MCU Fight: Captain Marvel Vs. Hela

To start, Thor's lightning did incapacitate her, albiet very briefly. These fights are to KO. If she's KO'd even if its just for a minute, and she recovers fine after a minute, its still a loss, using standard battle rules.

Mean no disrespect, but this take is full of bias. For the tier rankings, we use the same battles rules on most battle forums, feats > everything. Thor was able to fight a losing fight against Hela after his power up.

Thor's lightning was effective against Hela, she just healed from it quickly. It was a solid minute o two before she showed back up. In theory, he could knock her off her feet with the lightning, hit her again, and then pummel her with storm breaker. Thor got a VERY evident, quantifiable power up in IW. It doesn't matter if there aren't canon explanations for it. Thor has a greater strength feat, and arguably equal durability feats to Hela. Saying She was stronger and more durable (which she WAS) does not make a difference, because since then, Thor has had new feats that are superior to Hela's. Not to mention, Stormbreaker's MacGuffin like essence in that movie, and overpowering the blasts of the IG (even though the Russos confirmed it wasnt a full blast), puts IW Thor above Hela.

Same with CM. She was impressive, but feats win out here. Disagreeing doesn't make it wrong.

Hela absolutely does NOT meet our criteria for cosmic tier. When I initially typed up the tier rankings, each tier had a brief explanation as to what the minimum and maximum power displays were for each tier. Based off our tier system here, they way we've constructed it for a year and a half, and the format we used, It seems ironically that Hela is the one who is getting overrated here by a few specific posters within the context of the ranking system BT, Surfer and I created.

Surtur was below two or 3 characters within the cosmic tier, Hela couldn't do anything to him and he one shot her...a mid-low cosmic tier character. She belongs no where near the cosmic tier and she is accurately ranked.
Dude, all these takes are full of bias. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. You can claim it's "feat-based" all you want, but the interpretations of those feats are WILDLY subjective. Obviously, based on the debates. It is my opinion, as well as apparently that of others here, that this board and these polls have been very biased in favor of Thor in terms of interpreting power displays, and we're interpreting the same feats as everyone else. Which is how it turned into a Thor vs. Hela debate.

And no one would even be surprised to see Hela show up in Endgame totally unharmed, which speaks to the level of her power, imo.
 
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Dude, all these takes are full of bias. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. You can claim it's "feat-based" all you want, but the interpretations of those feats are WILDLY subjective. Obviously, based on the debates. It is my opinion, as well as apparently that of others here, that this board and these polls have been very biased in favor of Thor in terms of interpreting power displays, and we're interpreting the same feats as everyone else. Which is how it turned into a Thor vs. Hela debate.

And no one would even be surprised to see Hela show up in Endgame totally unharmed, which speaks to the level of her power, imo.

I hear you. But, of course I can claim that, two other posters and I CREATED this system Flickchick. And Of COURSE we took biases into consideration, we had discussions headed by Surfer about this over year ago when ranking characters, this is why we use polls, color coding, and the votes available to view. We made contingencies. Characters need feats, and need to battle certain characters within their tiers to move around - we dont just *place a character* in a tier. There were a number of things we put into place to try to minimize the impact a variable such as bias had over a particular character. Color coding, and vote viewings and few others allow this. Statistics are always full of bias, but we've had enough sample sizes to at least find the votes reliable.

With sample sizes like this, the measures needed to quantify the impact such biases have statistically on these polls, as you claim, would take A LOT of number crunching, which isn't something any of us would be prepared to do. But we did what we had to do - and this is coming from a perfectionist clinician who has also worked in research and statistics - the methodology needed to validate your bias claim - while legitimate - is very real, and would need data to prove...attempting to do that poses ATLEAST some risk..the same as not doing it.

But mind this. My point seems to have been missed. It is that, we created a system that the three of us worked very hard on to create. Each tier has criteria that we set, and a battle system which considers biases we use to rank and place them. If ALL takes are biased, as you state, it makes it even easier. Again, the characters are accurately placed within the context of the system BT, Surfer and I worked very hard on to create. If you want to disregard the methodology we used to create this project because you feel it doesn't take biases that inaccurately ranks a character into consideration that's fine. But again, trying to explain it away doesn't change the fact that these characters are accurately ranked within the context of the ranking system we created.

However, I don't want this to get heated, or escalated. We can agree to disagree on this matter and move onto the next battle. Good to see you again, I haven't been around in a while.


Also, BT, thank you again for really taking the reigns here in Surfer's and my more recent again absense. After recovering from Guillian Barre, I have been very busy with grad school, reapplying to a different school actually, so I've been occupied with GRE studying, and just started a new job!

I still would like to post battles, but it will probably be a little while before I am able to again. But I havent forgotten and I still think about it every weekend ;)
 
My friend, I respect and appreciate all the hard work you guys put into this. Truly, I do. But at the end of the day, what you've created are still opinion polls that are at the mercy of the whims and leanings of the Hype. And I've been a member of the Hype (and as a mod, an obligated observer of all corners of it) to know that the Hype has some specific biases that are not necessarily reflective of other regions of the web or general public perception. It doesn't degrade anything you all have done to acknowledge that, nor does it make any kind of results of these polls conclusive. It just makes them for fun, which is what this is. Fun we shall continue to have!

And it is good to see you as well, glad to know you haven't abandoned us entirely. ;)
 
IMO Thor's durability feat in IW ( getting crispy fried by a star) doesn't equal Hela's durability feats ( virtually ignoring every attack thrown at her and instantly recovering). There's nothing to suggest he got any sort of inherent power up during Ragnarok other than a much more powerful weapon.

But to keep things on track what durability feats does CM have ?

Remind me folks other than the Skrull stunner ( which Ko'd her) and some punches from Yon-Rogg ( even with the power gauntlets) does she actually take any direct hits from anything ? She caught the missile but didn't really take a hit from it.

We've seen Thor get nearly killed and severely beaten and still bounce back bloodied but ready to fight....IMO that's more impressive than anything CM did. Wonder Woman took harder hits from Doomsday than anything CM took ( although in a much much crappier movie, so advantage CM there), I don't know why they 're so precious about CM - or am I remembering wrong ?

CM also has zero durability feats vs edged weapons whereas Thor has survived the blades of the Goddess of death - again, bloodied but ready to keep fighting.

Thor takes this........but it's totally the wrong thread. :woo:

I mean, Hela takes this. :awesome:
 
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Remind me folks other than the Skrull stunner ( which Ko'd her) and some punches from Yon-Rogg ( even with the power gauntlets) does she actually take any direct hits from anything ? She caught the missile but didn't really take a hit from it.
She took several hits from Kree missiles on her flight up. Was unphased by those. Her getting "KO'd" was when she was wearing a power-inhibitor, so that wouldn't count any more than Thor getting KO'd on Sakaar.
 
Stormbreaker is MORE of a cheat weapon because it doesn't have any real established rules (yet). People here claim it's more powerful, but other than adding the Bifrost capabilities, there's very little basis for that beyond, "it can withstand the Gauntlet and stab Thanos!" Which, honestly tells us very little other than it's about as indestructible as a weapon can be. But an indestructible axe hardly puts Thor in another power bracket. The other stuff Thor was doing with it could've been done with (and some even without) Mjolnir. So I'm with @metaphysician in not seeing the great "power-up" y'all go on about.

That's fine
 
While Stormbreaker may be powerful enough to harm Hela Thor's durability and strength haven't changed since the end of Ragnarok, although at last he's got some impressive feats.

I maintain the opinion that we can't say that for sure. Stormbreaker healed Thor from the brink of death to full power, so if that is something the weapon can do in general he'd have a similar healing factor to Hela. I don't think they will keep using that as it can make the character too powerful, but it did happen in IW nonetheless and if it never happens again it will feel a bit inconsistent if not explained.

And no one would even be surprised to see Hela show up in Endgame totally unharmed, which speaks to the level of her power, imo.

I actually would, seeing how we see her look pretty tattered when she arrives from Hel and it's first when she sets foot on Asgard that she immediately restores to her true self. Not that she wasn't incredibly powerful before that though, but her near invincible status is tied to Asgard.
 
I noticed Thor being more powerful, but not to the level of Hela or anything. Hela just was basically unaffected by just about any type of damage and healed in seconds. Yeah, Thor was healed when he got Stormbreaker, but he was never stabbed or anything after, so to assume he has "insta-heal" is faulty. He never did prior, so I doubt he does now.
 
I noticed Thor being more powerful, but not to the level of Hela or anything. Hela just was basically unaffected by just about any type of damage and healed in seconds. Yeah, Thor was healed when he got Stormbreaker, but he was never stabbed or anything after, so to assume he has "insta-heal" is faulty. He never did prior, so I doubt he does now.

I have to assume that you're responding to my post even though you didn't quote me, as I was the one talking about healing. I clearly didn't say that Thor has a healing factor now. In fact I said that I expect them not to go that way, but it would require an explanation why as Stormbreaker healed mortal wounds like nothing in IW. If it heals in some cases but not others the rules are hard to follow. My post was also an argument against an clear assumption, while I said that we don't know yet.

That Thor didn't heal prior to Stormbreaker isn't a relevant argument in my view though. IF he's healed by Stormbreaker and it's a power he now has then he obviously wouldn't use that power before he got the axe.
 
I have to assume that you're responding to my post even though you didn't quote me, as I was the one talking about healing. I clearly didn't say that Thor has a healing factor now. In fact I said that I expect them not to go that way, but it would require an explanation why as Stormbreaker healed mortal wounds like nothing in IW. If it heals in some cases but not others the rules are hard to follow. My post was also an argument against an clear assumption, while I said that we don't know yet.

That Thor didn't heal prior to Stormbreaker isn't a relevant argument in my view though. IF he's healed by Stormbreaker and it's a power he now has then he obviously wouldn't use that power before he got the axe.

Mjlonir healed Thor in the 1st movie the same way Stormbreaker did, so I see it as no different. 1 time thing.
 
Mjlonir healed Thor in the 1st movie the same way Stormbreaker did, so I see it as no different. 1 time thing.

That's been discussed earlier in the thread. It wasn't Mjolnir itself, he was healed by having his godly essence returned to him and Odin had just happened to have locked it away in Mjolnir. It's also a very different scenario as in Thor he was only dying because he had been turned into a mortal. In IW he's at the peak of his power (at least up until that point) and isn't healed by having part of himself returned to him.
 
That's been discussed earlier in the thread. It wasn't Mjolnir itself, he was healed by having his godly essence returned to him and Odin had just happened to have locked it away in Mjolnir. It's also a very different scenario as in Thor he was only dying because he had been turned into a mortal. In IW he's at the peak of his power (at least up until that point) and isn't healed by having part of himself returned to him.

Right, and it appears he did gain more power through Stormbreaker in a similar manner. But I see no reason to assume he got Hela's style healing powers. Likely just an increase in his already existing abilities and can now summon the bifrost.
 
Right, and it appears he did gain more power through Stormbreaker in a similar manner. But I see no reason to assume he got Hela's style healing powers. Likely just an increase in his already existing abilities and can now summon the bifrost.

And again, I didn't say he was healing now. I argued the notion that his durability hasn't changed since we don't know what Stormbreaker means in that regard yet. Does he heal? Is he so durable that he could just stand in the blast of the star now? Is he just like before and the healing in IW is just an unexplained one-time event? My point is that we don't know.
 
How did you like the film?

I liked it a lot, but I didn't love it. I really enjoyed the performances and the characters, but felt that the direction was perhaps a little lacking. Overall, I thought it felt more like a phase one movie than a phase three movie, not that there's anything wrong with that of course, but I just didn't quite feel it was on the same level as other recent MCU solo films such as Ragnarok and Black Panther. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the Russo's do with Carol in Endgame though. :up:

And Thor can block her blades, as he showed in the Rainbow Bridge battle.

Yeah, he can block one or two at a time, but as already pointed out in this thread, Hela was being double teamed in that scene on the Rainbow Bridge so her attention was being divided between Thor and Valkyrie who were both attacking her simultaneously. If she was against Thor one on one, and therefore was less distracted and she decided to launch hundreds of blades at him in one go (like she did in her battle against the Valkyries), are you seriously telling me Thor could dodge and block all of them? Also, what if she decided to create a giant structure out of the earth like she did at the end of Ragnarok? Using that form of attack, she would crush or at least severely incapacitate him long enough to then make the killing blow. Look at how massive Prime Surtur was, he dwarfed even the mountains and Hela managed to both create and launch structures against him that were massive enough to make even him stumble slightly, they must have been skyscraper sized to put that into perspective. If Hela started launching structures as massive as that at Thor from a distance, what chance would he really have to get close enough to her to use Stormbreaker against her?

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In the Throne room fight Hela pretty much owns Thor, he gets in the first hit - which does nothing and then she's blocking the spear with her bare hands then throwing him around, slashing hims and cutting out his eye and then gloating while he's on his knees. She's got time to quip and be nasty to him and then lifts him up with one hand.

Yep, and it's pretty clear that Hela isn't even really trying in that scene, look at how blase she acts when she slices Thor's eye out, she's just laughing and mocking him and doesn't look at all phased while he's near enough putting his full strength into fighting her. She's toying with him, just like a cat sometimes plays with a mouse before killing it. She wants to make him suffer in particular because he's the golden child that replaced her, not only as Odin's first born but also as the heir to the throne, so she's deliberately keeping him alive so he can witness her kill and subjugate the people of Asgard as a punishment. Look at the next scene where she has him completely at her mercy on the palace balcony, she could have killed him straight away but she didn't, she was making him watch as Fenris and her armies wrought destruction on Asgard, not only as a punishment but as a show of her superior power over him.

So yeah, this is still OT but I maintain that Hela would beat Thor plus Stormbreaker, so she'd clearly beat Captain Marvel too. :oldrazz:
 
Yeah, he can block one or two at a time, but as already pointed out in this thread, Hela was being double teamed in that scene on the Rainbow Bridge so her attention was being divided between Thor and Valkyrie who were both attacking her simultaneously. If she was against Thor one on one, and therefore was less distracted and she decided to launch hundreds of blades at him in one go (like she did in her battle against the Valkyries), are you seriously telling me Thor could dodge and block all of them?

No, but I could just as easily ask whether or not Hela could react if Thor decides to blanket the whole battlefield in lightning and turn Hela into a lightning rod. Difference is, lightning travels far faster than Hela's blades.

As Jaqua pointed out, the lightning might not have killed or seriously injured Hela, but it did temporarily incapacitate her. The balcony blast took her offscreen for over two minutes during the Immigrant Song scene, while the blast on the Rainbow Bridge, incapacitated her for over a minute. Thor only needs her to be incap'd for a couple of seconds to take her head off with Stormbreaker.

Is there any particular reason why Thor can't instantly call down a lightning bolt like this to incapacitate her?

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And then follow it up with a Stormbreaker blow to the neck?

Also, what if she decided to create a giant structure out of the earth like she did at the end of Ragnarok? Using that form of attack, she would crush or at least severely incapacitate him long enough to then make the killing blow.

Those giant spikes looked way too slow and cumbersome to be of any use against a human sized opponent. There's a reason why she only used them against Surtur.

Look at how massive Prime Surtur was, he dwarfed even the mountains and Hela managed to both create and launch structures against him that were massive enough to make even him stumble slightly, they must have been skyscraper sized to put that into perspective.

I agree that those things could probably kill Thor in one shot, but I just can't see Hela tagging him with them, given that IIRC, it took her a while to materialise them (longer than her regular blades) and thus leaving her vulnerable and she was also unable to throw more than one at a time.

If Hela started launching structures as massive as that at Thor from a distance, what chance would he really have to get close enough to her to use Stormbreaker against her?

He could just rain down lightning to destroy them before she can throw them or even in mid-air. After all, her blades might be very sharp, but they aren't exactly very durable given that Skurge was able to shred them with a pair of M16s from Tex-Ass.

BTW, I'm not denying Hela's (obvious) physical superiority here. I just think that Stormbreaker gives Thor the edge he needs to overcome his other disadvantages. In a bare-knuckle cage fight without any weapons, Hela would obviously rip Thor a new one.
 
@Spider-Fan So you think Captain Marvel can beat Hela?

How do you think the fight will play out?
 
I actually suspect that Thor *could* "block" the "giant storm of blades" attack. . . but he'd need to do so by basically setting up a wall of lightning of his own. Which is to say, he'd need to put all his effort into defense, and then hope that he doesn't get nailed by a single, more targeted blade that punches through said shield.
 

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