TDK vs CA: TWS

[Ajendo]

I'm saying it because you're claiming that Ledger's Joker is the sole factor holding TDK up to the high status it has, when that is simply not true.

Truth doesn't come into it. It's an opinion and one that I stand firmly by. Try actually reading what I've been saying; I can't make it any clearer, I said TDK is a good movie but Ledger's performance is a standout that elevates the film overall. Ledger is the first thing that springs to mind when the subject of TDK movie comes up and unsurprisingly not batman himself.

He is far from being the sole element of the movie that is praised.

Point out to me where I said this. Please, if you're going to quote or accuse me if saying things have the decency to be accurate and not fabricate statements. I have said and I maintain that Ledger is the main reason why the movie is as well received as it is not the sole reason. He's the main draw for two reasons, one it's the joker as the villain, arguably the most iconic comic book villain ever and secondly, Ledger did a Daniel Craig and knocked it out the park, silencing his detractors in the process.

The movie would not and could not retain the status and acclaim it still has 6 years later if it was skating on the praise of a singular supporting character.

But again, that's not a point I made. You're creating and falsifying comments on my behalf and arguing them. I think it would be easier if you looked in the mirror and just had a for and against conversation with yourself.

That just doesn't happen. The movie holds up because it has numerous strengths, not just the Joker.

Yes but as I have repeatedly said...urgh surely, you've got the picture by now of what I have and haven't said.

Another minority opinion, and a condescending one, too.

Ok first of all minority or majority it doesn't change the FACT that it's an opinion. Secondly, the majority of the Bond fan base in which I am well entrenched will tell you that GF is an overrated movie and is often cited by those who lack any real knowledge of the Bond movies and media journalists who either want to act like they know something or those that generate a wage from trashy tabloid outlets.

I guess most of the Bond fan base is not worthy of being Bond fans.

Yes because you're the mouthpiece and are so clued up on what the majority of the fan base know. You know nothing.

I'm a Bond fan worth my salt and I think Goldfinger is the best. You going to tell me I'm not a worthy Bond fan because I think this?

In this instance I concede I was wrong to have said that. Fortunately for you you THINK GF is the best, it doesn't mean that it is and the majority of Bond fans will agree that it is not.

The movie doesn't bash the audience over the head with the formula. It establishes the formula. It's the trend setterresponsible of several iconic classic Bond movie tropes.

Arguments have and are being discussed and evaluated determining the validity of GF establishing the formula because to be honest, everything that GF did had already been done in FRWL with the exception of a tricked out Bond car. Truth is, America and other markets caught the Bond bug with GF. The movie itself had followed a preexisting formula already set up in FRWL with the exception of the tricked out vehicle as mentioned.

You're joking right? Heck TDK aside I would argue Tim Burton's Batman '89 and the whole Batmania was as big of a cultural phenomenon as Goldfinger was.

You're either drunk or stoned if not both if you believe that.

The irony of you preaching about fanboy propaganda after the ridiculous rants you've been making.You've been insulting and talking down to nearly every user you've disagreed with. You are the poster child of fanboy mentality. You can't handle a different P.O.V. to your own.

Ridiculous rants, talking down?? You should go back a few pages and read the first post I made in this thread. I clearly stated my opinion without talking down to or insulting a single person but you and a few others take serious offence to people who aren't as ardent supporters and challenge your views on this matter and if I'm being insulted as I was firstly, then you can bet your bottom bat-dollar or red deer puint that I'll gladly give back what is being dished out. Simple.
And again, you convey your lack of ability to read what is in front of you because I have no problem with people who disagree with me. I said my piece and left it at that until I was disrespected for my pov on the matter. You'd do well to read more carefully in future. I'm not interested in changing anyone's opinion but I'll defend my own. That you can be damn sure of.

 

[Green Goblin]

I do love TDK, best CBM IMO but some of it's fans pretend there is absolutely nothing to like. One thing about TDK I didn't like was Gotham. Why make it a clean, modern city when we got a comic book faithful version but still a realistic version in BB?

TWS was very good, but TDK isn't on par. I think most of the plot is fantastic but some of the performances are not fantastic but still good (Chris Evans) and Nick Fury's death never really had that much emotion. Also I thought TDK's climax was better political/social commentary, Killing people because of voting trends and such was too far fetched for me but still really cool. TWS and Pierce were very good protagonists but not on the level of Harvey Dent or The Joker

 

[Tony Stark]

People criticise TDK, not because they have legitimate arguments against TDK (they don't), but partly because they are contrarians, partly because it makes them feel smarter, and probably partly because Nolan fanboys might annoy them.

Typical of what I talk about people trolling telling them their opinions are wrong through ad hominem attacks.

 

[Green Goblin]

The more popular a movie is, the more overrated, the more people give it slack.

 

[samsnee]

I hate anything popular. That's why I only watch movies by Uwe Boll and eat spinach.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

 

[OcStat]

I thought Pierce was a cool character. Until he blows away his maid, he does a great job of keeping you wondering if he's on the level or not. The scene with him and the Captain after Nick "dies" was very well done. Steve doesn't say much but you can tell he's paying close attention. Pierce is intimidating but he also comes off very sincere. But the distrust traveling both ways is palpable.

And then the elevator fight is right after that.

And then after that Steve single handedly takes down a SHIELD warship.

 

[jmc]

Anytime there's a knock out performance in a well written movies said performance is always going to be what people take away from the experience. There's honestly nothing wrong with it not being the lead, I've never understood why people think Batman (or any lead character) has to be the thing people take away from the film. There's an entire mythology that goes along with most of these characters which in many ways helps define who the character is, characters who are just as important in the heroes tale as the hero him/herself.

 

[Hammer!]

The more popular a movie is, the more overrated, the more people give it slack.

I hate how everyone bastardizes Avatar for having a 'traditional' film story, when nobody says the same about the first Star Wars. They both were equally 'guilty' in installing all of their main story elements around tired, and tried threads and motifs...in futuristic, sci-fi settings. The inconsistencies in the average movie patron.

 

[The Joker]

Truth doesn't come into it. It's an opinion and one that I stand firmly by. Try actually reading what I've been saying; I can't make it any clearer, I said TDK is a good movie but Ledger's performance is a standout that elevates the film overall. Ledger is the first thing that springs to mind when the subject of TDK movie comes up and unsurprisingly not batman himself.

So what if Ledger is the first thing people think of over Batman? Hannibal Lecter is the first thing people think of in The Silence of the Lambs. That doesn't diminish Jodie Foster's great Oscar winning performance in it.

Point out to me where I said this. Please, if you're going to quote or accuse me if saying things have the decency to be accurate and not fabricate statements. I have said and I maintain that Ledger is the main reason why the movie is as well received as it is not the sole reason. He's the main draw for two reasons, one it's the joker as the villain, arguably the most iconic comic book villain ever and secondly, Ledger did a Daniel Craig and knocked it out the park, silencing his detractors in the process.

Fair enough. I hold my hand up to crossing wires on that one.

But again, that's not a point I made. You're creating and falsifying comments on my behalf and arguing them. I think it would be easier if you looked in the mirror and just had a for and against conversation with yourself.

There you go again with the patronizing talking down tone. I'm saying the movie could not be as acclaimed as it is, and still is several years later, solely or mainly based on the performance of one of the supporting actors. Period.

Ok first of all minority or majority it doesn't change the FACT that it's an opinion. Secondly, the majority of the Bond fan base in which I am well entrenched will tell you that GF is an overrated movie and is often cited by those who lack any real knowledge of the Bond movies and media journalists who either want to act like they know something or those that generate a wage from trashy tabloid outlets.

I do not believe that for a second. I don't believe that the majority of the Bond fan base feels that way. It would be all over the net if the majority were of that mind set.

Over 25'000 fans participated in a poll to vote for the greatest Bond moment of all time, and Goldfinger's laser scene trumped the list: http://movies.ndtv.com/hollywood/sh...d-goldfinger-voted-greatest-007-moment-312516

It's all over several of the AFI's lists including:

AFI's 100 Years...100 Thrills — #71

AFI's 100 Years...100 Heroes and Villains:
Auric Goldfinger — #49 Villain

AFI's 100 Years...100 Movie Quotes:
"A Martini. Shaken, not stirred." — #90

AFI's 100 Years...100 Songs:
"Goldfinger" — #53

It has been homaged in so many things, from movies like True Lies, to The Simpsons. It's the most iconic quintessential Bond movie. The best. I don't believe your claim for a second that the majority of the Bond fan base think it's overrated. No way. If they did it would have fallen from grace a long time ago, and would not still be considered one of the greats, if not the greatest.

Yes because you're the mouthpiece and are so clued up on what the majority of the fan base know. You know nothing.

Says the guy who tries to dictate what Bond fans are worth something.

In this instance I concede I was wrong to have said that.

Thank you.

Fortunately for you you THINK GF is the best, it doesn't mean that it is and the majority of Bond fans will agree that it is not.

It doesn't mean they will disagree either. In fact given the status GF has held for 50 years, it's either considered one of the best or the best by the majority. No doubt about it.

Arguments have and are being discussed and evaluated determining the validity of GF establishing the formula because to be honest, everything that GF did had already been done in FRWL with the exception of a tricked out Bond car.

Really? So the bantering/antagonistic Bond/Q relationship was in FRWL? It was the first of the series showing Bond relying heavily on technology. The brain/brawn villain combo etc.

FRWL didn't establish the actual formula and template that the series would follow. No way.

You're either drunk or stoned if not both if you believe that.

Neither. I'm a realist.

But thanks for proving I'm right again about your condescending insulting manner.

Ridiculous rants, talking down??

Yes and yes. Your post here alone is ample proof of that.

You should go back a few pages and read the first post I made in this thread. I clearly stated my opinion without talking down to or insulting a single person but you and a few others take serious offence to people who aren't as ardent supporters and challenge your views on this matter and if I'm being insulted as I was firstly, then you can bet your bottom bat-dollar or red deer puint that I'll gladly give back what is being dished out. Simple.

Only one person on the TDK side was acting out of turn, and C. Lee has rightfully banned him. Nobody else has taken "serious offence" or been rude and insulting. But you have. Many times. You're obviously insecure at an opposing P.O.V.

And again, you convey your lack of ability to read what is in front of you because I have no problem with people who disagree with me.

"Have you read the rubbish your coming out with?"

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28513713&postcount=358

"Really? Wake up and stop dreaming."

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28512941&postcount=331

"Thanks for thinking clearly and not being an over zealous biased fanatic."

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28512969&postcount=333

You either talk down to or insult those who you don't agree with.

I said my piece and left it at that until I was disrespected for my pov on the matter.

Only one person did that. Space Ghost.

You'd do well to read more carefully in future.

I can read just fine thanks.

I'm not interested in changing anyone's opinion

I never said you were.

but I'll defend my own. That you can be damn sure of.

By talking down to and insulting others. Nothing to be proud of.

 

[The Batman]

I think Goldfinger is somewhat overrated, and even I recognize that its pretty much considered THE Bond movie.

FRWL did not create the Bond formula at all. In fact, its pretty atypical of the typical Bond style: No over the top villain with some weird physical quirk, no overreliance on gadgets, no volcano lairs, and no end battle thats essentially a giant shootout. Just a simple spy thriller about Bond trying to get a dull machine while three glorified henchmen are pliotting to kill him.

And that's what makes it the best Bond Film. t:

 

[Hammer!]

As a hardcore Bond fan I agree that while having some of the more memorable elements throughout the entire series, GF is a tad overrated. The Terrence Young Bond films, From Russia With Love and Dr. No, were much better IMO. I also liked Lewis Gilbert's other Bond effort You Only Live Twice just as much as GF.

Though Young's Thunderball would probably get my vote for most overrated Bond...

 

[Ms. Marvel]

GF is brilliant.

At the end of the day, there is no point in saying "TDK isn't as good without the Joker" because he IS a big part of the movie. You can say it about practically every movie. I think someone already said this but Star Wars wouldn't be as good without Darth Vader, the X-Men movies (imo) wouldn't be as good without Magneto, etc.

 

[Tony Stark]

Anytime there's a knock out performance in a well written movies said performance is always going to be what people take away from the experience. There's honestly nothing wrong with it not being the lead, I've never understood why people think Batman (or any lead character) has to be the thing people take away from the film. There's an entire mythology that goes along with most of these characters which in many ways helps define who the character is, characters who are just as important in the heroes tale as the hero him/herself.

I don't mind that the Joker was a key element or even Dent for that matter, however Bruce/Batman completely took a backseat in TDK, which wasn't good.

Part of the problem is that Maggie Gylenhaal wasn't any better than Katie Holmes, in fact in a lot of ways she was worse. There was zero chemistry with her and Bale and what should have been a shocking moment when she died felt blasé.

 

[Shikamaru]

Bruce/Batman didn't take a backseat at all. He gets more screen time and development overall than the Joker. It's just Ledger's performance that gives that impression.

 

[Fudgie]

I don't mind that the Joker was a key element or even Dent for that matter, however Bruce/Batman completely took a backseat in TDK, which wasn't good.

Part of the problem is that Maggie Gylenhaal wasn't any better than Katie Holmes, in fact in a lot of ways she was worse. There was zero chemistry with her and Bale and what should have been a shocking moment when she died felt blasé.

Rachel's death was aces and one of the most shocking moments in a comic book movie for sure. She wasn't meant to have chemistry with Bale because she wasn't meant to be the gal for Bruce in the end. She knew they weren't right for each other and that's why she went with Dent.

No way Jose did Batman take a back seat in TDK. Practically everything that happens in the movie happens because of Batman. From the copycats to Joker's hunt for him and whole psycho obsession with him to Bruce setting up Dent as the new hero of Gotham. Joker just had a huge scene stealing performance. Nobody could compete with it. He has like less screen time than the others, and he still eats more of the scenery. But that's what you get with a character like Joker. Large than life.

 

[Thoix]

Rachel's death was aces and one of the most shocking moments in a comic book movie for sure. She wasn't meant to have chemistry with Bale because she wasn't meant to be the gal for Bruce in the end. She knew they weren't right for each other and that's why she went with Dent.

No way Jose did Batman take a back seat in TDK. Practically everything that happens in the movie happens because of Batman. From the copycats to Joker's hunt for him and whole psycho obsession with him to Bruce setting up Dent as the new hero of Gotham. Joker just had a huge scene stealing performance. Nobody could compete with it. He has like less screen time than the others, and he still eats more of the scenery. But that's what you get with a character like Joker. Large than life.

I was literally typing this exact same post until I thought some one else may already have and ended up doing better than me. With a simple press of F5, I was correct. :P

 

[The Batman]

She wasn't meant to have chemistry with Bale because she wasn't meant to be the gal for Bruce in the end.

I see this statement a lot on the Batman boards, and I don't think Nolan/Goyer/etc. ever said that was their intention.

 

[OcStat]

I always thought the Dawes death would have carried a little more weight if they kept Katie Holmes. I don't really care for recasting...especially if your just going to blow the character up anyway. Maggie might be a better actress,but I don't think Katie did a terrible job in the first movie, and the role in TDK had nothing Holmes couldn't of done.

 

[Fudgie]

I was literally typing this exact same post until I thought some one else may already have and ended up doing better than me. With a simple press of F5, I was correct. :P

Woot. Great minds.

I see this statement a lot on the Batman boards, and I don't think Nolan/Goyer/etc. ever said that was their intention.

Heh well they ain't gonna come out and say they cast someone who would have no chemistry with Bale are they. It's obvious the way the wrote the character and her interact with Bruce. Rachel was like distancing herself from Bruce more. 'Don't make me your one hope for a normal life' and all that.

It would truly suck if Rachel was supposed to be the one for him and they had no chemistry. That would be a fail. But that wasn't the way Nolan was goin' here so it was all good. That was like the tragedy of her death. She died and Bruce thinks his one chance for happiness died, and her death tore Dent apart.

Double whammy of emotion there. That's why her death was so aces.

 

[jmc]

I don't mind that the Joker was a key element or even Dent for that matter, however Bruce/Batman completely took a backseat in TDK, which wasn't good.

Part of the problem is that Maggie Gylenhaal wasn't any better than Katie Holmes, in fact in a lot of ways she was worse. There was zero chemistry with her and Bale and what should have been a shocking moment when she died felt blasé.

Bruce didn't take a back seat at all, I don't know how in good conscious anyone can say that given the film is about people's response to Bruce's actions. TDK is essentially a 3-man lead film with Batman, Dent and Gordon, the overlapping element that unites them all is The Joker. If you're suggesting that the story isn't specifically about him then that we can agree on because it's far more about Dent taking over than it is about Bruce's struggles with being Batman. To suggest Bruce takes a back seat however is kind of absurd.

 

[C. Lee]

When I hear this......

My movie is better than your movie.

My movie is more fun than your movie.

My movie is more intellectual than your movie.

My movie made more money than your movie.

My movie won more awards than your movie.


I wonder....exactly what part of it did you act in, write, produce, direct, build sets, work the camera, move the lights, sew the clothes...........

 

[Victarion]

I wonder if you even like your movie. When I hear some of that.

 

[Bullseye1]

When I hear this......

My movie is better than your movie.

My movie is more fun than your movie.

My movie is more intellectual than your movie.

My movie made more money than your movie.

My movie won more awards than your movie.


I wonder....exactly what part of it did you act in, write, produce, direct, build sets, work the camera, move the lights, sew the clothes...........

Agreed.

As to the poll I enjoyed both movies immensely for different reasons. But if I were to pick one it would be Winter Soldier. The lead character is not over shadowed by the protagonist. Haven recently rewatched Begins I prefer it over TDK as Bruce is front and center in that one moreso than TDK. It was probably more comic like and less grounded that TDK though.

 

[Bullseye1]

Bruce didn't take a back seat at all, I don't know how in good conscious anyone can say that given the film is about people's response to Bruce's actions. TDK is essentially a 3-man lead film with Batman, Dent and Gordon, the overlapping element that unites them all is The Joker. If you're suggesting that the story isn't specifically about him then that we can agree on because it's far more about Dent taking over than it is about Bruce's struggles with being Batman. To suggest Bruce takes a back seat however is kind of absurd.

I agree with this to an extent. I also prefered the character of Harvey Dent/two Face more than the Joker as it was a much more interesting story arc.