TDK vs CA: TWS

TDK or TWS?

  • The Dark Knight

  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier


Results are only viewable after voting.
A lot of people act like it simply failed, period.

I don´t understand. A movie with almost 3 hours fails in terms of story and yet people are hooked to it and give it a very high rating? So what were they watching that was so amazing? Bale´s hair? Catwoman´s ass? How can you sit through an almost 3 hour long film with a story that fails and still love it?

You´re still not making sense.

We're not talking about a lot of people though - we're talking about the guy who said it failed for him on a story level, followed by you presenting BO numbers & critic's reviews to disprove his opinion. That doesn't make sense to me.

On an overall level, yes - TDKR was a success, critically and financially. Majority of people seemed to really like it. That doesn't stamp out one's personal opinion on how it told its story. It's not so cut-and-dry, like a checklist. Especially in an art like movies, that are mostly bent on stirring emotions and thoughts. That's pretty much all I'm getting at.
 
I'd say movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Matrix had great endings.

What was so great about Batman killing Two Face then running from the police?

Yeah,I'll be honest,the concept (Batman takes the fall for Dent) never really impressed me.But I hoped they'd do something interesting with it.Having Bruce become a recluse for 8 years wasn't really the most exciting option they could've gone with at the end of it all.
 
We're not talking about a lot of people though - we're talking about the guy who said it failed for him on a story level, followed by you presenting BO numbers & critic's reviews to disprove his opinion. That doesn't make sense to me.

I said " It would be a fallacy to say any of the Nolan´s Batman movies failed"

You answered to that statement. You basically said that´s not a fallacy to say that those movies failed. It doesn´t matter if the other guy was talking about the story or whatever. You answered to me, and i didn´t mention story or anything in especific.

You´re free to say "i don´t like this". But when you act like something is a failure, you´re entering in a whole different territory.
 
I said " It would be a fallacy to say any of the Nolan´s Batman movies failed"

You answered to that statement. You basically said that´s not a fallacy to say that those movies failed. It doesn´t matter if the other guy was talking about the story or whatever. You answered to me, and i didn´t mention story or anything in especific.

You´re free to say "i don´t like this". But when you act like something is a failure, you´re entering in a whole different territory.

Whether the story failed or not is a matter of opinion. Nothing wrong with someone saying they felt the story failed. Has nothing to do with the film's box office or even critical/audience reception. It's just an individual's opinion and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
It's unfortunate, and odd, but it seems like a few people who are really into Nolan's movies feel the need to let Marvel fans know why they are wrong for whatever Nolan film is not being their favorite CBM.

I've been reading Marvel books and Batman and a few other DC titles...since I could look at pictures, before I could even read. So it doesn't bother me any. And I thoroughly enjoy The Dark Knight Trilogy. But I can enjoy other comic book movies more without trying to stir up dust with those who prefer the former. Can't understand why others feel it's necessary.

Bale did an OK good as Batman. His best performance as the character for me are the first and third movies. I don't think The Dark Knight is not[/] about Batman. But his character does seem to take the backseat so to speak. There's different challenges to portraying Bruce Wayne/Batman and Steve Rogers/Captain America. This is not to say one character is tougher than the other, or one actor does a better job, but in his 3 appearances as Cap, Chris Evans has embodied the character more to me than Bale ever did.

And as one who has read both characters in their source material for years, I think I have the experience to make that claim.
 
So a movie ruined your perception of a comic book character? This does not make sense. I mean it is still a comic book character first and foremost. :woot:

Kind of a long story...got into college, became an entirely different human being, majored in film studies and history, my tastes for thematics and story morales completely changed. I never followed characters are closely as Bats, Spidey, and the X men before, but dabbled in things that interested me now that were heavily relevant to analyzing film and history in general like a Cap, Thor, Iron Fist, and Jonah Hex.

Saw TDKR and thought...wow, I legit hated that movie. I...I don't think I like Batman anymore. The elements I related/connected with the character, I grew out of. I found myself strongly disagreeing with the political and social undertones the comics and films were embedded in. And as a Nolan fan, I could tell his heart wasn't in the movie at all; he did it for pure contractual reasons. Detesting a film with Batman caused me to quit reading comics for 15 months. When I relapsed, I came to the conclusion that I love comics and many of the heroes that occupy it. I just didn't like Batman. Can't get through his comics or even the movies I liked anymore because of the persistent reminder of how pissed off Rises made me feel. I've quit trying.
 
But Evans doesn´t have to do much besides looking good and talking like a regular calm dude. There´s not much for him to play. Someone asked me if in the comics Captain is also not very interesting or if the problem was Evans´s lack of presence and charisma. I couldn´t answer because i don´t read Captain comics. But i´m curious about that too.
 
Evans does a pretty good job as Cap. He is believable as a genuinely good guy.
 
Yeah. That´s not an easy task. I wonder how many actors would be able to pull that off.
 
With a character as dull as Captain America played by an average actor i wish the movie had been about someone else. Lol.

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion you haven't read to many Cap comics...

Edit: Sorry missed your last comment. Read Brubaker's run it's dope.
 
Kind of a long story...got into college, became an entirely different human being, majored in film studies and history, my tastes for thematics and story morales completely changed. I never followed characters are closely as Bats, Spidey, and the X men before, but dabbled in things that interested me now that were heavily relevant to analyzing film and history in general like a Cap, Thor, Iron Fist, and Jonah Hex.

Saw TDKR and thought...wow, I legit hated that movie. I...I don't think I like Batman anymore. The elements I related/connected with the character, I grew out of. I found myself strongly disagreeing with the political and social undertones the comics and films were embedded in. And as a Nolan fan, I could tell his heart wasn't in the movie at all; he did it for pure contractual reasons. Detesting a film with Batman caused me to quit reading comics for 15 months. When I relapsed, I came to the conclusion that I love comics and many of the heroes that occupy it. I just didn't like Batman. Can't get through his comics or even the movies I liked anymore because of the persistent reminder of how pissed off Rises made me feel. I've quit trying.

Interesting stuff.
 
Why do I have a sneaking suspicion you haven't read to many Cap comics...

Edit: Sorry missed your last comment. Read Brubaker's run it's dope.

What´s dope? It´s like a drug or something?

My english isn´t very good.
 
I said " It would be a fallacy to say any of the Nolan´s Batman movies failed"

You answered to that statement. You basically said that´s not a fallacy to say that those movies failed. It doesn´t matter if the other guy was talking about the story or whatever. You answered to me, and i didn´t mention story or anything in especific.

You´re free to say "i don´t like this". But when you act like something is a failure, you´re entering in a whole different territory.

Well yeah, I answered to your statement, which was an answer to Raiden's statement about story. Didn't think you were quoting him and using it as a jumping off point for something entirely different.

Regardless, it seems we generally agree but have been interested in discussing two different points, so whatevs.
 
Because i haven´t. I gave up after 3 or 4 issues. Couldn´t take the dullness. But i tried.

Was it Brubaker? If not I'd give that a go if you ever give Cap another shot since it's by far the best take of the character and a drastic change to the Cap Marvel published the previous forty years. If not, then the character just might not be for you.
 
What´s dope? It´s like a drug or something?

My english isn´t very good.

It's a word often used in reference to certain drugs but has become a somewhat popular synonym recently for "awesome" and so on.
 
Was it Brubaker? If not I'd give that a go if you ever give Cap another shot since it's by far the best take of the character and a drastic change to the Cap Marvel published the previous forty years. If not, then the character just might not be for you.

I don´t remember. But i remember it had the same scene with peggy in the hospital. And then Captain went to vietnam or something like that. It was actually cool.
 
But Evans doesn´t have to do much besides looking good and talking like a regular calm dude. There´s not much for him to play. Someone asked me if in the comics Captain is also not very interesting or if the problem was Evans´s lack of presence and charisma. I couldn´t answer because i don´t read Captain comics. But i´m curious about that too.

Bale has to play Bruce Wayne, a character who, on film, through the course of his life represses his ow n self to become a seperate entity. A symbol for the whole city, as the films put it. Bruce Wayne himself is acting, when he's out if that cowl. Batman is who he truly is, at least during the The Dark Knight, the film in question. I'd say the movie deals with his struggle in deciding whether he truly wants to live his life that way and what happens when we needs to (actually a trend in super hero sequels, Spider-Man 2, Superman 2, The Winter Soldier, Iron Man 3, Batman Returns? [Been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall that being part of Bruce's relationship with Selina]).

Evans character has to be believable as the guy who draws a line, and doesn't compromise to get the job done, compared to (Nolan's) Batman who is a "do whatever it takes to get the job done" kind of dude. Steve Rogers is as much his own man as he is the Captain America persona. But the man has nothing left of his old life, he has to be the Captain 24/7. He has to decide what his uniform is going to represent to him, his whole country. It's maybe a little more subdued, but it isn't a lack of charisma or presence. Staying calm in the face of his trials is part of the character, he was a soldier, and he was made to lead; Batman loses his temper a little more often. He volunteered to be what he is, but not to be the only one there is. That's another layer to the character.

Maybe you perceive him as uninteresting but you can't say the character actually is not interesting.

And that's without even going into the comic books, which I assure you is a whole another beast.
 
Bale has to play Bruce Wayne, a character who, on film, through the course of his life represses his ow n self to become a seperate entity. A symbol for the whole city, as the films put it. Bruce Wayne himself is acting, when he's out if that cowl. Batman is who he truly is, at least during the The Dark Knight, the film in question. I'd say the movie deals with his struggle in deciding whether he truly wants to live his life that way and what happens when we needs to (actually a trend in super hero sequels, Spider-Man 2, Superman 2, The Winter Soldier, Iron Man 3, Batman Returns? [Been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall that being part of Bruce's relationship with Selina]).

Evans character has to be believable as the guy who draws a line, and doesn't compromise to get the job done, compared to (Nolan's) Batman who is a "do whatever it takes to get the job done" kind of dude. Steve Rogers is as much his own man as he is the Captain America persona. But the man has nothing left of his old life, he has to be the Captain 24/7. He has to decide what his uniform is going to represent to him, his whole country. It's maybe a little more subdued, but it isn't a lack of charisma or presence. Staying calm in the face of his trials is part of the character, he was a soldier, and he was made to lead; Batman loses his temper a little more often. He volunteered to be what he is, but not to be the only one there is. That's another layer to the character.

Maybe you perceive him as uninteresting but you can't say the character actually is not interesting.

And that's without even going into the comic books, which I assure you is a whole another beast.

How much of the film was taken from the comics?
 
Was never the biggest fan of nolan's batman(looking forward to what comes next). But the films won me over in their craftsmanship.

Two scenes in particular
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[YT]7e6JJWXRFGA[/YT]

As much fun as I had with TWS, nothing in the film compares for me personally. TDK was crafted in a way that really took the viewing audience for a loop, experience wise. I think people fall back on their short hand memories of films and momentum too often...at lot is lost in the face of simply watching a film again.
 
How much of the film was taken from the comics?

Well, it isn't like 300 or Sin City, you know, literally ripped from the pages, but it takes heavy influence from Brubaker's run which started ran from '04 to '11 (a very long run far as modern comics are concerned). Specifically the first 12 issues or so, dealing with the Winter Soldier.

There's plenty of original elements to the narrative and a few bits taken from other stories (Hydra doesn't play much into those 12 issues, but sleeper/double agents do, terrorist organizations that front as companies, etc.)

The tone, choices in the action scenes, directly out of the book. And Steve's personal struggles, (dealing with being an enemy of the state comes up later in Bru's run). The movie is in a unique position because Stan Lee brought Cap out of the ice 50 years ago, he's seen a lot since he woke up. But time moves a lot slower in the books, with a shifting timeline, so some storylines when they chose to (and when it is pulled off well) still are able to bring in that man out of time aspect, even though he's been awake for a while.

In the MCU, these are all his first experiences with a new world. Almost a double edged sword, because in the books he's been awake for so long when Bucky comes back and it hits him very hard. In the movies it does as well, but he's been awake maybe a year or two? The movies will have to get creative with some villains because it takes away from Cap to bring back to many element s from his original time period, kind of like when Superman, "The Last Krpyonian", has 13 other Kryptonians running around (One reason, unfortunately, I don't think the Red Skull should come back, unless it is as a grand threat in a future Avengers film). But the movie adapted that part of the story exceptionally well. And the main objective for Steve in both mediums was waking Bucky up as well. And the Winter Soldier in the books has grown into a very compelling character in his own right, something the MCU can possibly pull from in the future.

The Dark Knight was able to create a unique original tale taken from decades of stories, they had a lot of liberty to take that classic confrontation which everyone knows, Batman vs. The Joker and expand on it. The Winter Soldier is the most recent comic storyline to be adapted to film in the MCU, so the focus there was probably more to do it the justice it deserves, putting it on the big screen for the first time, and they can expand the character as we move forward. A benefit of the universe building episodic nature of the MCU franchise.

Two scenes in particular
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The interrogation scene is top notch.

When I saw TDK in the theatres I was literally on the edge of my seat the whole time. (Alternatively in the Winter Soldier I guess you could say I was blown back; two different forms of adrenaline in the film making, haha.)

I was so invested in the narrative that I forgot they showed the scene of Joker in his jail cell in the trailers, and thought they actually killed Gordon. When Joker is escalating the weaponry in the Dent transport/tunnel sequence I felt like I was actually in Gotham, thinking "where is the Batman?" with everyone else. Followed by his reveal in the Tumbler, crashing into that garbage truck I was ready to cheer.

On top of all that it was very heated in the theatre, literally, as the AC unit broke, so I was practically building a sweat on top of all the intensity that film contains. It was a while ride.
 
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The fact that TWS was about Captain America, and TDK, Batman was a secondary character.

That's not a plus, it just is.

You know, TWS takes place in daytime, and TDK at night, maybe you think that's a plus.
 
I rewatched the movie recently.

The interrogation scene between Batman and Joker is incredible.
 
You have nothing, nothing to threaten me with! Nothing to do with all your strenght!!
 

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