedication to always try to do what's right even in situations where doing so comes at a great cost or in some kind of no win scenario where the right answer isn't clear. It doesn't really matter to me if he's on equal footing in terms if power with the rest of the Justice League or not. And if he is, I think it kind of justifies the existence of the Justice League a little more, so I guess for that reason I prefer it. I mean he should be very powerful, because that sense of responsibility that comes with how much power he has is a big part of who he is, but if he's equal in terms of strength with Wonder Woman or the Martian Manhunter or hell, even Aquaman, and if he's significantly weaker than Darkseid, it just doesn't matter all that much to me.

And if Darkseid is going to be the biggest bad in the DC universe, a role I think suits him very well, then he should be the kind of threat that nobody, not even Superman, can stand up to entirely on their own. But I don't know maybe that's just me.

Superman should be both and was both when he was relevant.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I prefer him on the Thor/Surfer level, personally. That's plenty powerful enough. He just gets goofy when he can do virtually anything.

 

[Spike_x1]

Well, I imagine that if it had been lex to do it, it would have been a plot specifically designed to kill Superman, so wether or not he decided to fight wouldn't have necessarily been relevant.

But if it had been Lex who did it through whatever hypothetical plan he came up with, it would raise the overhanging question of why he wouldn't just pull it off again after Supes came back. Proving that one side of the conflict is capable of outright winning the decades-long fight, but won't do it again when the hero is resurrected because it's the hero's book, could come dangerously close to derailing their ongoing dramatic rivalry. Maybe the writers could give Lex, let's say, a crisis of faith or a sense of purposelessness after killing Superman to explain why he wouldn't do it a second time when Clark resurrects himself, but that would defang Lex as being a threat to Supes in future stories.

Maybe there's another option that I haven't thought of that would allow Lex to be the killer without compromising him as a threat in future stories. I dunno.

Aside from that, there's the matter of simple preference between seeing a hero die fighting his arch-nemesis, or a hero dying against an enemy where the only option available was to fight to the death to save lives. I think that both of those can have plenty of potential for lots of dramatic weight, but I like the unstoppable force/immovable object mentality of the story that we ended up with, and the sense of inevitability building up to the fighters' end.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

just cause i have to throw my lightning in the ring
i think having a "mere mortal" beat the crap outta everybody and everything including Darkseid is the most ludicrous( and i dont mean the rapper!) thing ever in all of comics! Supes is the greatest hero ever!( it taken me years to understand that. i went the "cool bad boy" phase too!)i love the juggling planets one. that's what makes Luthor such a great foil is that with him able to do such things.Supes still cares about what people think of him.which Lex uses to his advantage. Like Zod in the flick Kryptonite isnt his weakness. its that he cares! Lex should have been the one to kill him with him coming back and and HEY B(*&^% I TOOK YOUR BEST SHOT AND your bald head ass still couldnt do the job! but that's just me!.. carry on!

 

[The Question]

But if it had been Lex who did it through whatever hypothetical plan he came up with, it would raise the overhanging question of why he wouldn't just pull it off again after Supes came back. Proving that one side of the conflict is capable of outright winning the decades-long fight, but won't do it again when the hero is resurrected because it's the hero's book, could come dangerously close to derailing their ongoing dramatic rivalry. Maybe the writers could give Lex, let's say, a crisis of faith or a sense of purposelessness after killing Superman to explain why he wouldn't do it a second time when Clark resurrects himself, but that would defang Lex as being a threat to Supes in future stories.

Maybe there's another option that I haven't thought of that would allow Lex to be the killer without compromising him as a threat in future stories. I dunno.

Well, I mean, it could have been a situational thing. Lex's plan could have hinged on several things happening all at once that were unlikely to coincide again in the future. Maybe it was some kind of convoluted plan that involved manipulating several people to coincide with specific events and take advantage of specific resources all at the same time. Maybe it involved creating or taking advantage of a situation that would force Superman to willingly sacrifice his life for the sake of others that would be difficult or impossible to replicate in the future, in part because he already did it once and it would be impossible to trick the same people the exact same way a second time. Maybe it's not even a plot to kill Superman, maybe it's some kind of take over the world plot and killing Superman was just a result of it and it was only possible because he got to a certain point in his take over the world plot where he had the resources to make that happen and lost those resources after the plot failed.

It seems to me like there are plenty of ways for Lex to kill Superman without diminishing the threat after he comes back.

 

[Anubis]

Well, this became an interesting convo.....but, we must press on.

Spoiler

Anybody see the Gay porn parody of Death of Superman? Wasn't pretty. It was like Passion of the Christ only it took place in HBO's OZ Don't drop the soap!

On we move to an introspective on those villainous physicians we all know and love. I'm talking evil super scientists people. To start us off:

T.O. Morrow

The man who gave us the Red Tornado.....and....the Red Torpedo.....and Red Volcano....Oh and he helped create Tomorrow Woman who was awesome in that one story I read with her/It in it.

 

[The Question]

I liked him 52 a lot. I liked that he was buddies with Will Magnus, like Magnus was his only friend who wasn't a crazy serial killer or a super villain, and that he actually kind of felt bad about teaming up with Sivana and Egg-Fu to corrupt him and drive him insane so he'd build doomsday weapons for Intergang during his semi-lucid manic episodes. That was cool.

And I also liked how he refused to help Ares create a Goddess of Genocide out of magic clay made from the dirt from Auschwitz and a bunch of other sites of horrible mass murders because he's Jewish.

Basically I get the feeling that Morrow is one of those bad guys who has a conscience and doesn't really want to hurt anybody but has dug himself too deep into his quests to get the things he wants and has screwed over so many people along the way that he just rationalizes away his guilt, and occasionally isn't able to do that so he takes little token actions to ease his guilt like helping Will to escape or standing up to Ares which just makes him able to carry on with being a selfish bastard the rest of the time easier. And I kind of like that. I'd like to see that explored a little more.

 

[Spike_x1]

Well, I mean, it could have been a situational thing. Lex's plan could have hinged on several things happening all at once that were unlikely to coincide again in the future. Maybe it was some kind of convoluted plan that involved manipulating several people to coincide with specific events and take advantage of specific resources all at the same time. Maybe it involved creating or taking advantage of a situation that would force Superman to willingly sacrifice his life for the sake of others that would be difficult or impossible to replicate in the future, in part because he already did it once and it would be impossible to trick the same people the exact same way a second time. Maybe it's not even a plot to kill Superman, maybe it's some kind of take over the world plot and killing Superman was just a result of it and it was only possible because he got to a certain point in his take over the world plot where he had the resources to make that happen and lost those resources after the plot failed.

It seems to me like there are plenty of ways for Lex to kill Superman without diminishing the threat after he comes back.

Even if Lex's killing of Superman all hinged on a number of things, no matter how random or unlikely those elements are to occur a second time, a guy as smart and manipulative as Lex would observe what worked that first time and find a way to make it happen (or replicate the effects) as many times as necessary until Superman finally stayed dead. Or he could come up with a new plan and stand just as much of a chance of being successful, because really, it doesn't even take a Lex Luthor-level genius plan to kill Superman. Just lure him into a sound/psychic/signal-proof room with kryptonite and lock the door. It doesn't need to be super complicated. Any plan will do. It's really the act of establishing that writers will let Lex kill Superman at all that would defang him as a future threat for readers.

From a storytelling and writer's perspective, once Lex proves himself capable of breaking free from their endless cycle and kills Superman once (whatever his plot or the random circumstances may be), there's absolutely no chance that he'll do it a second time because (in theory) writers won't want to repeat themselves. Sure, I know that the hero will come out on top eventually in almost any superhero story, so really, none of Supes' enemies are actually any sort of mortal threat to him in the long run, but I can always have the thought in the back of my mind that maybe the villain in question will finally get lucky this time. But if that enemy has already gotten lucky and killed him once, the possibility that that villain will ever do it again (and somehow make it more permanent than it was before) immediately disappears.

For example, I know that Superman is in absolutely no danger whatsoever of being killed by Doomsday ever again, and Batman likewise doesn't have to worry about getting his back broken by Bane. The rivalries between those characters have reached their climax. I don't want to be able to say that about Superman and Lex Luthor, unless the comic itself and its ongoing story ever comes to a final end. For however long their rivalry goes, I want to always have the thought that maybe Lex stands a chance of winning this time.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

dig Morrow. every since i saw Fritz lang "Metropolis" as a kid i have loved "mad scientist" types! it's probably was a good thing the internet wasnt around then or i could've gotten my hands on some weapons grade plutonium! and nobody does mad scientist truly "mad" like DC.the ones in marvel like "the mad Thinker" are like everything with those guys. too freaking dark and serious!this dudes seems to do &^%$ just for the kicks!!( like theres no right or wong with him!)oh i will build a twister making robot today just for the hell of it.that story with tomorrow woman when the robot sandman came back and gave her another hour of life was awesome! being "mad" just makes thing more interesting.Morrow's cool and those creepy robot monkeys on "young justice" and creepy cool!

 

[Mystirious]

I T O Morrow he was a lot of fun in 52 and i like his character that he's not really an evil guy he's just into doing all this crazy stuff for science

 

[SuperFerret]

I like Morrow, though I haven't read much with him.

I also like Doomsday in regards to the Death of Superman. There's something to be said about the fact that the most iconic invincible character is killed, not by his obscure (yet strangely common) weakness, but by being beaten to death. Sure, there's not much else to be said about Doomsday, but he was useful that one time.

 

[Mystirious]

With the Superman continuity being sort of rebooted now I would like to see someone do sonething fun with Doomsday

Give him an actual personality and a motivation. Like how Bane became such an interesting character after Knightfall. Do the same with Doomsday

They were both created to be plot devices but while Bane has become a complex, tragic three dimensional villain with heroic qualities Doomsday has just been stuck as a big alien who smashes stuff

 

[Panthro]

With the Superman continuity being sort of rebooted now I would like to see someone do sonething fun with Doomsday

Give him an actual personality and a motivation. Like how Bane became such an interesting character after Knightfall. Do the same with Doomsday

They were both created to be plot devices but while Bane has become a complex, tragic three dimensional villain with heroic qualities Doomsday has just been stuck as a big alien who smashes stuff

I second the notion.

 

[The Question]

With the Superman continuity being sort of rebooted now I would like to see someone do sonething fun with Doomsday

Give him an actual personality and a motivation. Like how Bane became such an interesting character after Knightfall. Do the same with Doomsday

They were both created to be plot devices but while Bane has become a complex, tragic three dimensional villain with heroic qualities Doomsday has just been stuck as a big alien who smashes stuff

They tried to do that in Smallville.

It didn't turn out very well. Mainly because they just turned him into a complete rip off of The Hulk. Also because it was on Smallville.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm kind of okay with Doomsday not having a personality. Just leave him as the unstoppable engine of destruction he's meant to be and only trot him out once every five years or so.

 

[Kurosawa]

I like TO Morrow, and he was actually one of the good things about 52.

 

[The Question]

I'm kind of okay with Doomsday not having a personality. Just leave him as the unstoppable engine of destruction he's meant to be and only trot him out once every five years or so.

I think I agree. I think he works best as that thing that everyone's scared of. Not because he's a brilliant mastermind or anything, just because he ****ing murders everything he comes across and doesn't do anything else. He should be like Cthullu or a bear or something.