Surely Harry should save Peter because he's like his brother?

[pjspider1C]

Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with Bernard?

In SM2, Bernard tells Harry, "Your father only obsessed about his work." To which Harry replied, "Goodnight, Bernard." Harry wouldn't listen to Bernard before because he was consumed by revenge - which just so happens to be a major theme in Spider-Man 3. When Bernard comes forth in Spider-Man 3, Harry has all but hit rock bottom and is now finally able to listen. But he needed to hear the truth from someone other than Peter Parker. He needed to hear it from someone he trusted. And the only person he trusted was Bernard.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I had no problem with Bernard. I can see where people would, but I think it makes sense.

 

[I7eIVIoNBoY]

i didnt have a problem either..

i think ppl hated it so much cuz it was soo outta the blue

 

[pjspider1C]

^^ Agreed. And heaven forbid movies catch us off-guard...

 

[DACrowe]

I agree that Harry should have had another confrontation with Norman his father and realize does he want to be "Like YOUR FATHER" as the ghost would tell him or be loyal to his best friends who are in danger.

HIs showing up would have been better then.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

i didnt have a problem either..

i think ppl hated it so much cuz it was soo outta the blue

It's not because it caught people off-guard, it's because it's dramatically weak.

If Raimi had established early on in the film, or maybe even in Spidey 2, that Bernard knew but was cautious about telling Harry, then it may have worked. But to have him suddenly appear and solve the problem between Harry and Peter is inept.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I agree that Harry should have had another confrontation with Norman his father and realize does he want to be "Like YOUR FATHER" as the ghost would tell him or be loyal to his best friends who are in danger.

HIs showing up would have been better then.

Or maybe if, when Peter goes to visit Harry to ask for his help, Harry sees another vision of Norman and has to decide between them.

 

[pjspider1C]

The spider-man films were not written as a trilogy. They were written as individual movies. And if you think you can do a better job and write three movies at once, go right ahead. So now as audience we have to change our view on Bernard in Spider-Man 2. Big whoop. That's not hard to do. And you know what? It still works.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The spider-man films were not written as a trilogy. They were written as individual movies. And if you think you can do a better job and write three movies at once, go right ahead. So now as audience we have to change our view on Bernard in Spider-Man 2. Big whoop. That's not hard to do. And you know what? It still works.

Each movie still set up plotlines that were resolved in subsequent films. You may have noticed Harry Osborn finds the Goblin equipment in Spider-Man 2, and then uses it in Spider-Man 3.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ Well, neither Spider-Man 1 or Spider-Man 2 setup Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer and you don't seem to have a problem with that... or do you?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

^ Well, neither Spider-Man 1 or Spider-Man 2 setup Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer and you don't seem to have a problem with that... or do you?

I think everyone has a problem with that.....

 

[UltimateJustin]

It would perfectly make sense, we have them fight together and we realize Harry has learned the truth. This would make the ending a bit more powerful with the whole "You're my friend" speech by Harry. By cutting out all of Harry up until he saves the day, and then having the "friend" speech, we learn that Harry came to terms with his past and that Peter has always been his best friend. It would make the scene a lot more powerful.

No, thats worse.

 

[chaseter]

Having Bernard tell Harry Peter didn't kill his dad seems completely wrong in terms of storytelling. The conflict in Harry is this; should he help his best friend to save Mary-Jane, despite thinking he killed his father, or should he leave him to die?

For Bernard to appear and short-circuit all the drama is wrong. Harry should resolve the situation himself.

Harry should either realise that he believes Peter, or appear at the climax reluctantly to help Spidey, thus giving the whole finale more drama; is harry going to help Spidey or help kill him? Could he turn on Spidey at any minute?

OMG I had the same freaking thought enter my head the other day. Well said, I agree. Bernerd had 3 scenes in the whole trilogy and he was the one that convinced Harry to save his friends...dumb.

 

[chaseter]

^ Well, neither Spider-Man 1 or Spider-Man 2 setup Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer and you don't seem to have a problem with that... or do you?

Which was a poor attempt to make a villian directly connected to Peter/Spider-Man. Flint would have been just as effective IMO had they not f-ed with Spider-Man's origin and the foundation they themselves laid down in the first two movies by making a simple plot convenience.

 

[DieSmiling]

Having Bernard tell Harry Peter didn't kill his dad seems completely wrong in terms of storytelling. The conflict in Harry is this; should he help his best friend to save Mary-Jane, despite thinking he killed his father, or should he leave him to die?

For Bernard to appear and short-circuit all the drama is wrong. Harry should resolve the situation himself.

Harry should either realise that he believes Peter, or appear at the climax reluctantly to help Spidey, thus giving the whole finale more drama; is harry going to help Spidey or help kill him? Could he turn on Spidey at any minute?

I completely agree. One of my biggest criticisms of SM-3 is the butler scene, which comes off cheesy and ******ed, but should be left out regardless. It should just be Harry watching the news coverage at most; we shouldn't be expecting Harry to arrive, it takes all the drama out of Peter getting pounded by Sandman. Harry's arrival should have been like Han Solo coming back at the end of the original Star Wars; you kind of saw it coming but weren't really expecting it until it happened.

 

[nirvamets]

When I see Harry's death scene it makes me angry. The movie should have had a brutal fight between Venom and Harry before Venom eventually killing him. I hated the whole "venom I want you to massage my back with my glider" scene. Said it before and will say it again, 250 million dollars can buy almost everything, but apperently not a good script.

 

[Dragon]

When I see Harry's death scene it makes me angry. The movie should have had a brutal fight between Venom and Harry before Venom eventually killing him. I hated the whole "venom I want you to massage my back with my glider" scene. Said it before and will say it again, 250 million dollars can buy almost everything, but apperently not a good script.

I don't think a Harry-Venom fight was necessary and it would've made the cost of the film another 10 milloin more.

What I do think is that Harry's death could've been handled differently. The whole choreography of that sequence was off. Harry didn't have to take the hit for Peter. Peter's hands were bound- but there was more than enough give on Venom's weblines, so that Peter could've flipped out of the way. In fact, his legs were free to kick Venom during the whole scene when Venom was wailing on him. Also, Peter trying to reach for the metal piece when he should have immediately fired a webline to snag it was a total waste of time. I don't know why, in both the comics and now the film, that Peter seems to forget how to fight when he's up against Venom. Although I do like how he ultimately defeated him.

I think it would've been a better move to have Harry, similar to the comics die from exposure to the performance enhancers. And, while I note that the important factor was Harry dying to save his friends, the way that could've been done is to explain that Harry in fact knew the performance enhancers were effecting him, essentially burning his system out, and he needed treatement to rid his body of them before it was too late. So his not ridding himself of them and engaging in strenuous activity by helping Peter at the end would be his sacrifice.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I don't think a Harry-Venom fight was necessary and it would've made the cost of the film another 10 milloin more.

What I do think is that Harry's death could've been handled differently. The whole choreography of that sequence was off. Harry didn't have to take the hit for Peter. Peter's hands were bound- but there was more than enough give on Venom's weblines, so that Peter could've flipped out of the way. In fact, his legs were free to kick Venom during the whole scene when Venom was wailing on him. Also, Peter trying to reach for the metal piece when he should have immediately fired a webline to snag it was a total waste of time. I don't know why, in both the comics and now the film, that Peter seems to forget how to fight when he's up against Venom. Although I do like how he ultimately defeated him.

I think it would've been a better move to have Harry, similar to the comics die from exposure to the performance enhancers. And, while I note that the important factor was Harry dying to save his friends, the way that could've been done is to explain that Harry in fact knew the performance enhancers were effecting him, essentially burning his system out, and he needed treatement to rid his body of them before it was too late. So his not ridding himself of them and engaging in strenuous activity by helping Peter at the end would be his sacrifice.

Good call, although there is admittedly a lot of potency in Harry dying the same way as his dad, except trying to save Spider-Man this time rather than kill him.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I agree.

Except for the rape part.

Uh, yeah, that came way out of left field.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

When I see Harry's death scene it makes me angry. The movie should have had a brutal fight between Venom and Harry before Venom eventually killing him. I hated the whole "venom I want you to massage my back with my glider" scene. Said it before and will say it again, 250 million dollars can buy almost everything, but apperently not a good script.

What bothered me about Harry getting killed by Venom was the way that Venom just shrugged Harry off like it was nothing. I mean if this were Carnage, I could believe it alot more, But Venom has this twisted sense of honor. I guess perhaps you could rationalize that Venom considered Harry an impediment to killing Peter therefore no guilt, but I think it might have been nice to see a momentary reaction of bewilderment and shock from Eddie Brock instead of just casually casting Harry aside after stabbing him in the chest with the Glider.

 

[Catman]

Having Bernard tell Harry Peter didn't kill his dad seems completely wrong in terms of storytelling. The conflict in Harry is this; should he help his best friend to save Mary-Jane, despite thinking he killed his father, or should he leave him to die?

For Bernard to appear and short-circuit all the drama is wrong. Harry should resolve the situation himself.

Harry should either realise that he believes Peter, or appear at the climax reluctantly to help Spidey, thus giving the whole finale more drama; is harry going to help Spidey or help kill him? Could he turn on Spidey at any minute?

I agree with you, Kev. However, what you have to realize is that this scene is the equivalent of Alfred taking Vicki Vale to the Batcave in Burton's Batman. Both scenes are weak but they were done in order to quickly wrap things up.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I agree with you, Kev. However, what you have to realize is that this scene is the equivalent of Alfred taking Vicki Vale to the Batcave in Burton's Batman. Both scenes are weak but they were done in order to quickly wrap things up.

I see no problem in the Batcave scene.

Vicki has figured out Bruce is Batman. So what does it matter if Alfred takes her to the Batcave?

 

[Catman]

Vicki has figured out Bruce is Batman. So what does it matter if Alfred takes her to the Batcave?

I don't have a problem with the idea. It's the execution thats weak. We all know that Alfred wants Bruce to live a normal life so he's more than happy to let Vicki into the batcave but he just does it without any hesitation. That is what makes it weak. There should have been a scene where Vicki confronts Alfred and he's not sure about what to do. Just like how you said there should have been scenes where Raimi shows us that Bernard knew of what was going on!

 

[batman11]

No, thats worse.

You're right, the butler who had 3 lines in the entire trilogy up until the explanation scene was a much better choice. I think the majority of the people on this board are in agreement that either A) Harry should have come to terms with what happened by himself, or B) Harry should have had a final confrontation with Norman.

But you're right, what they chose to do was much better.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Having Bernard tell Harry Peter didn't kill his dad seems completely wrong in terms of storytelling. The conflict in Harry is this; should he help his best friend to save Mary-Jane, despite thinking he killed his father, or should he leave him to die?

For Bernard to appear and short-circuit all the drama is wrong. Harry should resolve the situation himself.

Harry should either realise that he believes Peter, or appear at the climax reluctantly to help Spidey, thus giving the whole finale more drama; is harry going to help Spidey or help kill him? Could he turn on Spidey at any minute?

I completely agree with you. The butler scene was awful.