Superman vs. Captain Marvel

[Czar Colossus]

I really don't want to waste my time being overly arguementive, but what has actually been established is that Captain Marvel is Superman's only real rival in pure physical power. Superman is THE ONE that all others are measured against and to reiterate Cap is the only true rival he has. They are as different as they are alike in nature. That is what makes the dicotomy of these two characters so special.
In light of recent events though Cap may now be in another class!

 

[Memphis Slim]

Originally Posted by ibsisomis
Captian Marvel's powers are magically based. So I can actually see him smacking supes around. Even though I hate supes, I can see Captain Marvel beating his ash pretty easily. And I kinda agree that Juggy's powers are that he is immune to any physical damage. And by saying that he "shouldn't" be able to be hurt by Hulk. But that being said, I'm sure even Juggy's ability to take punishment has it's limits. I mean when he and Thor fought the 2nd time Thor actually put it on him there for a while. Even though to get the "W" he used his hammer to carry Juggy away into orbit.

I can't agree with that. It's magic that gives Cap his powers. But Cap doesn't actually "use" magic (like Dr. Fate or Zatanna etc..). He uses regular hay-makers and fisticups like Superman. But supes has other offensive powers, too. The only thing I can see is Cap being able to call down the Shazam bolt (which IS magic). But he runs a risk of Superman slapping his hand over his mouth, in his Billy form.

 

[Memphis Slim]

I really don't want to waste my time being overly arguementive, but what has actually been established is that Captain Marvel is Superman's only real rival in pure physical power. Superman is THE ONE that all others are measured against and to reiterate Cap is the only true rival he has. They are as different as they are alike in nature. That is what makes the dicotomy of these two characters so special.
In light of recent events though Cap may now be in another class!

Yeah.....if we're talking about the amped up white-haired Cap....he might have an edge.

 

[Czar Colossus]

I guess we'll see.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

And face it, he does beat Superman in Kingdom Come.

What? What part of "hands that can squeeze coal into diamonds crawl across human flesh" didn't you get? Superman is trying to talk the entire fight. Marvel is brainwashed and hitting him with all he's got until Superman gets pissed and yells "Enough", taking a lightning bolt and grabbing Marvel by the face, at which point, the writer makes it very clear he could pop his head if he wanted to. Superman then decides to free Marvel, letting him choose his next action. Which Kingdom Come were you reading? In your version does the kryptonite hurt Superman because you want it to?

 

[larryfilmmaker]

The truth is this. If you're biased, you'll choose your favorite. If you believe in the subtle themes instilled in the Superman lore, there's no way he could lose, even to an enemy powered by his very weakness. In some comics he's broken kryptonite chains, beaten Marvel in fights, and in the movie he's pushed a kryptonite island into the sky. He represents the unbeatable, all mighty power of GOOD. Sure, you might get mad and say "you can't defy logic just cuz he's Superman" but I think you're missing the point. Being an "unstoppable force of Good" IS what Superman is all about. Being the be-all end all superhero is what Superman just plain IS. Sure, no stats back this and he can't act like a God all of the time but when it comes down to it, Superman is SUPERMAN.

Now let's say you don't believe in the "between the lines" aspect of characters. The whole Superman being a "faith based" and unbeatable character doesn't make any LOGICAL sense. You believe in the cold hard stats like Superman is weak against magic and Marvel is magic based so it might have to go to Marvel. Realism, reality, right? Good. Now, Batman is dead because he got stabbed in the throat while patrolling the streets (he is, after all, only a man). Batgirl, Punisher, the X-Men, Nightwing, and the rest are all dead because the superpowered enemies got tired of messing around and decided to finally kill them all. I mean what REALLY stopped Bane from killing themt he whole time? Dark Phoenix just erased the X-Men from existance with a thought (she is, after all, the Goddess of Creation). Magneto used Wolverine as his own personal flying blender against his enemies. Oh, and Xavier finally said "**** it" and just erased the bad guys' minds all at once. FINALLY, characters are doing what they would REALLY do in real life! It's completely irrelevant and disloyal to the mythologies to not have certain respect for the icons, even if you don't like them.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

why exactly does everyone hate jplaya?

I thought it was JayDawg I was told to ignore? Are they the same guy?

 

[incubat]

^I don't know...all this happened so long ago

 

[Czar Colossus]

What? What part of "hands that can squeeze coal into diamonds crawl across human flesh" didn't you get? Superman is trying to talk the entire fight. Marvel is brainwashed and hitting him with all he's got until Superman gets pissed and yells "Enough", taking a lightning bolt and grabbing Marvel by the face, at which point, the writer makes it very clear he could pop his head if he wanted to. Superman then decides to free Marvel, letting him choose his next action. Which Kingdom Come were you reading? In your version does the kryptonite hurt Superman because you want it to?

Actually all that proves is that Superman can beat Billy Batson. Using the lightning against Superman was a neat plot device, but it was a disadvantage as much as an advantage. If Billy had remained Cap the two would still have been slugging it out after the bomb exploded amidst all those dead bodies with neither of them gaining anything. (Yes, I believe Cap would survive the blast. He died in his ordinary human form.)

 

[Toby_Temple]

The truth is this. If you're biased, you'll choose your favorite.

It seemed that you should follow your own advice.

If you believe in the subtle themes instilled in the Superman lore, there's no way he could lose, even to an enemy powered by his very weakness. In some comics he's broken kryptonite chains, beaten Marvel in fights, and in the movie he's pushed a kryptonite island into the sky. He represents the unbeatable, all mighty power of GOOD. Sure, you might get mad and say "you can't defy logic just cuz he's Superman" but I think you're missing the point. Being an "unstoppable force of Good" IS what Superman is all about. Being the be-all end all superhero is what Superman just plain IS. Sure, no stats back this and he can't act like a God all of the time but when it comes down to it, Superman is SUPERMAN.

Using that logic of yours then Superman can win against Imperiex anytime.

Now let's say you don't believe in the "between the lines" aspect of characters. The whole Superman being a "faith based" and unbeatable character doesn't make any LOGICAL sense. You believe in the cold hard stats like Superman is weak against magic and Marvel is magic based so it might have to go to Marvel. Realism, reality, right? Good. Now, Batman is dead because he got stabbed in the throat while patrolling the streets (he is, after all, only a man). Batgirl, Punisher, the X-Men, Nightwing, and the rest are all dead because the superpowered enemies got tired of messing around and decided to finally kill them all. I mean what REALLY stopped Bane from killing themt he whole time? Dark Phoenix just erased the X-Men from existance with a thought (she is, after all, the Goddess of Creation). Magneto used Wolverine as his own personal flying blender against his enemies. Oh, and Xavier finally said "**** it" and just erased the bad guys' minds all at once. FINALLY, characters are doing what they would REALLY do in real life! It's completely irrelevant and disloyal to the mythologies to not have certain respect for the icons, even if you don't like them.

Irrelevant. Let me reveal to you how pathetic that reasoning is.
If we all accept that "good will always triumph over evil" as the most acceptable reason and argument to end "versus" debates, then any villain regardless of how powerful they compared to any hero, that villain will certainly lose.

But what happends if its hero vs hero? Who would win?

That is why we need to go out of what comic writers do most of the time and take into consideration reality. Wolverine could never win against Mephisto no matter how good Wolverine is. Same with Xavier against Thanos. There is no argument there.

But when it comes to two equals like Superman and Captain Marvel, saying the Superman wins because he's Superman is the dumbest reason there is.

 

[Toby_Temple]

What? What part of "hands that can squeeze coal into diamonds crawl across human flesh" didn't you get? Superman is trying to talk the entire fight. Marvel is brainwashed and hitting him with all he's got until Superman gets pissed and yells "Enough", taking a lightning bolt and grabbing Marvel by the face, at which point, the writer makes it very clear he could pop his head if he wanted to. Superman then decides to free Marvel, letting him choose his next action. Which Kingdom Come were you reading? In your version does the kryptonite hurt Superman because you want it to?

You would say that in Kingdom Come Cap was brainwashed so Superman was holding back. The same can be said when Superman was possessed by Eclipso. Superman was more ruthless than ever and Captain Marvel was also holding back and still was able to went toe-to-toe with Supes.
Cap only lose because he chose not to kill Supes.

 

[Czar Colossus]

Very good point; I believe that happened on two different occasions.

 

[Toby_Temple]

You are correct. One ended with Eclipso(in possession of Superman's body) deciding to end the fight and went away and the other is when Spectre exorcised Eclipso out of Superman's body or was it because of the diamond.

 

[wootbaby]

the true answer is that power levels are not set in stone. being a stupid medium for boys with no girlfriends there's really no legitimacy to how strong characters are in comics and writers have wide discretion on the power levels of the characters.

superman's own powers vary WIDELY depending on silver age, golden age etc. some writers believe he can move planets in the 70s yet in the 80s he can barely survive a direct thermonuclear hit. in some comics he is a force of nature, more powerful than suns yet in others he's barely more powerful than other superpowered humans.

listen to this this kid:

Superman has even mentioned to the side in his own comics that sometimes he holds back too much, hence the ability for folk in his power range to tag him.

that was something one writer pulled out of his ash because it sounds cool (probably inspired by Byrne's throwaway gag in 80s MOS where Superman works out with 10lb dumbells cuz he has no idea what is appropriate for puny humans and LL remarks it's lighter than even what she uses) . there's 0 evidence that versus brainiac, powered up luthor or ANYONE that superman was holding back in the 80s 70s 60s 50s at ALL. the only way this even has a way of being canon is RETCON. if anything it's probably a statement that superman relies TOO MUCH on brute strength and versus like-powered opponents his fighting skills are actually subpar and underdeveloped

versus Captain Marvel?

the TRUE answer of Cap versus Superman is that they are PARITY. Why? because they are designed to be that way. Captain Marvel and Superman share a developmental history going back to the very beginning in 1939. Cap was created based on the POPULARITY of Superman but he was a superior character and many changes were made to Superman including super flight, intellect, superior morality, increased strength, heat vision, cold breath, better opponents in DIRECT response to Capt. Their developmental history is directly tied. they were created to be complementary characters so it is IMPOSSIBLE that they are anything but very equally matched.

you CAN argue superman versus hulk or batman v superman... because they are separate characters created for different niches in the comics market. superman and captain marvel are like coke and pepsi... want to argue who is MORE COLA? slightly different flavor but basically the same deal.

In terms of strength they are equal (not that strength is the determinate factor... you can easily argue that Black Adam or Doomsday are STRONGER than both) but equal also in terms of morality, wisdom, willpower, speed, intellect etc. The primary difference between the 2 is that Superman is vulnerable to magic while Cap is not (and potentially could WIELD magic as in cast spells although he chooses not to). Superman has access to high tech (which Cap COULD master with his Wisdom of Solomon but chooses not to... perhaps because of the wisdom of Solomon???). and Capt is vulnerable while powered down. it's actually ironic... superman has been powered UP over and over through the years in a desperate attempt to be "the strongest in comics. while Capt has in fact been powered DOWN in a humble attempt to be less god-like. for example Cap used to do things like hypnotize and mentally control weak minded opponents (like the Force only 40 years earlier) and actually as the heir to Shazam Capt could potentially become thousands or MILLIONS of times more powerful (he's the world's mightiest MORTAL but he could become a true IMMORTAL)

These days many writers write Cap as slightly more powerful in NET (as Ross did in KC. The magic lightning gag became popular as a concept among geeks in the late 80s and Ross used that in KC) but that's largely a reaction to threads like this... to be contrary to kids who automatically think 'SUPERMAN IS THE STRONGEST THEIR IS" without actually educating themselves on Captain Marvel at all. basically the 2 characters are very very very closely related in a lot of ways... you'd probably have to go back to all those Captain America clones in the 40s to get as similarly powered and designed characters.

 

[wootbaby]

Actually all that proves is that Superman can beat Billy Batson. Using the lightning against Superman was a neat plot device, but it was a disadvantage as much as an advantage. If Billy had remained Cap the two would still have been slugging it out after the bomb exploded amidst all those dead bodies with neither of them gaining anything. (Yes, I believe Cap would survive the blast. He died in his ordinary human form.)

ross and waid ripped this directly off Alan Moore's ToSH. (which is cheesy but okay since DC owned the rights to it). no one can beat cap marvel so martian manhunter kills BB while his mouth is covered. the lightning gag itself was kicking around for a decade in newsgroups and BBS before there even was an internet

you'll choose your favorite.

this is the truest quote in here. they're basically the same deal... it's like arguing who'd win Doc Savage or Batman? batman writers ripped off so much crap from Doc that they're basically the same character in strength and talents by now... how the crap can you distinguish who's stronger or smarter? or the Shadow versus Batman... one is magic based one science based... but the core of the amalgamated character is such that they specialize in duex ex machina (aka batman's "prep time" argument v superman). compensating for their own weaknesses and opponents' strengths is the CORE of the character it's not like batman wouldn't be able to find a way to combat the Shadow and vice versa.

it's a wash so you pick the one you like

 

[incubat]

^you make very good arguments, but you should remember that superman was actually depowered back in the first crisis because he was way too powerful and it became kind of boring that no one could beat him. meaning they both were powered down.

 

[incubat]

oops, double post

 

[Mutagen]

I vote for Superman.

 

[Kitsune]

Hmmm lets see how that would play out

Here we go.

 

[Mutagen]

That just oozes hilarity.

 

[Kenda Man]

ross and waid ripped this directly off Alan Moore's ToSH. (which is cheesy but okay since DC owned the rights to it). no one can beat cap marvel so martian manhunter kills BB while his mouth is covered. the lightning gag itself was kicking around for a decade in newsgroups and BBS before there even was an internet

That sounds pretty interesting. Is that Alan Moore's Twilight plot? I would like to read more about it.

I'm biased in that I like Captain Marvel more. I think I would be able to relate to him more mainly because Billy Batson is human and has a sense of innocence and purity to him. He also has that humility that he does make mistakes. A great rendition of Captain Marvel can be in Dini's Shazam! Power of Hope and in Johns' JSA Captain Marvel when interacting with Stargirl. I thought that was an awesome take on how awkward it would be for Billy to be on JSA as Captain MArvel and to have a secret relationship with Stargirl and only the two of them know Billy is Captain Marvel. The whole JSA were freaked out about it being Captain Marvel, a 35 year old guy dating Stargirl, who was around 16 years old. But Billy knew if he revealed he was really 16, then all of the members of JSA would not respect him as they do in his Captain Marvel form.

Superman will always be the role model in which superheroes look up to. He just seems like he makes no mistakes and that he is more cold and calculated when compared to Captain Marvel, which was seen heavily in "First Thunder."

 

[javphonic]

Superman, he's SUPERman

 

[Czar Colossus]

Loved First Thunder! That's the relationship that Cap should have with Superman. It makes total sense for Superman to be a mentor figure for Billy in his superhero exploits. I love that Clark felt a responsibility to help Billy, but nothing has been done with this, and in light of recent events it doesn't seem like anything will. (I'm still hoping.)
And at the risk of sounding totally stupid, what is ToSH?

 

[Kitsune]

That just oozes hilarity.

Issue #4 of Mad Magazine.

 

[fifthfiend]

coke and pepsi... want to argue who is MORE COLA?

COKE, *******!

**** you and your blue-canned pisswater!