Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[Flint Marko]

Just agree to disagree. I recall reading many Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (and Steve Ditko, and John Romita) stories. The Fantastic Four was an adventure story through space and time not unlike how high seas adventures were treated in the 19th century, Spider-Man was a college (more than high school, ironically) soap opera, as they veered more apart in later decades, X-Men was about moody teens feeling isolated. And they could switch gears from lighter, smaller stories, to going grim and macabre, or psychedelic in the case of Doctor Strange.

The movies play it much more safe than the comics ever did.

"Much more safe"? Hello hyperbole! The Lee/Kirby/Ditko/Romita stories all had their own approach depending on the story/character at hand, but there was an overarching house style that was felt on nearly every page and the "voice" never changed drastically, if at all. The movies do basically this exact thing, so I don't see how the movies are playing it "so much more safe" than the comics aimed at children that never strayed too far away from the status quo and rarely offered up anything super meaningful or dramatic beyond what was expected.

You'd think these complaints would be mitigated in the year that Marvel gave us a potential Best Picture contender with an overt political message that the world rallied around alongside a universe-shattering cliffhanger that people are still talking about months later followed up by a family comedy, but alas.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Eh, BP was important for representation on film, but it's not BP (Best Picture) material.

 

[Flint Marko]

There's a good chance it will get nominated and I think it deserves that. I was fine with Wonder Woman getting some Oscar attention as well, but I think Black Panther has a much better chance.

 

[Sithborg]

I think that they were toying with a new category means that, no, the Academy is not going to nominate it for best picture.

 

[Predator jp]

personally i didn't care for Black Panther much tbh.

 

[DACrowe]

"Much more safe"? Hello hyperbole! The Lee/Kirby/Ditko/Romita stories all had their own approach depending on the story/character at hand, but there was an overarching house style that was felt on nearly every page and the "voice" never changed drastically, if at all. The movies do basically this exact thing, so I don't see how the movies are playing it "so much more safe" than the comics aimed at children that never strayed too far away from the status quo and rarely offered up anything super meaningful or dramatic beyond what was expected.

You'd think these complaints would be mitigated in the year that Marvel gave us a potential Best Picture contender with an overt political message that the world rallied around alongside a universe-shattering cliffhanger that people are still talking about months later followed up by a family comedy, but alas.

I like Black Panther, but it ain't the best superhero movie ever, even if it's the first that gets nominated for Best Picture.

And it ain't hyperbole to be able to see that stories about the X-Men, especially once we get to the '70s and '80s, could be tonally lightyears apart from Spider-Man. And Spidey's stories could become somber or earnest, and didn't have to conform to the zippier tone of Avengers. I like these movies, but they do not take the chances of the comics. It's clear when Doctor Strange avoids the psychedelics, when the Civil War is more of a friendly rivalry, Spidey's life revolves around joining the Avengers, and Ragnarok is a lighthearted comedy.

And yes, I really liked Black Panther. And if it gets a Best Picture nom, besides the hype it will be due to the second act which is the biggest departure from the MCU formula this side of James Gunn. Most of the reviews as I recall, when talking about the conflict between Black Panther and Killmonger, and Killmonger's motives, used the words "Finally, a Marvel movie that's about something." And how refreshing it was.

P.S. I'll leave it here, because I know I just end up in the same debate with the same few folks, but I do like most of Marvel's output (last year was better than this year though overall). But to return to why this discussion began, some of us just don't like how it's becoming the only way to make superhero movies. And that is why they get some criticism. But any criticism of the MCU around here is treated with wary suspicion.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Neither Black Panther nor Wonder Woman were Best Picture material. Not even close. They are both enjoyable films, but there is nothing that really stands out about them in the genre above other good superhero films. TDK should have gotten one and I could have seen Logan potentially get one, but that's about it.

 

[Zarex]

BP's got an excellent chance of snagging one of the possible 10 slots. Tentpole superhero flicks face an uphill battle given their BO dominance, but Panther had a plot the Academy can latch onto - the disconnect between Africans in America and the Motherland - and gave us something we haven't seen before. As the first big budget action-adventure flick with a majority black cast, and a positive cultural moment in a country that sorely needed one, I would say it's pretty much a shoe-in.

 

[Boy Scout]

I love BP, but I agree that it isn't quite good enough to earn Best Picutre. I wouldn’t object to a nomination, but I think we all know it’ll win in that new category instead.

 

[Erzengel]

Apparently WB/Wan screened about 20 minutes of Aquaman for the press and it sounds promising. I've been really confident in that movie for quite some time now, even after that moderately wobbly first trailer, so I'm excited that the marketing is really about to kick into gear soon.

I really wish I could get excited about this but it's still Aquaman....Even if it was getting TWS type reviews, I've just never liked the character.

 

[Zarex]

P.S. I'll leave it here, because I know I just end up in the same debate with the same few folks, but I do like most of Marvel's output (last year was better than this year though overall). But to return to why this discussion began, some of us just don't like how it's becoming the only way to make superhero movies. And that is why they get some criticism. But any criticism of the MCU around here is treated with wary suspicion.

It shouldn't shock anyone that criticism of something that's super popular may garner a rebuke or seven. It seemed to me you relished your role setting all of us straight regarding the actual value of the MCU.

Neither Black Panther nor Wonder Woman were Best Picture material. Not even close. They are both enjoyable films, but there is nothing that really stands out about them in the genre above other good superhero films. TDK should have gotten one and I could have seen Logan potentially get one, but that's about it.

Plenty of films way worse than Wondy and Panther get nominated every year, especially now with the super sized ballot. Out of the 2017 nominees, La La Land was a cute musical rom com, Hacksaw Ridge was more Mel Gibson torture porn, Hidden Figures was uplifting but rang false (Thank god for heroic white man Kevin Costner!), and Manchester by the Sea was dreadful (BAHSTAHN GUY IS WICKED SAHD!). Of those films that I saw, I liked Arrival best. But neither of the two groundbreaking superhero flicks would be out of place in that crowd.

 

[2kt09]

Hacksaw Ridge was more Mel Gibson torture porn

You kiss your mother with that mouth?
That's a superhero story done effortlessly. The Oscars already said what it thinks through Birdman.
The action movies that get nominated are typically far & away from what I expect from this subgenre.

...Shape of Water is that genre blight that should make you think, k' screw it...give it to a superhero flick

 

[Sithborg]

BP's got an excellent chance of snagging one of the possible 10 slots. Tentpole superhero flicks face an uphill battle given their BO dominance, but Panther had a plot the Academy can latch onto - the disconnect between Africans in America and the Motherland - and gave us something we haven't seen before. As the first big budget action-adventure flick with a majority black cast, and a positive cultural moment in a country that sorely needed one, I would say it's pretty much a shoe-in.

See again where they were going to make a whole new category to put it in. Which is especially messed up once you really think about it.

 

[Brother Jack]

I liked Black Panther just fine, but there's no way it deserves a Best Picture nom. In fact, as much as I've generally enjoyed it, there is no film in the MCU that deserves a BP nomination, with the possible exception of Infinity War just because it was such an epic achievement in blockbuster filmmaking and the nomination would serve as an acknowledgement of the MCU as a whole ala Return of the King.

 

[KBX]

Here’s the thing. If the academy has 9 films they know they want to nominate they will do so. Now if all 9 films has no minorities or representations think there’s a good chance Black Panther tags the 10th nomination.

 

[Sithborg]

Except, they don't have to fill out all ten spots. See last year, with 9 nominations, but didn't fill the 10th with WW or Logan.

 

[2kt09]

I liked Black Panther just fine, but there's no way it deserves a Best Picture nom. In fact, as much as I've generally enjoyed it, there is no film in the MCU that deserves a BP nomination, with the possible exception of Infinity War just because it was such an epic achievement in blockbuster filmmaking and the nomination would serve as an acknowledgement of the MCU as a whole ala Return of the King.

That's a PGA you're looking for.

 

[KBX]

Except, they don't have to fill out all ten spots. See last year, with 9 nominations, but didn't fill the 10th with WW or Logan.

That’s beside the point. If there isn’t any minority movies on their list, they will do what they can to avoid another #oscarsowhite situation

 

[Iceman]

Except, they don't have to fill out all ten spots. See last year, with 9 nominations, but didn't fill the 10th with WW or Logan.

Ah, didn't know that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Infinity War basically played like a season finale. When people compare the MCU to TV, that's the movie they should be pointing their finger towards.

(I'm not saying being like TV is bad per se, but I don't think the Academy will go for IW. BP has wasy more chances and I don't think it actually has a chance at a Best Picture nomination).

 

[Greens]

I liked Black Panther just fine, but there's no way it deserves a Best Picture nom. In fact, as much as I've generally enjoyed it, there is no film in the MCU that deserves a BP nomination, with the possible exception of Infinity War just because it was such an epic achievement in blockbuster filmmaking and the nomination would serve as an acknowledgement of the MCU as a whole ala Return of the King.

The MCU as a whole isn't Oscar worthy either. The LOTR trilogy was.

 

[Fincher]

That’s beside the point. If there isn’t any minority movies on their list, they will do what they can to avoid another #oscarsowhite situation

The Academy isn't a bunch of Hollywood people sitting around going, "Okay, what movies are we gonna nominate this year?" They have voting ballots, and they're not going to know for sure what gets through and what doesn't. It's possible that many of them will want to vote for Black Panther for that reason, but if they wanted to ensure it gets in they'd want to put it above movies they actually like the most, not toss it in at the end.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I don't think "Oscar worthy" means that much. The Academy Awards is a competition in subjectivity and its worth shouldn't be placed beyond that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Black Panther doesn't have a chance of winning Best Picture (and I don't think it should) but that's not what matters. It has a good chance of being the first superhero movie to ever be nominated for that category, and that in of itself is pretty cool. Said the same thing about Wonder Woman last year.

And it ain't hyperbole to be able to see that stories about the X-Men, especially once we get to the '70s and '80s, could be tonally lightyears apart from Spider-Man. And Spidey's stories could become somber or earnest, and didn't have to conform to the zippier tone of Avengers. I like these movies, but they do not take the chances of the comics. It's clear when Doctor Strange avoids the psychedelics, when the Civil War is more of a friendly rivalry, Spidey's life revolves around joining the Avengers, and Ragnarok is a lighthearted comedy.

Where I took issue with your post is that I think it's a mistake to lump the bolded in with the Lee/Kirby/Ditko era of Marvel and saying Marvel isn't meeting that bar. I don't know when you've last read any of Lee's early runs, but they're quite different compared to what came in the 70's and 80's. The bullpen in the 60's were fairly consistent in giving each title their own "flavor" that still stuck closely to the Marvel house style. They were whizbang fun adventure titles with big personalities and big splash pages to boot. I think Marvel Studios has kinda nailed that, and I think it's a mistake to lump this era in with the more sophisticated, cerebral comics of the following decades once each character/title found their identities.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'd love to see Black Panther nominated for best picture, just cause I think the "Superhero movies did not reach those heights yet" is too strong an opinion.

Plenty of films way worse than Wondy and Panther get nominated every year, especially now with the super sized ballot. Out of the 2017 nominees, La La Land was a cute musical rom com, Hacksaw Ridge was more Mel Gibson torture porn, Hidden Figures was uplifting but rang false (Thank god for heroic white man Kevin Costner!), and Manchester by the Sea was dreadful (BAHSTAHN GUY IS WICKED SAHD!). Of those films that I saw, I liked Arrival best. But neither of the two groundbreaking superhero flicks would be out of place in that crowd.

That movie is genuinely awesome.