TDK vs CA: TWS

[Ajendo]

You created an alternative reality just for yourself.

No that's what you seem to be doing and quite successfully I might add.

 

[Ajendo]

That's what you say, but the fact of the matter is Ledger is far from being the only praised element of the movie. The most praised element? Definitely. But not the sole one. Far from it.



Again that is all your own personal minority opinion. If the movie was just riding on Joker's shoulders the shine of the Joker would have worn off years ago, but here we are 6 years later and the movie is still holding the same high position it held back when it was released. If the movie was just riding on one character to do that then it would have lost steam by now with a lot of the general consensus.

The fact that it's still going strong, still regarded as not only the best Batman movie but best CBM of all time, and an influential one, too, proves the movie has a lot more strengths than just the Joker.



No they're not. They're all valid examples of celebrated movies with key characters or performances that elevate the movies. Take them out and the movies are not half as good as they are.



The only Bond movie that comes close to being as praised and celebrated as TDK is Goldfinger. It's the iconic quintessential Bond movie. Goldfinger and Oddjob are iconic cinema villains.

Furthermore Batman did not play second fiddle to the Joker in TDK. The movie not only focused on Batman's character way more than Joker, but Batman had a ot more screen time than Joker did, too.



TDK didn't try and change the game either. Not to the level it ended up doing. Nolan simply set out to make the best movie he could make. It's just another tribute to the greatness of TDK that it was such a game changer, such a landmark in the genre, when it had never intended to be.

TWS not reaching those heights is just one of many reasons why it's inferior to TDK.

Ok, so the only thing worth responding to is the fact that you point my views out to be a minority opinion which is hilarious because I haven't stated anything as fact so why you feel the need to point it out is quite strange. Let's not grasp at straws here and your views that contradict my own are equally just an opinion irrespective of it being a majority it minority shared view.

As for Bond, um, GF is a weak movie and any Bond fan worth his salt knows this. Sure, it's the movie that explicitly bashes audiences over the head with the formula and is full of iconography but the film itself is weaker than Dr.No and the infinitely superior FRWL BUT it coming close to TDK in terms if cultural appeal is a joke. Granted, TDK is IMO a better movie than GF GF and TB. However, were a WW cultural phenomenon. No batman movie ever in existence has or will ever reach the heights and impact of Bond mania that GF established. I'm going to relegate everything else you contributed in your reply as typical, time wasting and superfluous fanboy propaganda. Batman is the "best" yadda yadda yadda. Some objectivity would do you and others some good.

 

[DA_Champion]

People criticise TDK, not because they have legitimate arguments against TDK (they don't), but partly because they are contrarians, partly because it makes them feel smarter, and probably partly because Nolan fanboys might annoy them.

When somebody says that TDK is entirely average outside of Heath Ledger's performance, they are just revealing their comprehensive ignorance.

Some awards for TDK:
81st Academy Awards[5]
Best Supporting Actor Heath Ledger Won
Best Art Direction Nathan Crowley, Peter Lando Nominated
Best Cinematography Wally Pfister Nominated
Best Film Editing Lee Smith Nominated
Best Makeup John Caglione, Jr. and Conor O'Sullivan Nominated
Best Sound Editing Richard King Won
Best Sound Mixing Lora Hirschberg, Gary Rizzo and Ed Novick Nominated
Best Visual Effects Nick Davis, Chris Corbould, Tim Webber and Paul Franklin Nominated
American Film Institute Top 10 Film of the Year Warner Brothers Studios Won

In contrast, TWS will probably only get a nomination for visual effects, and nothing else. The mediocre box office reveals that it's not resonating with audiences.

************

In truth, people trying to parade their intelligence by showing off how they dislike good movies are failing from the veto. Nobody's impressed. Try and instead make unique points that others have not made.

 

[The Endless]

TWS had a weak box office? Not really considering it's a film about Captain America. Comparing Batman and Captain America's popularity is absurd.

Nobodies saying Robert Redford was the only good thing about TWS because he wasn't. He didn't completely overshadow the hero. Which is what happened with Joker and Batman. Joker didn't have a character arc. Joker didn't have any depth. No more than Pierce. They both had philosophies that they stuck to. They were static characters. The nature of the Joker and Ledger's amazing performance makes the character stand out.

Cap was the star of his own movie. Joker was the star of Batman's movie. Who denies this?

 

[Fudgie]

Cap was in the Avengers. He's got all new kinds of fame and popularity now thanks to that.

I deny Joker was the star of TDK. Oh yeah. TDK had many stars. Joker, Bats, Dent and Gordon. Joker was just the most memorable of the stars. None of Cap's supporting cast in TWS matched Oldman or Eckhart. And Winter Soldier was just a mute assassin. The competition for Cap to be the star wasn't exactly stiff heh.

Oh yeah and Joker had waaaaaay more depth than Pierce. Joker's obsession with Batman and how he connected with him as a fellow freak who makes the game fun added more humanity to Joker than Pierce and his hail Hydra baloney.

 

[DA_Champion]

Alexander Pierce obviously didn't overshadow anybody. It was a weak performance.

 

[Ajendo]

People criticise TDK, not because they have legitimate arguments against TDK (they don't), but partly because they are contrarians, partly because it makes them feel smarter, and probably partly because Nolan fanboys might annoy them.

When somebody says that TDK is entirely average outside of Heath Ledger's performance, they are just revealing their comprehensive ignorance.

Some awards for TDK:
81st Academy Awards[5]
Best Supporting Actor Heath Ledger Won
Best Art Direction Nathan Crowley, Peter Lando Nominated
Best Cinematography Wally Pfister Nominated
Best Film Editing Lee Smith Nominated
Best Makeup John Caglione, Jr. and Conor O'Sullivan Nominated
Best Sound Editing Richard King Won
Best Sound Mixing Lora Hirschberg, Gary Rizzo and Ed Novick Nominated
Best Visual Effects Nick Davis, Chris Corbould, Tim Webber and Paul Franklin Nominated
American Film Institute Top 10 Film of the Year Warner Brothers Studios Won

In contrast, TWS will probably only get a nomination for visual effects, and nothing else. The mediocre box office reveals that it's not resonating with audiences.

************

In truth, people trying to parade their intelligence by showing off how they dislike good movies are failing from the veto. Nobody's impressed. Try and instead make unique points that others have not made.

I wanted to take this seriously, I really did because there are people who just hate anything Nolan and want to annoy batman fans but in addition to the fact that there are genuine and valid reasons to opine their underwhelming views on TDK movies, to suggest otherwise so matter of factly as you have done is absolute rubbish and says more about your own ignorance than anything else, to list a bunch of awards and nominations the movie has received is not entirely without merit I'll give you that but to hold it up as some sort of definitive proof to support your argument is laughably weak. Awards? Seriously? Actors and films have recurred many awards and nominations to which many are questionable and undeserving. Try again and be serious this time, "champ".

 

[Ajendo]

Cap was in the Avengers. He's got all new kinds of fame and popularity now thanks to that.

I deny Joker was the star of TDK. Oh yeah. TDK had many stars. Joker, Bats, Dent and Gordon. Joker was just the most memorable of the stars. None of Cap's supporting cast in TWS matched Oldman or Eckhart. And Winter Soldier was just a mute assassin. The competition for Cap to be the star wasn't exactly stiff heh.

Oh yeah and Joker had waaaaaay more depth than Pierce. Joker's obsession with Batman and how he connected with him as a fellow freak who makes the game fun added more humanity to Joker than Pierce and his hail Hydra baloney.

Have you read the rubbish your coming out with?

Cap the star of his own movie? Imagine that. Who would have thought such a thing but as I said in another post, batman in every theatrical release he's had is ALWAYS outshone by his villains in his own damn movie. Look at the names you even listed, you didn't even mention Bale and with good reason. You are clearly one of those type of fanboys so please, find some sort of antidote to your ignorance. Urgh!

 

[Ajendo]

TWS had a weak box office? Not really considering it's a film about Captain America. Comparing Batman and Captain America's popularity is absurd.

Nobodies saying Robert Redford was the only good thing about TWS because he wasn't. He didn't completely overshadow the hero. Which is what happened with Joker and Batman. Joker didn't have a character arc. Joker didn't have any depth. No more than Pierce. They both had philosophies that they stuck to. They were static characters. The nature of the Joker and Ledger's amazing performance makes the character stand out.

Cap was the star of his own movie. Joker was the star of Batman's movie. Who denies this?

Precisely!

 

[The Joker]

Ok, so the only thing worth responding to is the fact that you point my views out to be a minority opinion which is hilarious because I haven't stated anything as fact so why you feel the need to point it out is quite strange. Let's not grasp at straws here and your views that contradict my own are equally just an opinion irrespective of it being a majority it minority shared view.

I'm saying it because you're claiming that Ledger's Joker is the sole factor holding TDK up to the high status it has, when that is simply not true. He is far from being the sole element of the movie that is praised. The movie would not and could not retain the status and acclaim it still has 6 years later if it was skating on the praise of a singular supporting character.

That just doesn't happen. The movie holds up because it has numerous strengths, not just the Joker.

As for Bond, um, GF is a weak movie and any Bond fan worth his salt knows this.

Another minority opinion, and a condescending one, too. I guess most of the Bond fan base is not worthy of being Bond fans. I'm a Bond fan worth my salt and I think Goldfinger is the best. You going to tell me I'm not a worthy Bond fan because I think this?

Sure, it's the movie that explicitly bashes audiences over the head with the formula and is full of iconography but the film itself is weaker than Dr.No and the infinitely superior FRWL

The movie doesn't bash the audience over the head with the formula. It establishes the formula. It's the trend setter responsible of several iconic classic Bond movie tropes.

BUT it coming close to TDK in terms if cultural appeal is a joke. Granted, TDK is IMO a better movie than GF GF and TB. However, were a WW cultural phenomenon. No batman movie ever in existence has or will ever reach the heights and impact of Bond mania that GF established.

You're joking right? Heck TDK aside I would argue Tim Burton's Batman '89 and the whole Batmania was as big of a cultural phenomenon as Goldfinger was.

I'm going to relegate everything else you contributed in your reply as typical, time wasting and superfluous fanboy propaganda. Batman is the "best" yadda yadda yadda. Some objectivity would do you and others some good.

Yeah you do that. Ignorance is bliss. After all I'm not a Bond fan worth my salt because I love Goldfinger. You're clearly the authority on who is a worthy fan and who isn't.

The irony of you preaching about fanboy propaganda after the ridiculous rants you've been making. You've been insulting and talking down to nearly every user you've disagreed with. You are the poster child of fanboy mentality. You can't handle a different P.O.V. to your own.

 

[DA_Champion]

I wanted to take this seriously, I really did because there are people who just hate anything Nolan and want to annoy batman fans but in addition to the fact that there are genuine and valid reasons to opine their underwhelming views on TDK movies, to suggest otherwise so matter of factly as you have done is absolute rubbish and says more about your own ignorance than anything else, to list a bunch of awards and nominations the movie has received is not entirely without merit I'll give you that but to hold it up as some sort of definitive proof to support your argument is laughably weak. Awards? Seriously? Actors and films have recurred many awards and nominations to which many are questionable and undeserving. Try again and be serious this time, "champ".

zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz

Explanations as to why TDK is awesome are widely available both in this thread and elsewhere, if you're interesting in experiencing a thought beyond "Heath Ledger did it himself". You can read up on the themes, the consistency, the character work, how it was different from previous CBMs, the political meaning, etc. Google is your friend.

The awards that TDK won are meaningful because it's not supposed to win awards. It's not a Woody Allen film. It doesn't idolize Liberal politics. It's not a bastardisation of the historical record. TDK is a science fiction / comic book movie, two genres that have historically been discriminated against. For TDK to win an award the bar is much higher, and it jumped over that higher bar.

 

[C. Lee]

Ahaha. Cheesy....that´s funny coming from a Marvel fan.

What's even funnier is that I just banned you.

 

[samsnee]

It amazes me how just because people have a different viewpoint of TDK, they get told they don't just get it and how deep and intellectual it is. We get it, we just don't necessarily agree with it.

No one is denying that TDK is a great movie. We may have varying degrees of how good or great. Personally, I liked Begins more because the focus of that movie was more on Batman. But it seems to me that the people who love TWS as myself don't seem to go half as defensive about that movie as people who love TDK. As Ms Marvel said, TDK doesn't need defending. Why can't people agree to just disagree?

 

[DA_Champion]

No one is denying that TDK is a great movie.

A lot of people are saying that Ledger is the only good part, for example:

Ledger is the only real good thing about TDK

 

[Ms. Marvel]

So what if people say he's the only good part about TDK? It's obviously a minority opinion and there's no need to be overly defensive about a movie nearly everybody loves. Comments like "TWS has mediocre BO so it isn't resonating with the audience" are plain unnecessary and untrue. It sounds like a knee jerk reaction to someone saying they didn't like TDK as much as you did. It's obvious TDK is better received than TWS, you don't need to attack TWS and show all the awards TDK got to prove it.

 

[samsnee]

Exactly. Joker is by far the most memorable takeaway from the movie. He just elevated everything to a whole other level that it makes the movie's flaws, and yes it does have some, seem more trivial.

For example, Iron Man is considered to be Marvel's best movie. But how much of that is attributed to how RDJ played the character? Because that movie had issues too, but again, people get sucked in by the performance that they over look them.

What I was trying to say was that there isn't one standout role in TWS. I found everyone to be on a consistent, good level, which elevated the movie as a whole. I can't think of one scene in the movie where I would take out because I didn't like how the actors played it out.

Meanwhile, I find myself fast forwarding through the ferry scenes in TDK because the acting was so awful compared to everyone else in the movie.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Every CBM has flaws and no movie is above criticism. From TDK all the way to Supergirl.

TDK is great but to say people have no legitimate criticisms for the movie isn't fair.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

People criticise TDK, not because they have legitimate arguments against TDK (they don't), but partly because they are contrarians, partly because it makes them feel smarter, and probably partly because Nolan fanboys might annoy them.

When somebody says that TDK is entirely average outside of Heath Ledger's performance, they are just revealing their comprehensive ignorance.

Some awards for TDK:
81st Academy Awards[5]
Best Supporting Actor Heath Ledger Won
Best Art Direction Nathan Crowley, Peter Lando Nominated
Best Cinematography Wally Pfister Nominated
Best Film Editing Lee Smith Nominated
Best Makeup John Caglione, Jr. and Conor O'Sullivan Nominated
Best Sound Editing Richard King Won
Best Sound Mixing Lora Hirschberg, Gary Rizzo and Ed Novick Nominated
Best Visual Effects Nick Davis, Chris Corbould, Tim Webber and Paul Franklin Nominated
American Film Institute Top 10 Film of the Year Warner Brothers Studios Won

In contrast, TWS will probably only get a nomination for visual effects, and nothing else. The mediocre box office reveals that it's not resonating with audiences.

************

In truth, people trying to parade their intelligence by showing off how they dislike good movies are failing from the veto. Nobody's impressed. Try and instead make unique points that others have not made.

Wow, the ignorance. The sheer, unbelievable ignorance.

 

[Ipodman]

Well, TDK is winning in the poll...

 

[Ms. Marvel]

To be fair I expected this to be more of a 80%/20% split in favour of TDK. TWS is not doing too bad on this poll.

 

[The Endless]

The thing is, what actually makes TDK more deep and intellectual than the likes of TWS? It has a scene where Batman is spying on everybody with an unambiguous criticism of these methods by Fox. It has a scene where Batman beats the crap out of Joker to get answers. The Joker actually lied, which is saying that torture doesn't work.

I mean, it's still very simple and on the surface. It doesn't delve into those themes any deeper than TWS, which has allegories of the CIA actually creating threats to breed fear and paranoia, and obviously the use of profiling to ascertain who could be future threats. TWS just has a more far fetched plot that is more comfortable with it's comic book roots.

The only difference is the dressing. TDK is dressed up as a super serious crime thriller that just so happens to feature Batman. TWS is dressed up as a more pulpy and at times light hearted conspiracy thriller that just so happens to feature two super soldiers, one of which has a bionic arm.

And again, comparing the box offices of a ****ing Batman, world wide icon for 70 odd years, to Captain America, a b-lister at best and with a disadvantage internationally by name alone... is beyond absurd.

I have no horse in this race. I like both films equally. And i think both films have areas that are better or worse than each other. For example, the action in TWS is on a completely different level. It's not comparable. As a Batman fan it is my greatest wish to see Batman kick ass like Cap did. Also i think the dialogue and character interactions in TWS are on the whole, much better. It doesn't seem like characters are monologuing AT each other, but having actual back and forth conversations with each other.

But then overall the acting performances, overall story and cinematography in TDK is superior to TWS. The scene with Joker hanging his head out of the cop car like a dog is just... wow. The finale with Batman, Dent and Gordon on the rooftop is insanely intense. Great ending.

For me there is things each film could take away from each other to improve. It just seems to me some people think TDK is flawless? Don't be stupid. There is many areas it could improve in. Making it's titular character an actual bad ass is one of them. Batman actively sucks in his own movie. Cap rocks the **** out of his own movie.

 

[Flint Marko]

In contrast, TWS will probably only get a nomination for visual effects, and nothing else. The mediocre box office reveals that it's not resonating with audiences.

This might be the most blatantly incorrect statement I think I've seen on here in a while.
I had no problem with anything you said, and have gone on record to say I think the TDK is a better a film, but then you said this.
Surely you don't believe that. There's nothing "mediocre" about half a billion dollars and counting. People are turning out in droves to see it, and it's getting rave reviews from almost everyone, so of course it's "resonating" with people.
There's no need to say ignorant, baseless things about one film to build up another. That's about as petty as it gets.

 

[samsnee]

Well, TDK is winning in the poll...

And it's a scientific poll on top of that!

 

[Ms. Marvel]

This might be the most blatantly incorrect statement I think I've seen on here in a while.
I had no problem with anything you said, and have gone on record to say I think the TDK is a better a film, but then you said this.
Surely you don't believe that. There's nothing "mediocre" about half a billion dollars and counting. People are turning out in droves to see it, and it's getting rave reviews from almost everyone, so of course it's "resonating" with people.
There's no need to say ignorant, baseless things about one film to build up another. That's about as petty as it gets.

Especially since TDK doesn't need to be "built up".

 

[starkresilient]

I think The Winter Soldier is a better movie. Apart from Joker I didn't enjoy TDK.